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Author Topic: Scalar Wave - Energy  (Read 91948 times)

Offline sparks

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2010, 04:11:19 AM »
  put one of these inside a faraday cage and tell me you wont hear it chirping outside it's cage.

MOD   Tesla's patent artist did not draw things to scale.  That little block E consisted of an extensive network of tunnels with insulated pipes.  He wants his charges to accumulate in the capacitor plates not be pissed away into the air or the ground.  Also the diameter of the inductor solenoid is much larger than the diameter of the torroid.  If not the current radiates from this surface instead of the nice smooth glow zone created around the top capacitor .  The top capacitor 1/2 is also a spark gap electrode of sorts.  As well as the Earth which he considered to be a smooth polished cold cathode.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 04:33:02 AM by sparks »

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2010, 04:11:19 AM »

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2010, 12:00:31 PM »
...
 Therefore the restoration of the magnetic field to the precurrent conditions will carry the energy of the distant scources into the sytem.  The resonance of the system will determine which frequencies are cohered with the magnetic flux changes induced by the oscillator currents.

Near fields work only at very short distance. Long distance coupling needs oscillator systems having dimensions of the same order as the distance. An LC circuit with a 1 mtr diameter coil is able to transmit power to another coil of same dimension, at distance about 1-3 mtr. If you want the same for 10 km, you will need a 10 km diameter coil...




Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2010, 05:45:12 PM »
@ Loner

I am not familiar with details of Tesla experiments, but I do believe he was transmitting with megawatts of power. To send a signal 200 miles with a megawatt transmitter does not seem like it would be hard to do to me. There are many AM stations transmitting for over 200 miles with far less power. Ham radio operators use to see how far they could transmit using small battery powered transmitters and they were able to send signals hundreds of miles. As far as I know, Tesla was never able to show that he could transmit larger amounts of power all over the world with only two transmitters. But, as I said, I do not know much about his experiments.

In the 1950's a common way of measuring wavelength of microwave signals was to use a "slotted line" which was a waveguide with a slot in it. A signal would be sent into the waveguide and reflected back to set up standing waves and then a small probe would be moved along the slot inside the waveguide to determine the distance between the voltage peaks (which was the wavelength of the signal in the waveguide).

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2010, 05:45:12 PM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2010, 08:37:28 PM »
@ Loner

 ??? There are many types of longitudinal waves. The electric field propagating through a wire is a longitudinal wave. The compression wave in a steel beam is a longitudinal wave. Earthquakes have both compression (longitudinal) p-waves and transverse wave. Is there something special about the type of longitudinal wave you are talking about? I think I missed something.

Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2010, 02:03:26 AM »
@ Loner

Indeed, coupling that much power at that distance seems out of the ordinary. But, a big factor in the coupling efficiency between two resonators is the Q of the resonators. If he was able to get extremely high Qs it may come into the realm of feasibility. I would need to do some calculating before I could say anything about that. Tesla was certainly a genius and I suspect knew all about Q of resonators (although he may have called it something else).

Like you have said, radio waves do not have a compression component. But it is possible to make a longitudinal electric "wave". I put wave in quotation marks because it is not technically a wave. You can do this by putting a charged object on something that will vibrate it horizontally and then suspending another charged object a short distance away. The vibrating charged object will push and pull on the suspended charge object and the suspended charge object will eventually be vibrating at the same frequency as the first vibrating charged object. The thing that comes closest to a longitudinal electric wave (at least that I can think of) is probably the field between the two plates of a capacitor as AC is being sent through the capacitor. In this case, the electric charge in one plate pushes and pulls on the charges in the other plate by means of the electric field connecting the plates.

"Tesla's view was that "Hertzian" waves (Transverse Waves) did not exist, and, of course, Hertz had the opposite view." - They were probably both correct. Each is probably an oversimplification of what is happening.

"An analogy given to me was, current RF is looked at like waves on the surface of water. Easy to see, and detect. Longitudinal waves would be pressure waves IN the water," - I think that is a good way of looking at it.

"When current starts flowing through a long wire, it starts at BOTH ends, proven by experiment. The middle is the last place that conduction starts." - This is not true. I have done many, many, measurements of this type. Someone has misled you.

"We all know that electrons "Flow" from - to +. but then what flows from + to -?" - Nothing. The electrons are replaced where they came from by new electrons flowing in.

A "hole" is just a location where the electron is missing. Think of it as the depression made by a ping pong ball floating on water. As the ball moves, the hole moves with it. But the hole is just the spot where some water is missing.

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2010, 02:03:26 AM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2010, 03:36:51 AM »
    I guess we must consider are all vacuums created equally?   Consider a perfect vacuum pump.  We start off with a closed chamber with atomspheric pressure in it.  Whatever that is,  Then we draw back the cylinder using as much force as we can.  Then we measure this altered space by its relation to atomospheric pressure.  What have we got left in the cylinder.  We not only have to draw back the cylinder we have to use force just to maintain the vacuum.  As we want a more perfect vacuum we need to apply more force and to maintain this increased vacuum again we must use more force.  So lets pin the crankarm.  The vacuum will start to drop as the pin begins to bend along with the cylinder walls caving in slowly the valve deforming etc.  Within this cylinder we now introduce two pieces of metal which are seperated by an insulator.  We then apply charge of unlike polarity.  It doesnt matter if it is positive negative just unlike polarization.  The plates fly towards each other.  Causing two vacated places where there was once very little vacuum because the plates were of mass not vacuum.  The plates had pressure.  In fact many many orders of atmospheric pressure would be needed to alter the pressure exerted in these plates.  We are now playing with the scaler vacuum field within the cylinder. Does the piston head respond to the plate movements?  If the plate movement is lined up with the cylinder head doesnt it instantly feel the ivacuum fluctuation.  The holding pin bending  exactly in time with the movement of the plates.  No wavelength no waiting for propogation just instantaneous information as to where the plates are.

Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2010, 07:27:50 AM »
@ Loner

Wow. You cover so much in one post.

As you know, light travels about 1 foot in a nanosecond. Take a wire that is 20 feet long and feed it with a 200 MHz square wave from a signal generator at one end and terminate the other end with 50 ohms.  Use a dual trace scope with one probe at the start of the wire and move the other probe along the wire. You should see the rise of the pulses in the two channels separating at about one nanosecond for each foot the probes are separated. At least that is the kind of results I got when I tried this. I spent many years making delay lines and this is exactly what they would do. The longer the wire is, the longer the signal is delayed getting from one end to the other. I also used taps along the lines for different time delays. All worked according to theory. So, what is happening with the spark gaps. I am going to have to take a guess here. The 3 gaps are like 3 capacitors in series. When a voltage is applied across the 3 capacitors in series, electrons accumulate on the plate of the capacitor at the negative terminal and electrons are removed from the plate at the positive terminal. When the electrons build up at the negative plate they push electrons on the other plate of that capacitor onto one of the plates of the center capacitor. And likewise, the removal of electrons from the positive terminal capacitor plate will pull electrons onto the other plate of that capacitor from the center capacitor. So electrons "effective;y" move from the plate of the capacitor at the negative terminal connected to the center capacitor to the plate of the capacitor at the positive terminal that is connected to the center capacitor. I hope you can follow all of that. It is just a case of electrons will always move as far apart from each other as they can. So, now where are the electrons? They are on the plates of the end capacitors (gaps). As the voltage builds up it will jump where there is the greatest difference in electrons on the plates (gaps) which is the end capacitors (gaps).

Holes are tricky. I got A's in two semesters of graduate level semiconductor classes. And I still can not give you a better explanation than that they are just places where the electrons are missing. When the crystals are made it is done in a way that does not produce as many electrons as are needed to balance the charge in all of the molecules. The crystal is a semiconductor which means that the electrons can move about. The result is that the molecules compete with each other for the electrons and some of them do not get any (there is a game where there is not enough chairs for everybody and someone ends up without a chair - it is sort of like that).

Yep. Electrons only move at a few cm per second in a wire. But the SIGNAL moves at the speed of light. Use your balls in tube. Paint one ball red and put it in at the start of the tube. Now push another ball into the tube. Bingo. A ball comes out the other end as soon as you push a new ball in (assuming the tube is full). But the red ball has only move the length of one ball.

I do not know anything about scalar waves. That is what I am hoping you can teach me about. Or at least share what you do know.

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2010, 07:27:50 AM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2010, 11:47:40 AM »
@ Loner

I think a better explanation for the spark gaps is as follows. The center capacitor has the same amount of charge on both plates to start with because it starts with no voltage charge on it. The other two capacitors prevent any charge from being added to either side of the center capacitor because a DC current can not flow through a capacitor. When voltages are applied to to outer capacitors the charges are rearrange in the wires attached to the center capacitor, but there is still always the same total amount of charge on both sides of the center capacitor since none can be added to either side. Since current is the flow of charge, and since sparks require current, there can not be any spark across the center capacitor because there is no charge difference on its plates to produce the current. There is no charge difference on the plates of the center capacitor until charge is added to one side or the other by a spark across one of the outer capacitors. When this happens, then a spark across the center capacitor is possible.

Offline BEP

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2010, 01:48:00 PM »

What you now have is three spark gaps, and what I always thought and assumed  was the gaps would fire 1,2,3 in that order.  Seems like that's the only way it could work, right?  Unfortunately for me, and it still bothers me to this day, is that the end gaps fire first, at the same time, and the center gap fires a little later.


Since there are already so may theories on why this happens....

If you step out of the box for a moment try this perspective...

1. Charge, and all the results of charge and its movement are properties of space.
2. This experiment provides examples of two things:
     a) how easy it is for results to be misinterpreted
     b) a prime example of LEM motion (yes, 'wave' is not a good word here)
3.  TEM cannot exist without LEM but LEM can exist without TEM.
4.  LEM current and voltage are always in-phase.
5.  Current does not flow at the ends first. No more than magnetic field lines exist without adding some iron filings.
6.  'c' is a constant and matter cannot exceed 'c' but changes in the properties of space can.

Back to your box now  :D



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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2010, 01:48:00 PM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2010, 01:49:07 PM »
I like Xee's second explanation best. Change the spark gaps to caps for an easier, lower voltage test. Apply a short pulse instead of using the switching of the gap.  I'll bet the results are the same.

The three gap test wasn't so much a test of how current flowed as it was for how switches switch.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 02:17:26 PM by BEP »

Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2010, 06:26:56 PM »
@ BEP

I like experiments. Theories are often not correct. But, it is hard to argue with the results of an experiment. Put 3 capacitor is series and then put a DC voltage (any voltage) across the end leads of the series. Now measure the voltage across the center cap. It is zero volts (my meter reads a few millivolts because the leads are picking up stray fields, I do not live in a Faraday cage  ;)).

Do you know what frequency the spectrum analyzer was set at to pick up your birdie signal?


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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2010, 06:26:56 PM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2010, 01:26:21 AM »
@ BEP

I like experiments. Theories are often not correct. But, it is hard to argue with the results of an experiment. Put 3 capacitor is series and then put a DC voltage (any voltage) across the end leads of the series. Now measure the voltage across the center cap. It is zero volts (my meter reads a few millivolts because the leads are picking up stray fields, I do not live in a Faraday cage  ;)).

I would expect that. Changes in charge level only happen on the leading and trailing edges of a pulse. 
Still, I cannot interpret the results as 'current flows at both ends, and not the middle, at the same time on a wire. It does if it has three capacitors or spark gaps in series in it.  ;D

Quote
Do you know what frequency the spectrum analyzer was set at to pick up your birdie signal?

The spectrum analyzer hunted for signatures from D.C. to 1.2 gHz. It was looking for signals carried by the LEM signal. The LEM signal from the birdie covered the entire spectrum and was below the noise floor on there and any standard radio receiver circuit.

If you wish to know what frequency the two devices used I don't think you understand what an LEM 'wave' is. I'm not completely sure either but I'll share some characteristics.

LEM signals do not require an antenna.

A coil designed to produce an LEM signal will measure almost zero inductance and very high capacitance (even though the coil is a DC short circuit).

Provided you had a very advanced tube type receiver an experienced operator could detect certain types of these signals. (At the time at least, the solid state receivers weren't capable of detecting the signal - MOSFets could. TRUE Metal Oxide Substrate Fets could)

If attempting to locate the source you were wasting your time. The signal direction displays showed the signal source as all directions at the same time.
When the signal was used as a clock source or carried data bits it appeared to rotate on the direction displays.
The un-initiated dubbed them 'rotary pulse jammers'.

To the birdie point.... The signal transmitted was Brownian noise - covering a conventional spread from 100kHz to 3mHz.

Yes, I know. TEM signals cannot modulate lower frequency TEM signals.

Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2010, 02:14:04 AM »
@ BEP

The spectrum analyzer hunted for signatures from D.C. to 1.2 gHz. It was looking for A carried by the LEM signal. The LEM signal from the birdie covered the entire spectrum and was below the noise floor on there and any standard radio A circuit.

This sounds a bit like a spread spectrum signal. This was a classified technology in the 1960's but is now what is used for wi-fi and cell phones. But then again, maybe it was a scalar wave signal. Do you know what "LEM" stands for? Is this short for "longitudinal electromagnetic"?

Spread spectrum uses phase modulation and can modulate any frequency.

Offline BEP

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2010, 03:07:22 AM »

Do you know what "LEM" stands for? Is this short for "longitudinal electromagnetic"?


Correct, but it was normally either electric or magnetic, not both.

The signals I mentioned were not SS or frequency hoppers. Even a newb fresh from school could identify and locate those within seconds. LEM wasn't used for communication except when digital or Morse code. The pulses were the data. There was no carrier, sidebands, harmonics or signal unless you were equipped and trained to receive it. The closest attribute to wave length was the duration of a pulse.

The closest I've seen recently is the original specification for UWB (ultra wide-band).
All of that signal was below the noise floor as well. Unfortunately, even UWB has been redefined and done differently than original. BPL (bandwidth over power line) uses some LEM methodology but the engineers have mangled it into a monstrous source of electronic noise. I'm sure they just couldn't imagine it would work as it was designed.


Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2010, 03:44:03 AM »
@ BEP

Original SS was below noise floor and UWB. That was the idea, it could not be detected because it was hidden in the noise. But, if not that then this is very interesting problem. I will have to think about it for a while. Thanks for the many details.

 

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