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Author Topic: Scalar Wave - Energy  (Read 91470 times)

Offline sparks

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2010, 05:09:24 PM »
    @Loner

   I was taught by people with closed minds that plasma only exists in the hot exhaust of a jet engine and lightning bolts.  This was in the 60's.  Now I find out it is in flurescent bulbs.  Spark gaps.  Interplanetary space.  A room temperature metal.  Now I find that a magnetically self pinching plasma defies laws of thermal dynamics.  The more energy introduced into the field occupied by the plasma the cooler the plasma appears.  Eventually I feel man will be able to create plasma at point a  bundle it and send it to pointb.  With electromagnetic stimulation that disrupts the selfgenerated currents of a plasma the plasma will transmute into hot gasses to be used in such machines as steam turbines. 
   Sorry about bringing up the problem Einstein spent his lifetime working on.  Finnally he comes to the conclusion that mass distorts time and space which is expanding.  Mass of course are dimples on the expanding Universe where things appear to be accelerated by gravity towards the center of mass while in his reality they are just stuck to a portion of the Universe that is not expanding at the same rate as the vacuum.
   As you can see I have focusing problems.  My mind is all over the place all of the time.  I need a little meditation time to slow this chemical computer down or I am going to cook the processor. :)

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2010, 05:09:24 PM »

Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2010, 11:09:49 PM »

@ Loner

Note:  I have, personally, seen a transmission of power/data from the inside of a Faraday cage to a device outside the same. 

A Faraday cage only shields against electric fields and RF fields. It does not shield against magnetic fields. You can take a compass into a Faraday cage and it will still point north. The device probably was using a magnetic field to send the data.

Shielding against magnetic fields is hard to do and is usually done with steel or high permeability material. Such shielding is not technically part of a Faraday cage. Faraday cages are usually made of copper screen or copper sheets since good conductivity is important in order to obtain good shielding.

Most researchers place small magnets around the Faraday cage to counteract the Earth's field if they are concerned about both electric and magnetic fields.

If you do a little research you should be able to verify this for yourself.


Offline fritz

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 01:55:43 AM »
Dear All,

First, I want to point out that it´s essential in such discussion to separate pure and elementary physics from engineering "thumb-rules" which are simplified for special engineering means.
Take the typical rf communication systems for example:
The goal is to spread information as wide and homogenous as possible. How do you achieve that ?
Well you have limited maximum transmitting power which is matched with the antenna to drive the free-air vacuum freefield impedance. So you try to excite the empty space or ether or whatever with a matched source.
In this scenario you couple the entire energy in the other media - and somewhere out in the far-field - another antenna (which is matched again to the media) couples the available energy at that point from the media in a matched way back to the receiver.
In such a setup both sides are matched to the "media" - in this case the empty space or however.
Because both sides are matched - there is no standing wave nor direct connectio in that media.
So if you turn on 1000 remote receivers+antenna - the power taken from the transmitter will always be the same. Even if there is no receiver.(well thats simplified but true in the far-field)
Well, if you want to transfer energy - this is the complete wrong technology.
If you want to transfer energy - you want the transmitter react to the receiver - both should be "in touch" - and if you don´t take energy out - you don´t want it to be transmitted.
So what happens if we skip that rf thumb-rules and approach the following scenario:
If we setup a transmitter + antenna system which is not matched to the empty space - but matche (impedance wise) to the energy receiver?
If there is no receiving antenna - the transmitting antenna will reflect the energy back to the transmitter (which is highly unwanted in normal setups).
Only if a loaded receiver is present - a standing wave between both antennas will establish - which guides the energy on the direct path. Because both antennas are matched to each others - but not to the media - you will have a standing wave between both antennas. This effects that impedance wise - both systems are "connected".
Similar situations are very typical in acoustic setups.
It´s still EM but has a wider context than radio or television broadcasting.

Buried Radiator Antennas:
Well, its all about matching.
In lower rf - frequencies the dominant transmission is tied to the ground - so you can tap the wave with a high antenna at empty space impedance - or in the ground with almost zero impedance. If you can match that impedance to your receiver- it makes no difference. A buried radiator sounds quite promising compared to a 20m cable between to apple trees;-)))


rgds.

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 01:55:43 AM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2010, 02:53:08 AM »
Scalar waves are an interesting theory its one of the first things I found interesting when browsing the net wound up here.

I wonder about a lot would it be possible or likely for quantum entanglement to play a role in this if the theory is correct or the other way around.


Offline BEP

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2010, 12:37:40 PM »
@Loner,

For your enjoyment.... http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/larson/1957_April.pdf

Yes, buried antenna were commonplace. What isn't common is the concept of an antenna image.

Oh, that little circuit-board... For us it was in an olive-drab aluminum box with an AN-T??? number. We just called it the 'birdie'. The receiver was called a 'bird-watcher'. And yes, the birdie could be heard 'chirping' from inside a passive or active 'cage', whether they leaked or not.

They weren't using the birdie to test for leaks. It was used to test for inside signals modulating the birdie signal. They didn't want the TEM portion of the birdie signal getting out. After all, back then everyone had a birdie  ;)

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2010, 12:37:40 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2010, 01:00:01 PM »
...
Sending signals, or even a good amount of power, 100 Meters, with signals in the 100 meter "Band" is easy to do in a few days work.  (You could do it faster than I, I bet...)  That would be a "Normal" near-field transmission, and not at all applicable to this type of concept.
...

My experiment was carefully done for eliminating all possibilities of EM waves. I did not use a 100 m wave length, but a 150 km wave length (2 Khz)!

Quote
...
As for "A Wave Propagates", we must be careful.  Standing waves do not,
...

"Standing waves" are superposition of propagating waves of equal amplitude traveling in opposing directions, giving us the impression they are static.
But "standing waves" are not "static waves". If there was no propagation, then the waves would have no speed thus no wave length and we would not observe nodes and anti-nodes at particular positions depending on the wave length.

People who found the laws of physics were not morons. They were intelligent people with IQ over the mean. So before challenging them, we have to understand what they found. Only then, we will be able to comprehend if something else is missing or wrong and only obvious experiments will can prove it. In the FE area there are too much immodest tinkers, blind believers or egocentric self-proclamed genious, who claim they found the holy grail when they are just misinterpreting well known phenomenons, because of their ignorance (imho more than 50% here). These pretentious and ridiculous people make the others to waste their time, attrack in the field ignorant and naive followers and discredit the real science amateur searchers. "Scalar waves" is one of their blah, a magical word like "back emf" or "radiant energy", sounding in their incantations and in the preaches of gurus like Bearden, Bedini and many others who have not yet a working FE machine when they tell us about it for 20 years!

I'm sorry I can't continue to discuss philosophy because it is very time consuming (english is not my first language). My simple message is:
"Standing on the shoulders of giants"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants



Offline sparks

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2010, 02:21:37 PM »
   ex

  If the energy of the wave is reflected with some loss to the reflecting media then the wave returns and another input is introduced just bout that time.  Soon a number of waves with their associated power are accumulated or superimposed on one another.  The energy input which produces the wave is regained less radiative losses depending on the emission characteristics of the reflecting media.  The standing wave then increases in energy density.  The energy of each input does not disappear because the conservation of energy is real.  A lazer is a lazer no matter what the frequency.

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2010, 02:21:37 PM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2010, 05:04:36 PM »
   ex

  If the energy of the wave is reflected with some loss to the reflecting media then the wave returns and another input is introduced just bout that time.  Soon a number of waves with their associated power are accumulated or superimposed on one another.  The energy input which produces the wave is regained less radiative losses depending on the emission characteristics of the reflecting media.  The standing wave then increases in energy density.  The energy of each input does not disappear because the conservation of energy is real.  A lazer is a lazer no matter what the frequency.

I'm not sure to understand what you mean. The source for standing waves needs just to compensate the losses to maintain the same field amplitude (unlike a propagating wave that carries energy taken from the source). In the ideal case, energy is only needed for building the standing wave when energy accumulates in some places depending on the interference pattern of forward and backward propagating waves.
When there are losses, the problem reduces to a propagating wave that "refuels" the energy depletion.

This point is not related to my experiment for transmitting signals at a distance with a near field. A near field is not a standing wave, it is just a field near the source, ideally at distance less than a quater of wave length. At this distance, there is no propagating plane wave (it forms farther if conditions are met, such antennas), B and E are not perpendicular and there is no relation between their amplitudes unlike an EM plane wave, i.e the Poynting vector is irrelevant to know the energy flux. It is the case near coils powered with signals at some Khz: E=0 and energy moves from the coil current to the B field and back to the coil at each period of the alternative signal. The B field can be detected at a distance thus we can transmit signals. Naturally energy conservation occurs. It is the same way one can transmit energy between to LC coupling devices.




Offline sparks

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2010, 07:22:31 PM »
  I just see my standing A standing in the resonant system. ???  But the nearfield of the oscillator is a mixture of any other magnetic field disruptions which may be occuring at the same time even though at great distances.  The magnetic field permeating the space of the oscillator is a mixture of many current induced magnetic field flux changes.  Therefore the restoration of the magnetic field to the precurrent conditions will carry the energy of the distant scources into the sytem.  The resonance of the system will determine which frequencies are cohered with the magnetic flux changes induced by the oscillator currents.

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2010, 07:22:31 PM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2010, 09:36:11 PM »
@ Loner

sorry about this.

Thanks for the "story". I thought maybe you did not know much about Faraday cages, but I see I was wrong.

Offline fritz

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2010, 09:42:27 PM »
Fritz, I like that concept, especially about the "Ground", Zero Impeadance connection.

I really think that fits, to a point, as you are then conducting the RF through the "Earth" or "Ground" and if this is possible with standard RF circuits, then I have a tremendous amount of learning to do.

For example, an antenna "Dummy" load, for tuning transmitters, is a resistor (OK, this is also simplified...) that doesn't radiate, or is shielded.  The confusing part, for me, here is the shield is connected to ground.  For a buried antenna, the ground is still the shield connection, but also the radiating part, so the entire "Earth" becomes the radiating part?  I get so confused.....

Were I to measure the resistance between the radiator and the "Ground", I do realize this is very different from the impeadance, but might that mean that the ground/Dirt between the "Radiator" and the "Ground Rod" becomes the radiating part of the transmission ckt?  I just get so lost with this stuff, and am always trying to learn, as RF still, to this day, drives me nuts.  It's almost as if EM RF and Scalar "RF" were easily interchangeable, if such exists at all.

Ground may play multiple roles in EM.
The radiator thing might be interesting up to few MHz, classical HAM frequencies. In that frequency bands - part of the energy is emitted as ground  bound wave. Thats the reason why ground plays a special role here.

If we talk about vhf and even higher - ground "as real" ground  has an almost different meaning. On high mounted pole antennas  - you have multiple (typ. 3 or more) downwards turned poles which form the "virtual ground" for the upwards turned  "antenna" pole. The higher you get in frequency - "real ground" is just a barrier - the propagation itself  is almost "optical". (with lots of athmospheric specials - but thats ham stuff).

Or if you take a satellite - how to ground a satellite ????
OK - we have a satellite with vhf antenna - so if the satellite case is shielded - we can use that as floating ground in the oposite to our standing pole antenna.  Designs involving a "ground" concept are asymmetrical. So you have one (relatively) low impedance path (ground) and a high impedance path (pole)..
Or take the HAARP thing - they ionize huge spaces in the athmosphere and use that as antenna. In this case we have no ground - its symmetrical and in loop configuration

Back to our radiator antenna. Its quite obvious that the impedance of free space propagation will be different (higher impedance) than the impedance of ground bound wave.
Well there are magnetic antennas (loops) and electric antennas (poles).
If you bury a loop in the ground and match the output power of the transmitter to that low impedance you have a nice setup.
I think you missed out the magnetic vs. electric antenna thing.
While electric antennas need "ground" - loops dont.

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2010, 09:42:27 PM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2010, 11:08:29 PM »
@ Loner

Quote from: Loner link=topic=8244.msg225380#msg225380 A=1264691348
I wasn't aware that EM could be sent from underground that way, but hams did it for years.  I still have a copy of "The Radio Amateurs Handbook" from the 50's and another from the 60's.  It's in the 50's copy, but strangely missing from the 60's copy.  I never understood that, so it's a question for me.)

At low frequencies the ground is such a small part of a wavelength that is effectively not there. It is like holding a piece of paper in front of a cell phone antenna.

Quote from: Loner link=topic=8244.msg225380#msg225380 A=1264691348
Just for a history fact, the Colorado tower of Tesla's wasn't in near field by any means, yet transmitted power easily. 

 ??? All transmit antennas are in near field by definition.


Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2010, 01:41:36 AM »
@ Loner

Xee2, maybe you could help me

I will try.  I have a pretty good background in antenna design.

And maybe you can help me. I know nothing about "scalar waves" and you seem to have done some research on them. You also seem to be objective about your opinions so you seem like someone I could ask questions without having you feel like I was attacking you.

Near field means "near the transmitter antenna". The energy from the transmitter antenna falls off as 1/(R^2) but this only happens some distance from the transmitter (usually assumed to be about 3 wavelengths). Near the transmitter the energy is much higher and it is easy to couple as much as half of the energy to a receiving antenna. Note that distances are in wavelenths and so are frequency dependent. One wavelenght at 1 MHz is 1000 feet. At 1 KHZ a wavelength is one million feet. So at low frequencies the near field can extend for a great distance. At distances less than 1/10th wavelength the antenna coupling is pretty much just the capacitive coupling between the antennas. So I suspect that much of the "scalar wave" results are simply near field results. But, I am trying to find out if there is more to it than that.


 

Offline xee2

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2010, 02:09:14 AM »
@ Loner

I find it interesting that it could be a normal type of EM signal and get through shielding, where a high power swept signal could not.

Do you know about "skin depth" of RF signals? A low frequency signal can go through many feet of steel whereas a microwave signal will bounce off only a fraction of an inch of steel.

Offline BEP

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Re: Scalar Wave - Energy
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2010, 04:02:38 AM »
@Loner,

The 'birdie' was about the size of a baking soda box with nothing protruding from it and no holes. The only control was an on/off push button. The seams were soldered. I'm quite sure the box was made from aluminum.

The receiver was identical except it had a BNC output jack. It was connected to a spectrum analyzer/scope to display phase modulation of the signal and any other signals that may have modulated the carrier.

I was only an operator at that time so I didn't have the 'need to know' to see a schematic. I know the transmitter had three transistors with no heat sinks and a thick ferrite rod with 2 coils wrapped around it. The coils were covered in heat-shrink tubing. One coil only covered about half an inch of the rod and was at one end. The second coil covered the majority of the rod and looked much like a caduceus coil would look if it was covered with heat-shrink tubing.

The same tests were performed in two U.S. embassies and many tactical AN/TRD-23A system enclosures, that I know of.

The interesting part was to be inside and see the look on a newb's face when the door was shut and his getto-blaster lost the broadcast radio signal. Yet, we could still see the signal from that little box inside from the outside when the same door was shut.

Ah! The good ol' days of the Cold War!  :D

IMO, the folks thinking it was magnetic coupling are yanking their own chains  :)

@ex

First time I've seen someone describe a 'standing wave' correctly in years  :)

 

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