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2nd "law" violations => Heat to mechanical energy conversion => Topic started by: Pirate88179 on November 03, 2009, 07:27:42 AM
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Electricme (Jim) has come up with a new and novel twist to engine design. I started this topic for him.
Bill
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@ All:
His original designs as posted can be viewed here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7769.700
Bill
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At Bill,
Thank you again my good friend, for doing this for me I appreciate this very much indeed.
***** ***** ***** *****
TOO EVERYONE WHO READS THE INFORMATION ON THIS FORUM
THIS ENGINE WHICH I HAVE DESIGNED, TODAY I HAVE FREELY GIVEN TO THE WORLD
on this day Tuesday the 3rd of November 2009, which just happens to be Melbourne cup day in Australia
I electricme present
The
DUDGEON ENGINE
In honor of my deceased father Mr BOB Dudgeon, who's occupation was a humble motor mechanic.
This engine wipes away forever the notion that the humble 4 stroke engine is locked up with a long crankshaft, that it must be forever be run in a 2 revolution cycle.
I HAVE THROWN AWAY THE CRANKSHAFT AS WE ALL HAVE KNOWN IT ;D
I HAVE ALSO THROWN AWAY THE CAMSHAFT ;D
I will make even more outstanding claims that Will border on the absolute impossible, but it will be verified by mechanical engineers who examine my engine with an open mind.
WHAT ELSE WILL IT BE ABLE TO DO
The actual 4 stroke cycle is built into a revolving flywheel as a deeply machined groove, this groove allows the engine designer to add in to the working of this engine the usual 4 stroke principle on a 2 revolution of the crankshaft but combines it to a SINGLE revolution of the flywheel. ;D
To my knowledge, this has never been achieved anywhere. :)
I also claim that the same principle can be used to have 2 complete spark plug fireing of a single spark plug, by designing the deep groove to accommodate this, just double up the high and lows of the deep groove. ;)
That's just for starters.
This engine will run on petrol, diesel, paint thinners, eather, HHO even cooking oil, as long as you raise the compression enough or alter the timing allowing it to do so.
I also have NEVER made this engine, nor made any model of it, I simply have no desire to do so as strange as that may seem.
Below I present the only drawing of it, the engineers of the world can take it from this point onwards, make it work, redesign it to their hearts desire if they so wish.
In the next few pages I will explain how it works, step by step, I encourage everyone to copy and print out what they feel free to use to make one of their own. There are NO measurements, you just go from scratch, that way YOU will be the one who has the success with it. As you look closely at it, you will begin to see the enormous way it can be configured to be made to work for you.
Here is the diagram as a JPG file. Please enjoy
jim electricme
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Jim,
I will be reading and interpretting this design over the next several days. What I would like to do is get this modelled up within Solidworks. I would be able to build a full assembly and apply motion to its various moving components. Solidworks a good tool here not only from a modelling standpoint but also in its ability to quickly generate official machining style blueprints. Through auxillary program add-ons, some amount of simulation could also be done (stresses-forces, thermodynamics).
Let me know if you are interested in this. In the mean time, I will attempt to wrap my mind around what you are proposing here.
Best regards,
MW383
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mw383
Thank you for your input and the Solidworks option sounds excellent to me.
I appreciate this, and it will be a good test to run.
I would like to speak to you on this topic soonest if this may be possible.
I will PM you with the NS papers within the next couple of hours.
In the mean time, below is a further explanation on how I perceive the operation of the engine occurs relating to the usual 4 cycle engine as most people know it today.
Over the last couple of days I have had questions relating to people who need a clarification on just how the 4 "normal" strokes relate to this new engine of mine, so I will endeavor to explain this principle in a more graphical way.
I will post jpgs with just their number to identify which belongs to what photo eg 1696.jpg is (1696 = and the story follows)
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1696 = I depicts the 4 stroke of the "normal" engine as we all understand it today as a graphical BLUE WAVY LINE.
The line begins,
As you can see, the 1st upward line at the left depicts the piston rising, compressing fuel mixture, it rises to TDC.
At this point the "red" X denotes the spark plug fires, and the POWER stroke begins.
The blue line begins to fall, this indicates the piston is being forced down.
The blue line begins to flatten out, the EXHAUST valve is opening, the blue line begins to rise upwards on its exhaust stroke.
Towards the top the exhaust valve closes and the INLET valve opens, this is the INTAKE stroke.
The blue line continues it's downward travel, it begins to flatten out, the Intake stroke ends, the intake valve closes and the COMPRESSION stroke begins and rises to the top and the whole procedure starts all over again.
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OK now we have to "S T R E T C H" THIS IMAGINARY STROKE PROCESS by pulling the blue line longer.
This will give you a better understanding on how my engine converts this 4 stroke principle 2 revolution (which does not alter) into a single revolution but still using the 4 stroke principle to work.
Let us now look at graph 1697.
1697 = The same image that you saw above is now a shallow wriggly line, I have done this on purpose to explain this easier.
At the left is the upward rising COMPRESSION, which rises to the SPARK PLUG and FIRING point.
All the stroke principles are still there as you can see, BUT from this point onwards, we now take the end of this wriggly line and begin to form a circle with it, so the END of the line representing the downward power stroke now is taken around and underneath, then back upwards towards the beginning of the 1st line at the left side, you will have formed a very crude circle.
Now lets take a look at the this final image which looks like a deformed peanut.
The RED X denotes the FIRING POINT, the blue line we bent represents the channel or SLOT which is machined into the flywheel.
The Black small X in a circle represents the fulcrum or axle centre.
So as the PISTON is FIXED to the piston SHAFT (which is no longer a conrod) can only move in two directions (UP or DOWN), as the slot revolves, it pulls the piston either Up or Down, depending on where the wobble piece (affixed at the bottom of the piston shaft) is in relation to the moving slot machined inside the flat face of the flywheel.
If you take a straight wire coat hanger and form all the above curves as seen in image 1696, then stretch it as seen in 1697, then form a circle, you will end up with the peanut image as seen.
This shows you how TWO complete rotations of the crankshaft is transformed into a SINGLE rotation, but the 4 stroke principle is still retained.
jim
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Jim,
I really like your diagrams and analogy. My mind is now wrapping around this much faster now. The next step for me is to understand your mechanical components and movements thereof. This is quite interesting. I will say right now that this design should prove to be more thermally efficient than conventional 4-strokes. We will prove this out in the future and even apply some design tweaks to make even more efficient.
This is a very interesting thing you have here Jim,
MW383
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This is unfortunately not a new design. It is well known and is sometimes referred to as a "Crankless" or "Cam Drive" engine. Here is one example: http://www.rexresearch.com/revetec/revetec.htm
I remember seeing one on the cover of "Popular Mechanics" several years back that had upwards of 18 or so pistons arrayed around the cam/main shaft.
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BURN TIMEs and explanations
I have refined this a little further to make it easier if some people still might not understand the operating principle.
In image 1698 = I have added in RED the main points or KEYS representing the 4 strokes
Just follow them around the blue line image from 1/ to 5/
OK at this point, we can play around with the firing of the mixture between points 1 and 2.
As you can see, there is a slight downward drop between point 1 and 2, this represents the "time" you want the mixture to BURN during the cycle in relation to the amount of degrees of angle available to carry out the burn process.
A machinist can machine the slot to give a tiny burn time or a longer burn time.
The longer the "burn" time the more fuel is consumed, the higher the pressure builds, the more torque is available.
This section alone could in no doubt be machined to reflect what ever senerio was required.
In a recropicating engine, this is a fixed quantity as the crankshaft is directly affixed to the big ends, but here, because the "big end" is done away with, the machined slot takes its place, and by the changing of the flywheel accommodates this.
So looking at the diagram again, we see the whole process begins at
position 1/ then when the flywheel rotates to X the spark plug fires the compressed mixture, the mixture is burnt between X and 2/.
2/ represents the point where the pressure of the burnt gasses is really applied in a downward force, which is controlled by the machined slot in the flywheel.
Positions of 1/ to 3/ combines position 2/, it may look a little confusing, but I did it this way to explain the burn time procedures.
The positions between 1/ and 3/ represents the POWER stroke.
The positions between 3/ and 4/ represents the EXHAUST stroke.
The positions between 4/ and 5/ represents the INTAKE stroke.
The positions between 5/ and 1/ represents the COMPRESSION stroke.
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Now print out the next jpg which is 1699
Next using scissors, cut out the peanut image, and past to thick cardboard.
Draw a piston on some scrap paper with a vertical fixed shaft, then cut it out and fix to cardboard too.
Grab a drawing pin and shuv it through the round hole with the black X in it
Now grab your cutout piston place it vertical on the peanut, the bottom of the piston shaft always points to the blue line.
ROTATE the peanut slowly, matching the blue line with the bottom of the piston shaft, remember, the piston shaft must NOT move sideways, it MUST be FIXED in a UP or DOWN ward motion.
Keep rotating the peanut, and you will begin to see how the 4 stroke principle actually does follow the blue line you have on the peanut.
That's it folks, my DUDGEON ENGINE and the way it works.
jim
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I just looked at these links and materials and they indeed appear to be cam driven and employ a Scotch Yoke type mechanism between 2 opposing pistons. There was actually a chap building something similar right after WW2. Bourke perhaps? I forget as it has been a long time since I read about them.
Regarding Jim's design, I think some principals may be similar but from my initial assessment, he is applying other design aspects which appear unique. I will now read his latest post to confirm.
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VARIABLE PISTON SPEED during each cycle/revolution. :D
ADDING a extra STEP in the Exhaust procedure, creating a 6 cycle procedure in a single revolution. :D
ENGINEERING SOFTWARE
Over the last centuries, the piston cannot alter its designed up or downward movement. :(
This engine of mine also has another unique feature, which is impossible in the usual 4 stroke engine.
Engine designers will love this.
As the machined slot is machined in the flywheel, the position of the slot in any position can reflect what the engine designer wants to do with it.
For instance I have already showed you the burn time can be made flexable by lengthening the position of the burn between points X and point 2/.
This WAS a dream that engine designers could not do on a normal engine. 8)
In the same way the compression can be altered to reflect a slow rise in compression, OR, it can start as a low compression rising to a rapid compression. :o
Let us take a closer look at the position of the slot between position 5/ and 1/.
As the flywheel revolves further around the axis, the machined grove forces the piston to follow a pre planed movement, if the machined slot had a deeper wave to it, the piston would have to follow this pattern, reflecting it in its operation.
The piston in this engine does not rise simply up or down at a fixed pattern as is expected in the usual 4 stroke principle which is governed by the rotating crankshaft.
This piston will have many different variable speeds applied to it, which depends exactly where the position of the machined Slot relates to the bottom of the piston shaft where the swivel plate is in relation to the flywheel.
So the designer engineer has a lot more scope/flexture which he can incorporate into the final design of this engine.
The engine is extremely flexable in design and those designs can be incorporated into this engine by placing them in the machined flywheel grove.
For instance, if a designer wanted to allow only a low compression engine, all he has to do is to use a shallower wave for the piston to follow in the machined slot.
If he wanted a higher compression, the wave is just made a bit more aggressive.
If for instance the engine designer wanted the engine to expunge the exhaust gasses TWICE instead of the usual only allowable ONCE, because of the 4 stroke principle, he would only have to create a small EXTRA wave during the machining of the flywheel slot to incorporate this.
Between position 4/ and 5/ is the EXHAUST stroke, by placing a ridge in the machined slot this could be achieved, the lower or higher the ridge the more or less aggressive the piston stroke becomes. 8)
So in actual fact the piston would travel in its upward exhaust stroke, then be made to return to the bottom of the stroke with the exhaust valve still open and the return stroke would almost guarantee a 100 percent of all previous burnt gasses evacuated. Something that is IMPOSSIBLE to do on a current 4 stroke engine.
I suppose in effect this could be termed a 6 stroke engine, BUT it occurs only during the SINGLE revolution or complete turn of the flywheel.
As I said earlier, this is AMAZING stuff, and the mechanical engineer, will have his head spinning at the possibilities he will be able to incorporate in the design phase.
In effect the piston would not have to actually go all the way to the bottom again if not required, but it could be made to rest a split second if needed then it could be sent on it's way again to complete the current cycle. To do this, a small step would be machined in the flywheel plate to accommodate this.
As I mentioned previously, this engine is not a standard engine that we are all used to, it has amazing features available to the engine designer that he has never dreamt about, it is truly the most flexable engine, which is capable of truly amazing features, no doubt over time, designers will come up with other operating features that will be utterly impossible to the usual 4 stroke cycle engines that are used today.
ENGINEERING SOFTWARE.
Well, I guess you all know by now I don't use any, lol, the old pen and paper is my tool, but I know the design of metal parts for fabrication requires software, probably the old CAD stuff, but no doubt these companies who make these might have to take a look see at this engine idea of mine and reflect the changes in their programs.
jim
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Jim,
I remain intrigued by the flexibility here. Very cool.
I look at this and see that it should transfer mechanical power efficiently and that it would do so in a less mechanically stressed manner. I would think this to be useful in any mode of operation.
I like the ability to tune in combustion timing aspects. I would assume this to be a multi-fuel capable engine, just modify the curve accordingly.
Keep drawing the pictures Jim.
, MW383
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The PISTON ASSEMBLY see image 1700
The SWIVAL BAR see image 1701
The END GUIDE PLATE see image 1702 and 1703
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The PISTON ASSEMBLY
The piston can be any piston the designer engineer wants to use, whatever material it is made of, dimensions is entirely up to the purpose it is used for, I have no other comment to make about choices.
BUT in this engine of mine, there is a GREAT difference from all other engines.
The current way of affixing a piston to the engine is to use a CONROD.
The CONROD is NO MORE, I have pitched this away as it is now no longer cannot be filtered to my engine, there is NO BIG END.
The old problem of "throwing a rod through the side of the block is OVER"
There is NO little end bearing or Gudgeon Pin or Wrist pin, instead I have replaced this component with a FIXED SQUARE SOLID SHAFT.
Please look at image 1700
One end of the solid shaft is affixed inside the piston rock solid, so it has no lateral or side movement.
The other end has a large Heavy Duty solid shaft attached through a hole in the square solid shaft.
Over this Heavy Duty shaft is placed the Thick SWIVEL PLATE, which is designed to rock on the Heavy Duty shaft during operation.
Please see image 1701
This whole piston, Square steel sliding shaft, Shaft Bearing and Swivel plate is as one unit assembly, is held in place inside the engine by a CHANNELED GUIDE which is machined into the END GUIDE PLATE.
Please see images 1702 and image 1703
The End Guide Plate is the same diameter as the Flywheel which contains the machined guide.
The machined Channeled Guide allows the main square shaft to slide UP or DOWN inside it.
Its main purpose is to hold the Square Shaft securely, so preventing it from rotating or making any sideways movement.
It also presents the main Guide swivel Plate Pin in its correct working position which is 90 degrees to the face of the rotating Flywheel.
Sufficient clearances will need to be set to prevent any form of seizure or lock up.
As the flywheel which contains the machined guide rotates, the Swivel rocker plate is matched inside the guide, this now makes the piston rise or lowers relating to the position of the machined guide.
If the guide is in the lowest position, the piston assembly will be at its lowest, if the guide is in it's highest position, the piston assembly will reflect that position.
The piston reflects its position that the mechanical designing engineer designs into the machine guide.
The main flywheel and End Guide Plate are assembled in a slightly larger stubby round drum type container, I have coined the term the DRUM HOUSING.
The end plate guide plate is made slightly larger than the rotating flywheel, then bolt hole positions are machined and matched up with the Drum Housing.
Through bolts are passed through the End Guide Plate holes to mate up with corresponding threads in the drum housing.
We cannot call it a crank case any longer, as the crank and cam shafts simply don't exist.
The whole engine is kept in alignment by the drum housing, the axle is presented into the housing bearing assembly along with the machined flywheel, the piston assembly is presented into the End Plate Guide and the End Plate Guide is attached to the Drum Housing, the through bolts are presented to there respective positions and tightened, so the whole DUDGEON ENGINE is ready, except for the CYLINDER which the engine designer has chosen.
Cooling, this depends a lot with the choice of cylinder housing is used, air cooled or fluid cooled is the choices, I have concentrated only on the bottom half.
jim
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Mandrasek,
I have never heard of the Crankless or Cam drive engine you mentioned, never been aware of it, nor have I had opportunity to see the magazine you refer to.
I am an Invalid Pensioner, I do not have the resources to buy the associated reading materials, or to provide for a fully equipped machine shop, (wow wouldn't that be something). I hope you understand my limitations.
My main hobby is not as an engineer inventor of engines but I enjoy the Joul Thief and Stubblefield forums stuff.
In fact this engine just came to me out of the blue, several years ago before I even had access to the internet.
I just threw a few ideas I had together floating in my mind ages ago, and eventually arrived to what I presented in the last 24 hours on overunity.
No person has spoken to me about the above engine types you mention, and I have not know of this web site, nor been there.
No doubt some person some time will say they have known of my engine, well they didn't get it from me :), and I am not in the habit of stepping on anyones toes.
I have spoken to only three people about this engine, one a qualified machinist (about10 years ago) who said to me he had never ever heard of anything like it, the other was a local farmer (about 5years ago), he also has never heard of it and didn't understand it, and a fellow who has a win solar generator setup out my way, (last year) who couldn't understand it either.
I suppose it could be seen like this, every engine has a rotating shaft, weather it is electric powered, fossil fuel powered or solar powered. But irrespective of the energy it takes to turn the shaft, it still revolves, the only difference is the method to create the motion.
But thank you for letting me know.
jim
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Jim
I understand everything except maybe the swivel bar. But that's not important right now. I see all the advantages you state. There will be a trade off by how long you can slow the piston for complete burn. To slow it will require a more shallow ramp. The shallow ramp will increase side loading on the square shaft when the piston fires, resulting is less torque to rotation. The overall length of the rod/piston will determine its weight. It looks heavy? Overall, I think the engine will be a low-rev hi torque design, which is good in my opinion. Longer life span and less noise. To be in balance, it needs to be min of two cylinders in a flat twin opposed engine. Two pistons working in unison opposing each other.
Looking good.
Chris
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Jim
The engine that mondrasek referenced is nothing like your design. It is a double piston design as well the Hermann Cam engine I PM'd you about. That was probably the engine he saw on the cover of the mag as that engine had passed FAA approval as an aircraft engine. Double ended piston engines are a balancing nightmare. The 12 cyl Hermann engine shook the concrete floor like mad as it ran on the test bed. I saw it in operation. This was near Lockheed aircraft in Burbank, Calif. These engines can also be machining nightmares also. Although now with computer controlled machines may no longer be a problem. You engine is the most simple to make I have seen. The most difficult part is machining the grove profile. But nowadays that can be dialed in with the computer control. Should be rugged and easy to repair.
Why the swivel bar? Why not a roller bearing in the grove? The roller will move around and wear evenly. Allow for clearance so that it does not drag on both side of the grove at the same time. Am I still missing something here?
Chris
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tishatang,
Thank you for the kind words about my engine, the swivel bar as you mentioned can be replaced with a roller bearing if required.
I have no problem with this at all, the only reason I suggested a swivel bar, was because I simply didn't think of another way.
I think it is a bonza idea Chris. :D
If anyone can think up other improvements, or enhancements please do.
jim
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No person has spoken to me about the above engine types you mention, and I have not know of this web site, nor been there.
No doubt some person some time will say they have known of my engine, well they didn't get it from me :), and I am not in the habit of stepping on anyones toes.
etc.
Jim,
I in no way meant to imply that you have borrowed your idea from anyone or anyplace. I only wanted to let all know that this idea of yours was unfortunately not something new. It is an engine design that has been imagined, built, tested, and even manufactured already. You may be able to research those other designs to learn if yours has any new, useful features, or whether the technology you have come up with is already fully developed.
You might also find the swashplate variation of the same type of engine interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashplate_engine They are the engines comonly used in torpedos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_cylinder_engine
M.
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TO mondrasek,
I could roll over and meekly say you might be right and allow others to go into bat for me, but one needs to take a stand.
I have myself been wrong on a couple of occasions, on a different matter, when I realised my post was missleading, I immediately admitted my mistake and put the matter right. My credability was restored and people know I can be trusted.
In relation to your posts about my DUDGEON Engine, you are incorrect in forming your present assumptions.
I produce your post here so others can read and go and see for themselves.
I invite all persons who read this post to go to both these addresses and see themselves, double check or triple check.
Sit down and study it, print it out, show the information to a mechanical engineer before they post a reply, if they wish to do so.
Lets open this up and STURRrrrr the pot a bit.
I invite all the mechanics and mechanical engineers on earth to join this topic.
If there is an engine out there prior to my engine the same as mine, then I will be the very first to shuve my hand up and say sorry.
etc.
Jim,
I in no way meant to imply that you have borrowed your idea from anyone or anyplace. I only wanted to let all know that this idea of yours was unfortunately not something new. It is an engine design that has been imagined, built, tested, and even manufactured already. You may be able to research those other designs to learn if yours has any new, useful features, or whether the technology you have come up with is already fully developed.
You might also find the swashplate variation of the same type of engine interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashplate_engine They are the engines comonly used in torpedos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_cylinder_engine
M.
mondrasek,
Thanks for the 2 posts you have placed on this forum.
I was going to originally take a look at the web addresses you provided, (thank you), to verify your statements.
It seems in your mind I have borrowed someone elses ideas to make my engine design.
(Perhaps a private PM would have set this straight instead of public)
You "imply" above in your post my engine has been made before, and is "not something new".
You provide 2 Webb addresses to back up your above statement, not only to me but to every person who reads it, that it has been done before, this is implying I am a fraud.
Let those of my piers make their own judgement.
You say in the plural, implying there are many sites, OK, bring them forth here so we can all read them.
I noticed that tishatang and mw383 have taken the effort to look for themselves and they both publicly posted above my post here that you are wrong, and should take another look again and compare my engine with the others on wikipedia.
Since reading your secand post which appears under both tishatangs and mw383 posts, I can only assume you have read them, debunking your very first post.
It is obvious to myself that you probably read them, but have it fixed into your mind that my engine is not as it should be as your current understanding of it is.
So just in case you might be right, I went to each of the above web addresses you kindly provided (thankyou) and looked at each in turn, (just a few minutes ago).
As both tishatang and mw383 have stated, they are not in any way like my engine, as the DUDGEON Engine designer and you are NOT, you would have to agree to accept the fact I should know more about my own invention than yourself.
Both these engines do not look internally anything like my design at all, they both cannot came anywhere near the features my engine can provide.
The only similarity is the outside casing which is round, and contains the interior mechanical components which do not look anything like mine.
Their design is as you rightly say, a swish plate, in actual fact a rotating shaft, with a flat thick plate which is affixed on an angle to its central shaft, which rotates on its axis to push a piston left or right, the cylinders in both cases are parallel with the main shaft itself, the piston on mine is at 90 degrees to the rotating shaft. (I prove my point).
The design of these two engines in the section where the power is transferred to the push rods is totally different in design to my own engine, they both don't even come close to mine at all.
There is simply NO similarity between my engine, to the two machines that you have brought to my attention.
I will only say, all the machines can work in such a manner to bring power in a circular fashion to a central rotating shaft.
I also bring to your attention, another device that uses the swish plate technology, in the airconditioning industry.
I refer to car air conditioners, but not all of them. I have personally seen on a couple of occasions after pulling several different car airconditioners apart that there is a design which uses the swish plate technology.
In the last web address, it shows the engine casing which is joined in the center.
I have written on one of my last above posts, my engine casing is round and travels the full length, bolting to the end plate itself.
Why have I said this, just to head off anyone who might imply my outside casing is like theirs.
So mondrasek, I do appreciate your input, it's just at this point in time, on both occasions you posted you are wrong, about my engine and you do NOT seem to understand how it operates or the way it goes about the cycle or manner to produce work.
This is expected as it is completely new to the industry.
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Now to be fair to mondrasek, and to show him there are no bad feelings, at least from me, I would like to point out that it takes time to write a large post, or even several of them one after the other.
It seems this is the case, if you all check the times between the posts I made, mandrasek posted "between" the majority of posts I made that day and my last post describing my engine, he would not have had, all the information he needed to make his assumption.
I was still writing my posts up when he sent his first post between several of my bigger posts as I was making the original ones.
So he made a mistake by not having all the information available, to form his opinion, which anyone could have done.
So, I have tried to explain this, and I forgive him for it. :)
As far as I am concerned, this is the end of this matter.
jim electricme designer of the DUDGEON Engine
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@All,
I have a refinement to the DUDGEON ENGINE
It has been pointed out to me the the Thrust Pin which connects to the Square Thrust Shaft, can also be modified by using a single but large pin roller bearing, so I have made a drawing so everyone can see what I mean.
This could replace a swivel arm, so making the engine easier to make, as you can all see, I am open to suggestions.
The function remains the same, there is no change to the output.
The bearing fits neatly into the machined groove, it's function is to raise the piston assembly up or down depending the position of the machined groove on the flywheel itself.
In my next post, I am going to ASTOUND the engineering world, with the immense possibilities of my DUDGEON ENGINE DESIGN.
You are about to see what this engine can be made to do, it relates to the power available on the output shaft, by greatly modifying the PROFILE of the MACHINED GROOVE, still using a single piston.
However if those people who wish to make a swivel arm, please do so.
I submit the drawing below
jim
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@ Jim:
I went to the sites provided by mondrasek and, as an aerospace class A machinist and design engineer for over 20 years, I can tell you that those designs are nothing like yours.
As you know, I don't have much time now, but when I do, I want to delve into your design and see what can be done with it.
A great idea is a great idea and I am not shocked when I have one and find it has been done before. To me, this is just verification that the idea was good to begin with. However, from what I have seen, this is not the case here at all. I have never seen, heard about nor read about a design like what you propose here.
Carry on my friend.
Bill
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@ALL,
Can a engine do away with the function of the humble gear box?
With the DUDGEON Engine, it can have this effect, only if you carry out the below modification.
As I have stated, this engine is like NO other engine, it's possibilities seem to be endless in what it can actually do.
The KEY is the modification of the Machined Groove on the FLYWHEEL.
OK, lets take a refresher look at whats happening here, so we need to go back to the 4 stroke principle a moment before I go into showing everyone the next step.
So lets begin on the uprising of the Compression stroke and start from there.
The piston rises upwards, compressing the mixture to be burnt, the spark plug fires and the piston is driven downwards in the POWER stroke to rise again on the EXHAUST stroke, then it descends once more as the INTAKE stroke, and rises again as the COMPRESSION stroke.
You all agree with this procedure, so lets write these STROKES as P1 and E1 and I1 and C1 .
Lets now take these 4 strokes and make them appear in a straight horizontal MOTION like the chart seen below.
Now, remembering the 4 strokes, place in your mind how it works as seen on the FIRST wriggly line chart below.
I have marked at each Top Line and each Bottom line the corresponding positions where each of the 4 strokes happen in relation to a horizontal line.
The spark plug has fired the fuel mixture, the result is
P1 is POWER stroke 1
E1 is the EXHAUST stroke 1
I1 is the INTAKE stroke 1
C1 is the COMPRESSION stroke 1
Now the 1's at the end of the word "stroke" relate to the "series cycle" of the 4 strokes, it will become very clear shortly.
Look at the jpg below, and don't go to my next post until you completely understand this section. It is a KEY you need to know to be able to understand the next two posts.
jim
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@ALL,
Now the next step to grasp a better understanding on how the Machined Groove works is to take away the sheets of paper I used to block off the bottom horizontal chart.
In the above chart we can see the 4 stroke principle has been allowed to form a single horizontal line.
Now I add onto this stroke more 4 stroke "series" of cycles, and add them together.
Lets take a look at what I mean.
We begin at P1, E1 I1 C1, now we add P1 E2 I2 C2 then add P3 E3 I3 C3 then all the way to P9 E9 I9 C9
We could make a chart to rise into the 50s if possible.
But now take a look at the below chart, it has grown, and the reason willl become apparent shortly.
The bottom chart goes from P1 up to P9
Study it carefully, remembering these vertical lines represent the firing order for a4 stroke engine.
If this was a steel bar attached to the DUDGEON Engine, it would blow your mind, lol.
jim
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@ALL,
Now we come to the good bit.
Can the DUDGEON Engine replace a gearbox, "YES" if the right modification is carried out.
As I have been saying previously, the DUDGEON Engine is like NO other engine, its possibilities are simply enormous.
Most people who will come across this information for the first time need to re think the way the 4 stroke cycle engine works from its standard way over the last century or more.
Now here below you will see a circle, this represents the MACHINED FLYWHEEL with the MACHINED GROOVE inside it.
NOW, take the "ABOVE" 4 stroke principle line, and WRAP IT just inside the Flywheel as you see below.
NOW you have NINE or in the example below ELEVEN (11) power strokes in ONE (1) SINGLE REVOLUTION of the DUDGEON Engine. cool.
The engine will be able to put out 11 times of the power it would have if it was just a single cylinder.
This makes it a VERY POWERFUL engine at very low torque.
Something engineers all over the world have been only able to dream about until today.
How it works, the usual 4 cycle process takes place between P1 to P2, then continues until P11 is reached, then the Flywheel returns to the original position of P1 and it starts to do the same thing all over again, until you turn of the engine.
The Flywheel will need to be made larger to accomodate these extra mods.
There is a down side of this also, until the flywheel can over come slow inertia, it would be seen to be cogging, so another geared faster spinning wheel would need to be attatched to overcome that effect.
However if the same machined wave form was a lot shallower, there would be no problem.
There is a lightning storm arriving so gotta be off.
jim
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I went to the sites provided by mondrasek and, as an aerospace class A machinist and design engineer for over 20 years, I can tell you that those designs are nothing like yours.
To clarify: Those final two links that I added were referred to as a "variants" of the same main idea presented by Jim. That main idea is to replace the crankshaft in a typical reciprocating piston engine with a rotating grooved cam. The swashplate design cited evolves this main idea further by changing the orientation of the pistons to the main shaft by 90 degrees so as to minimize the package (albeit likely with an increase in production cost and complexity). Both use cams instead of crankshafts and achieve the goal of completing a four stroke power cycle in one revolution. Interestingly, all the links show the improvement of having a second piston opposed 180 degrees to the one in Jim's design to immediately double the power, something I thought you all might find useful.
Sorry I cannot produce a link to a site that describes a design exactly like Jim's, or even the one from Popular Mechanics that I mentioned in my first post. But that was not my purpose. I did not want to dissuade anyone from pursuing whatever it is you think you have here. I was just pointing out the FACT that this main idea is in no way new. So unless there is something unique about Jim's take on this main idea, your efforts are duplicating those of others who have proceeded you. And there is nothing wrong with that if your intentions are to "learn by doing" or some other such noble purpose. That would be great. But if your purpose is to develop what you believe to be a unique technology for the benefit of mankind, then you might want know more about similar devices that have previously been developed. My purpose was only to bring those other devices to your attention. The choice to research them is up to you. I'm not going to do it for you and definitely not for the purpose of trying to stop you from attaining whatever goal it is you desire. The information I gave was just that, information. Use it how you want.
The design I mentioned that was featured in Popular Mechanics is really the most similar to Jim's that I can recall, if you have an interest. I know I saw it at the barber shop I have frequented since I moved to my current job. So I would estimate that the issue is between 10 and 16 years old. BTW, one of the claims for that particular engine was that it eliminated the need for a transmission.
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Hmmmm, it seems we have here someone who is on a dedicated negative mission, well lets see who is the one who brings discredit on who.
I present Pirate88179 full text so others who read it can make their own mind up about the situation.
The last line just about says it all.
@ Jim:
I went to the sites provided by mondrasek and, as an aerospace class A machinist and design engineer for over 20 years, I can tell you that those designs are nothing like yours.
As you know, I don't have much time now, but when I do, I want to delve into your design and see what can be done with it.
A great idea is a great idea and I am not shocked when I have one and find it has been done before. To me, this is just verification that the idea was good to begin with. However, from what I have seen, this is not the case here at all. I have never seen, heard about nor read about a design like what you propose here.
Carry on my friend.
Bill
Ha ha, thank you Bill, those are excellent words and it is a pleasure to have you here. :)
Yes readers, take a look at the second paragraph of mondraseks above post, he says and I quote "Sorry I cannot produce a link to a site that describes a design exactly like Jim's", or even the one from "Popular Mechanics" and goes on to say as a way of escape to distance himself "But it was not my purpose".
So what was your purpose? if it is not to build up and edify? Is it to pull down and destroy?
Readers are not dumb, they know if someone has a negative opinion, which is the reflection of the inner person with a negative outlook in life, weather it is of the topic at hand or other, but they also are able to understand the depth or degree of it also, and they will know which person who is of a higher calibre.
So my main idea is not new, ::), therefore, if a vehicle manufacturer brings out a "new" model it's not new, according to the opinion by mondrasek. Once again people will understand.
I haven't told a single person to make my engine, its a free world, they can make it or any other engine if they wish.
I am not twisting anyones arm over this to go make it.
Have you ever designed an engine? Obviously by your remarks, you have no idea.
Thank you for bring those other devices to my attention.
Once again the readers will be able to read between the lines of what your main purpose is.
Lastly, for the benefit of the readers, I have never approached mondrasek to do any research on my behalf, or asked for his opinion, at any time over the years.
I would not want a negative biased opinion anyway, therefore as with all designers or inventors, I see it as my right, to see if a suggestion is suitable for the purpose at hand. If I choose or choose not to use it, that is my democratic right the same as yours.
If the knocker, gets the humphs, because the "advice" was not heeded, or can't get their own way, then they need to have a little rest away from that which might be seen as a problem to them.
I have examined all the input from everyone over the last few days, 90 percent is very positive and edifying, building up, but frankly mondraseks is inconsistent, says something on one post, then denies it on another, he has nothing positave to say.
So, thank you for your input mondrasek, but if anyone displaying such severe negative attributes were employed by me, their sacking would be immanent and swift, I'm sure you would have to agree.
jim
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Yes readers, take a look at the second paragraph of mondraseks above post, he says and I quote "Sorry I cannot produce a link to a site that describes a design exactly like Jim's", or even the one from "Popular Mechanics" and goes on to say as a way of escape to distance himself "But it was not my purpose".
LOL! That is a very cynical interpretation of what I wrote, let alone my intentions.
So what was your purpose? if it is not to build up and edify? Is it to pull down and destroy?
My purpose was exactly as stated: To inform that the idea was not new and provide references to that fact. That was not in and of itself negative in anyway. I provided information that may have assisted in your endeavors, nothing else. You may not have known of these similar devices and wasted efforts duplicating them. But, more importantly, you could still research them to see if you could learn anything to further your own design, assuming it has unique features and/or capabilities that would make it more useful than those other designs.
Do you think the designers of any new device do not study any and every similar and useful device first? That is exactly how they learn! And that is exactly why I studied the engine design in Popular Mechanics when I ran across it years ago: because it was intriguing and embodied much that I could learn.
I am not sure why you keep taking issue with my input. You are reading in some sub text or ulterior motives that I do not have. I apologize if you think I have attacked you for I have not. And seriously, I believe it has been the other way around! And I cannot fathom a rational reason why. So I will just leave it at that. You can continue the slander and veiled accusations of evil intent if you wish. And if you choose to do so, I gladly give you the last word!
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LOL
jim
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Jim,
OK I am now just getting back into study of your motor. I apologize for the delay, life has been extremely hectic. Anyway I see 2 halves to your assembly. The first half is rotating, the other is stationary? The rotating half would have the machined groove? The stationary half contains the piston and connecting rod (for lack of better term)? The end of rod interfaces with machined groove via a bearing of sorts?
Sorry for so many questions... I understand the principle with what your groove does and am trying to equate it into construction / mechanical motion.
Now more questions... Is the groove also driving a valvetrain? And is the valvetrain part of an external head assembly that bolts on to outside diameter of stationary half?
Once I understand how this works exactly, I will get it solid modelled in CAD program and send you the files if you like.
Best regards,
MW
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@MW
Jim,
OK I am now just getting back into study of your motor. I apologize for the delay, life has been extremely hectic. Anyway I see 2 halves to your assembly. The first half is rotating, the other is stationary? The rotating half would have the machined groove? The stationary half contains the piston and connecting rod (for lack of better term)? The end of rod interfaces with machined groove via a bearing of sorts?
Sorry for so many questions... I understand the principle with what your groove does and am trying to equate it into construction / mechanical motion.
Now more questions... Is the groove also driving a valvetrain? And is the valvetrain part of an external head assembly that bolts on to outside diameter of stationary half?
Once I understand how this works exactly, I will get it solid modelled in CAD program and send you the files if you like.
Best regards,
MW
That's correct, the right disk is stationary, the left disk is the flywheel, that is the one which contains the groove, the groove is machined to whatever wave profile the designer wants the engine to do.
On the right disk, there is a single deep vertical groove, this is to take the piston shaft, it's job is to prevent the piston shaft from moving sideways, we all got to forget about a conrod flying around with a crankshaft.
The "End Rod" as you called it is just a square shaft, the top of this rod the piston is secured, it does "not" wobble as is normally done, but if the engine designer wishes to do so, it's up to him.
Almost the whole length (3 sides), of the square shaft, fits snugly inside the fixed non rotating end plate, the 4th side of the square shaft is presented this face, towards the rotating flywheel.
At the bottom of this square shaft is where a large stubby (very short) axle needs to be secured.
The outer section protrudes into the revolving groove section.
As the flywheel rotates, the stubby axle can only follow the groove, so the direction of the square shaft is either going upward, or downward.
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I decided to locate the valve timing arrangement on the main rotating shaft itself but as close as possible to the side of the flywheel.
It could be setup by maching another 2 separate smaller grooves, one controlling the inlet valve, the other the outlet valve.
However it is much easier making a smaller cam lobe fitting.
The valve timing is set by the "ANGLE" position of the groove, as the upward exhaust stroke just begins, then as the square piston rod reaches the top of it's travel, the cam lowers the valve in the correct position relating to the groove.
The air/mixture intake is set up in a similar fashion, but once again the ANGLE position of the groove sets this also.
The person designing the groove would need to figure out these 2 positions and make a slip on lobe cam, which could be key wayed to the output shaft.
Therefore, there is no longer any need for a "long" camshaft, a single cam can form the functions of several pistons and associated valve trains.
A line drawn from the center of the main shaft towards the outer edge of the flywheel will give the angle that is needed to set the positions of the cam lobes.
jim
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Jim,
I am starting to get this drawn up in 3D cad. What I have is probably not correct but I will forward pictures anyway so you can mark up for corrections. Bit by bit I can get this fully modelled.
, MW383
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@ MW383
Jim,
I am starting to get this drawn up in 3D cad. What I have is probably not correct but I will forward pictures anyway so you can mark up for corrections. Bit by bit I can get this fully modelled.
, MW383
Thanks MW, I am looking forward to seeing the pics of what you have done, I appreciate you doing this for me, just send the photos to my email box and I will examine them from there.
I have another drawing of the way the engine flywheel end couples into the fixed base end plate.
There is a stubby shaft protruding from the center of the flywheel, the end goes into the inside of a porous bronze bushing which is fixed inside the fixed end plate.
This is to prevent any out of round occurring or flexing of the output shaft and wobbling of the flywheel.
jim
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@ MW838,
I decided to draw up and photograph a paper model of the 4 stroke principle, which I have been able to combine the 2 revolutions into a single revolution. :D
@all,
There are a series of 13 photos, keep your eye on the ARROW denoting the rotation of the flywheel.
As I don't know how to put a photo with its text next to it, maby someone might like to try this, until then, you all will just have work it out for your selves.
I have also made 2 Tiny Weeny Videos, which will be posted after these still photos.
Look for the "paperclip" and click on that below the "pink" icon. TA.
Rotation of the flywheel containing the recessed groove is ANTICLOCKWISE
Firing mixture takes place at the first position, the flywheel does 1 revolution, and the cycles start all over again.
Enjoy.
1778 = All valves closed, mixture fires, flywheel rotates anticlockwise, the mixture has several degrees of flywheel movement to totally burn.
1779 = Beginning of position where piston on square shaft begins it's downwards FIRST power stroke.
1780 = Piston is travelling downwards, driving flywheel further around.
1781 = Piston and square shaft almost at bottom of stroke.
1782 = Piston is at bottom of stroke, beginning of SECOND stroke, which is the EXHAUST stroke, exhaust valve opens.
1783 = Piston rising upwards, driving burnt gasses out through exhaust exit.
1784 = Piston rising, almost at top of stroke.
1785 = Piston has reached top of its stroke, exhaust valve closes, INLET valve opens
1786 = Piston is descending, intake gasses enter cylinder, the THIRD stroke is underway.
1787 = Piston almost at the bottom, intake valve closing.
1788 = Piston reaches bottom of stroke, intake valve closed.
1789 = Piston travelling upwards, compressing flamable gasses, the FOURTH stroke is underway.
1790 = Piston has reached top of stroke, the mixture fires, which drives the piston back down again. to begin another series of cycles.
;D
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Here are some more photos showing the progress.
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The last four photos, enjoy.
jim
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@All,
Before I post these videos, there is someone who is making a 3D model of my Dudgeon Engine, this is MW383, I am looking forward to see his results, perhaps these flat paper models of mine can be of help to everyone too.
Remember a 3D model will be able to show far better detail than my hand drawn scrappy looking thing.
Tonight I decided to make a short video which is accessed by clicking on the "paper clip" just under the "pink" TWV icon that jeanna on the Joule Thief forum so kindly made for me, thanks jeanna.
I decided it was time to make a paper flat model of my Dudgeon engine.
With a new operating principle, it takes a little time for someone who has never come across it to understand its operation, it is very simple, nothing complicated at all, however most people will have difficulty trying to figure out how did I manage to get 4 strokes, which in today's engines need 2 Revelations to work, to work only on a single revolution.
To most mechanics and engineers, this is totally impossible, ha ha, not any more.
The first video has my Aussie accent, explaining how the engine works, it's not very long about 12 seconds, you may copy the video if you so wish.
The second video, I will post in its own section as we can only upload to a certain limit per post.
Enjoy my gift to the world. ;)
jim
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@All
Here is the last video, as I promised, no voice over to explain it, just silent movie.
If there is anyone cleaver here, you may double up the speed if you want and maybe make it a bit longer to look at too.
jim
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't your design just like the 1950's Wankel Rotary engine that Mazda uses today? It's a very cool design eitherway, but when I see rotors in place of pistons, I can't help but think zoom zoom zoom, yeah yeah yeah yeah..lol
Remember that little jingle Mazda had for it's car commercial a few years back? That song burned itself into my head I guess.
Anyway, your design just reminds me of the Wankel engine. Here is a link, see what you think and let me know please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine)
Thanks
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Hello t3t4,
I just went to the link and took a look see at the wankel engine, as you asked me to.
Looking at the moving image and reading the blurb I see the wankel needs 3 revolutions of its central shaft where as my design can do it in 1 revolution.
There are 3 firings the wankle can do, where as my engine can do 1, however if my engine does 3 revolutions, then we have it on par with the wankle.
My engine has no gearing, which is another pluss.
If someone was to bolt on another cylinder on my engine, then we have doubled the power instantly where as the wankle is fixed to it's design, unless they make the area size larger for the whole engine.
But if they were to double the wave groove between the highs and lows, then a single piston would give 2 firings per single revolution.
If the wave groove was to be doubled again, then you would get 4 firings in a single revolution.
If someone made a very large flywheel, to incorporate even more wave grooves, then you could have 6 or 8 firings in 1 revelution of the flywheel.
Then again, if someone made a single round groove and placed it as an encentric around the center of the flywheel, then you would have the same old 4 stroke principle working as a 2 revolution engine, but with no crankshaft or camshaft, see 1824 below.
Thanks t3t4
jim
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If someone made a very large flywheel, to incorporate even more wave grooves, then you could have 6 or 8 firings in 1 revelution of the flywheel.
Then again, if someone made a single round groove and placed it as an encentric around the center of the flywheel, then you would have the same old 4 stroke principle working as a 2 revolution engine, but with no crankshaft or camshaft.
jim
Yeah, I understand. It comes down to sequence of events, the more events per cycle or revolution, the better. Although, I imagine a point of diminishing return may be reached quickly in terms of fuel requirements and/or fuel efficiency. Decreasing parasitic drag by decreasing the amount of moving parts is great for increasing overall efficiency. But, we still have that thermal waste to deal with in the end.
I do hope that you build your engine, I'd love to see or hear some test results.
So I'm just thinking out loud here with an image of the Wankel and the piston type air plane engine in the front of my mind. One small engine with multiple combustion events, but pancake thin. The air plane engines use a master connecting rod with a bunch of smaller connecting rods attached to it. The Wankel uses egg shaped cylinders with rotors. But to add rotors, you add length to do it. Such as the Mazda 12b and 13b engines which are twin to triple rotor engines. But the 13b won't fit in a suitcase, but the 12b will, almost. The airplane engine has many cylinders and many combustion events, but it's big and heavy and still uses too many moving parts.
So you use a grooved flywheel in an eccentric rotational pattern. I'm thinking of pump gears at the moment. What if, you used something like an automatic transmission pump which are a set of gears. If you've seen them, then you know what I'm talking about. Their smooth lobed gears that run eccentrically. What if, you had a combustion event with each mesh of each lobe? That would be much like what your engine design is, but adding to it like adding cylinders on an airplane engine, and still being pancake thin, but eccentric in rotation like both yours and the Wankel engine.
Large pump gears would be like a flywheel, but it would probably be lighter. Due to it's shape and design, it could have 50 or so combustion events while consuming very little space. So it would work just like your engine and the Wankel engine, but with the added (so-called) cylinder capacity of an airplane engine, all the while not growing an inch in thickness. It would still be a 2 stroke engine though, as I'm seeing it that is. Or it could be altered to work on a half lobe base which would probably be required just to keep the thing from shaking itself right out of your car.
Yeah, large egg spinning fast ='s broken car, unless the combustion events where offset.
But anyway, your posts got me thinking, I believe you have a really cool idea and I hope I explained above what I'm seeing in my head. At least somewhat,,,lol. I wonder how much power could be produced with an engine like yours or the one I described, which is still the same thing, just different. But either way, there will be an RPM limit! Not so much for mechanical integrity, but more for the fact that gasoline can only burn just so fast, which is true of any fuel. Even jet engines have an RPM limit, but it's up there above 100,000 revs somewhere. So this is a neat project, if you need help building it, just say when.
Thanks Jim,
t3t4
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@ t3t4,
I never seen inside a automatic gearbox, strange as that may be, and thanks for the kudos, very much appreciated along with the offer for help.
MW383 has offered to make a model on 3D engine graphing tools, which will be way much better than my simple paper cut out lol.
I'm just waiting to see his jpgs of it, but he is a very busy fellow, so I am patiently waiting, theres no hurry, it's been in my head for decades, a few months or years wont matter.
I have to congratulate you on being about the first person to take a single look at it and have been able to understand what it will be able to do.
I have posted this engine here as I want as much input as possible, any improvements that anyone can think of, lets see if they are possible, then if used, that person can brag at his own Kidd's/grand Kidd's, see I had something to do with this engine.
Last weekend I saw some large flat 12" diameter x 1 inch thick steel disks, there were 5 or 6 of them.
I might go and see them in a week an make an offer, hmmmm.
jim
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