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Author Topic: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !  (Read 100970 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« on: November 01, 2009, 03:14:09 AM »
Hi All,
we have a breakthrough in selfmade Zinc Air batteries.

These types of batteries can have about 4 times more power
than normal Li-Ion batteries.

Also Zinc is very widely available and these batteries can not explode
versus Lithium batteries, so Zinc Air Cells are very safe and environment friendly.

Now a few Swedish experimentors have come up with a selfmade version which puts out
1.5 amp for this little cell they made.

Here is the translated posting from Google translator,
unfortunately I don´t speak Swedish and the automatic translation
is not too good, maybe a few swedish people can help translate it better:

See:
http://elbil.forum24.se/elbil-about844-0-asc-100.html
   
A short and quick summary of the evening kolpressning:
-WOW!
Is still somewhat confused and shocked by the unbelievable high power values obtained from our respective testing luftkatoder ...!
MrBlues would obviously be the worst (...) and pulled early for a peak current value of all 3 amps from a testyta of about 4 cm2 ......!
Then kolpressningen was the first and so rather imperfect and ooptimerad later found probable value could be somewhat senseless 1 amp per cm2! ! !
-The mixing of manganese nitrate, carbon black and Teflon as MrBlues has confused is therefore verging on the professional class, while being hydrophobic, and so reduces the need for a separate (hydrophobic) air-diaphragm on the first try ......
I was actually rather småsur (...) and I thought everything that I could also donor to a sensational value stream ...
Mkt really, about 1.5 amperes from an area of about 4 cm2. In my defense may be that Teflon The involvement was in substandard and imprecise way. There is clearly an enormous improvement to be done! Yet compared with the peak-power value obtained previously at home the other day, the 140 mA (0.140 A), was the result of Teflon and off considerably for the better, now, therefore, 0.375 A per cm2, which also must be improved with optimized compression and Teflon-percent.
MrBlues got their entire Air Cathode pre-pressed before hemmfärds-time, and learn well probably put together a complete full-scale cell at home in the garage shortly. This will give their all 200 cm2 of an overall peak-current of 1 A by 200 cm2 = 200 Ampere (two hundred amperes), folks, we're talking thick jumper cables here ....!
As I said, still have not quite recovered myself, may write more later when I calmly me ....

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 03:23:13 AM »
Before the user Anders wrote in Swedish:

I väntan på den stora pressardagen görs ett förtest med endast en liten testbit av strömnät och Silverkolpulver manuellt muskel-pressat med tesked över 1 cm2 yta, Nedsänkt i en liten rostfri bytta med Zink i botten och Luftkatoden ovanför mäts den lilla ström som ev kommer från så liten yta. Med alla (ca 5) gram Silver som lösts upp i Silvergeneratorn och förhoppningsvis/troligtvis adsorberats i kolpulvret är det inte helt orimliga värdet 50 mA kontinuerligt (nominellt) tänkbart, kanske tom 100 mA !
Detta innebär i så fall för den färdiga prototypcellen på ca 200 cm2 att minimum 10 A kommer ur den lilla lunchlådan (cellkärlet) med samtidigt 1 V, vilket blir 10 W effekt, ungefär vad en baklampa drar..! I bästa fall 20 A, och 20 W..!
Om dessa värden uppnås är steget inom räckhåll för en praktisk (halvkommersiell) batteriproduktion., i första hand för ett batteripaket till den egna elutombordaren som drar 32 A (12 V). Känslan av att åka runt med dingen ljudlöst driven av ett helt eget hemmagjort batteripaket som bara går och går utan att nästan aldrig ta slut, till tiondelens vikt och pris mot bly, är värd flera gånger om den möda som hittills lagts på detta batteriprojekt ! Ser framför mig hur jag skrattar och nästan hånler åt dom numera svindyra och alltjämt ändå värdelösa blyklumparna vid en promenad bland tex Biltemas batterihyllor.....och tänker på vad var och en själv så genant mkt bättre och nästan pinsamt lätt kan åstadkomma hemma i garaget (eller köket) med busbilliga och busenkla medel -Zink-Luftbatteriet.
När och om dessa testresultat bekräftas avses en enkel skriftlig sumering på Svenska och Engelska i denna batteri-byggarkonst göras och läggas ut på diverse elfordons-sajter Jorden runt. Samt ev att en video för tex YouTube görs och läggs upp där. Uppmanar Er Forumsmedlemmar att redan nu förbereda medverkan till denna revolutionerande kunskap-spridning. Ju fler som vet, desto bättre!
Eftersom inte alla vare sig har tid eller förutsättningar att själva sätta ihop ett Zink-Luftbatteri från grunden, förstås varför en kommersiell batterifabrik kan komma att etableras (fritt av den som vill!) så småningom. Tänker för egen del i så fall på Estland med låglönearbetskraft och billigare fabrikslokaler samt materiel. Fast säger ju inte heller nej till Svenska bidrags-incitament, från kanske kommuner som högt värderar och eftersträvar nya arbetstillfällen... Så ett nytt Tudor är inte omöjligt för min del !

Bilden nedan visar det nu torkade Silverkolet, som smetats jämt och slätt (bara för att det gick...). Anar därtill nu hur förmodligen träkolsbriketter (för grillning) framställs. Först smular man kol (träkols-aska, eller gruvbrutet mineral-stenkol) och sedan pressar ihop det i en form, förmodligen också impregnerat med fotogen eller annat flyktigt brännbart...!?

Inte världens snyggaste förtest (se bilder), men fick till en hyffsad test-luftkatod med det nya Silverkolet (för prototyp nr 3). Effektiv Luftkatodarea drygt 1 cm2, dock inte alls nämnvärt sammanpressat kolpulver...
Så vad blev det för värden då på Amperemätaren................? (ursäkta, försöker bara hålla Er på spänn...)
Okej,........första nedsänkningen i elyten gav så stora värden samtidigt som den tämligen batterisvaga digitalmultimetern fladdrade i displayen...att jag undrade om ett UFO just paserade ovanför huset..... -Hela 140 mA toppnoterades från denna lilla förskrämda testbit på endast 1 cm2......! Att jämföras med förra prototypen nr 2 som nästan skäms med sina endast 5 mA/cm2 (1 A maxström per 190 cm2 katodarea)..... Teoretiskt skulle den maximala strömtätheten kanske kunna fördubblas vid en optimal sammanpressning (till den dubbla kolvikten per volym), alltså 280 mA/cm2...! Snällt avrundat uppåt blir det 300 mA/cm2, samma som proffskatoderna har nominellt (kontinuerligt)!
-Ha, Electric Fuel och Company, släng er i väggen....!
Ja, ja, nu varade inte lyckan hela tiden. Efter första nedsänkningen (mitt pucko dränkte ju hela Luftkatoden så att ingen luft kunde komma åt Luftmembranet) togs den upp och torkades av på ovanytan, sänktes nu denna gång inte ner mer än att Luftmembranet var aldeles ovanför elyt-ytan, och fick lite olika värden allt eftersom; 30 mA ena stunden, 70 andra, osv, men tror att ett rimligt genomsnittsvärde hamnar på 50 mA kontinuerlig max strömtäthet!
-Inte dåligt pinkat ändå!
Med en lyckad pressning blir detta värde till kanske 100 mA/cm2...-Nu pratar vi snart batterifabrik i Estland nästa...!
Nu blir ju dock det nominella (kontinuerliga) strömvärdet (vid nominellt spänningsfall på 0,4 V) ännu lägre då ovan siffror gäller ren kortslutning rätt igenom Amperemätaren (med tillföljande 0 V), kanske en tiondel av topp-maxvärdet (enl tidigare prototyp), skulle isf ge ca 30 mA/cm2.

Så här dagen efter testet gjordes en ny strömkoll, och det där första berömda supervärdet på 140 mA ville väl inte direkt infinna sig, mätaren står och fladrar mellan 70 och 30 mA som vanligt, bara en kort knappt märkbar högre strömpuls aldeles i början på nedsänkningen i elyten. Uppskattar alltjämt nuvarande kontinuerliga max-strömtäthet till ca 50 mA/cm2, och då tidigare experiment givit att kontinuerligt nominellt strömvärde (vid 0,4 V spänningsfall) varit ca en sjundedel av toppvärdet , fås 7 mA/cm2. Om pressningen lyckas fördubbla detta till 14 mA är väl osäkert, men garderar med 10 mA som för nu uppskattat slutresultat, vilket skulle ge endast 2 A kontinuerligt ur lunchlådan (cellkärlet) samtidigt med 1 V och effekten 2 W.
-Ropade hurra innan det kanske egentligen var dags....fast återstår konkretare uppgifter framåt Onsdag.
Återkommer då!


English automatic Google translation:

In anticipation of the big presses days makes a förtest with only a small testbit of Strömnäs and Silverkolpulver manual muscle-pressed with the teaspoon over 1 cm2 of surface, submerged in a small stainless steel tub with zinc in the bottom and Luftkatoden measured above the small stream that possibly comes from so little space. With all (about 5) grams of silver dissolved in Silver Generator and hopefully / probably adsorbed in the toner is not completely unreasonable value of 50 mA continuous (nominal) conceivable, maybe even 100 mA!
That means if so, to the finished prototype cell to approximately 200 cm2 to a minimum 10 A comes from the little lunch box (cell receptacle) simultaneously with 1 V, which is 10 watts, about what a drag baklampa ..! At best, 20 A, and 20 W..!
If those values are the step within the reach of a convenient (semi-commercial) battery production., Primarily for a battery pack to its own elutombordaren that draws 32 A (12 V). The feeling of going around with dingen noiselessly driven by an entirely his own home made battery pack, which just goes and goes, but that almost never end, to the tenth lens weight and price of lead, is worth several times over the effort so far put on this battery project! Can imagine how I laughed and almost FLEER at them now the expensive and yet still worthless blyklumparna for a walk among tex Biltemas battery shelves ..... and think about what each of you so embarrassing mkt better and almost embarrassingly easy to make at home garage (or kitchen) with busbilliga and busenkla medium-Zinc-air battery.
When and if these test results are confirmed for a simple sumering written in Swedish and English in this battery-byggarkonst and posted on various electric vehicle sites Around the World. And possibly a video for YouTube for example is made and placed there. Forum Members urge you to begin to prepare the participation of this revolutionary knowledge-dissemination. The more who know, the better!
Since not all neither the time nor the skills to put together a zinc-air battery from scratch, of course, why a commercial battery factory could be set up (free by anyone who wants to!) Eventually. Thinking for themselves, if so, to Estonia with low-wage labor and cheaper factory premises and equipment. Fast says, nor against the Swedish premium incentives, perhaps from the municipalities that places a high value and seek new jobs ... So a new Tudor is not impossible, for my part!

The figure below shows the now dried silver carbon, which smetats still and smooth (just because it happened ...). Suspect being now probably the charcoal briquettes (for grilling) is produced. First, it crumbles carbon (charcoal-ash, or mine broken mineral coal) and then presses it together in one form, probably also impregnated with kerosene or other volatile combustible ...!?

Not the world's nicest förtest (see pictures), but got a fairly test the air cathode with the new silver carbon (the prototype No. 3). Efficient Air Cathode area just over 1 cm2, but not significantly compressed powdered charcoal ...
So what were the values for which the ampere meter ................? (sorry, just trying to keep you in the span ...)
Okay ,........ initial sets of elyten gave such large values, while the relatively weak battery, digital multimeter flickered on the screen ... I was wondering if a UFO Pasera just above the house ..... -All 140 mA peak was observed from this small frightened testbit of only 1 cm2 ......! Compared with the previous prototype No. 2, almost embarrassed by their mere 5 mA/cm2 (1A maximum current per 190 cm2 of cathode area )..... Theoretically, the maximum current density may be doubled for optimum compaction (the dual kolvikten per volume), then 280 mA/cm2 ...! Nicely rounded up will be 300 mA/cm2, the same as pro cathodes are nominal (continuous)!
-Ha, Electric Fuel and Company, throw you into the wall ....!
Yes, yes, now lasted no happiness at all times. After the first immersion (my asshole drowned the whole course Luftkatoden so that no air could get at Air membrane), took it up and dried by the above-surface, now reduced this time do not spend more than the air above the membrane was aldeles elyt-surface, and got slightly different values ever since; 30 mA One minute, 70 second, etc., but believe that a reasonable average value ports of 50 mA maximum continuous current density!
-Not bad pinkat anyway!
With a successful pressing is this value to perhaps 100 mA/cm2...-Nu we talk soon battery factory in Estonia next ...!
Now it will of course be the nominal (continuous) current value (at nominal voltage drop of 0.4 V) even lower when the above figures are clean right through the short circuit ampere meter (with the following 0 V), perhaps one tenth of the peak-maximum value (according to earlier prototype) , ISF would provide about 30 mA/cm2.

Here's the day after the test, a new current track, and that first famous super-value of 140 mA did not exactly appear, the meter is and fladrar between 70 and 30 mA, as usual, just a short slightly noticeable higher current pulse aldeles in early immersion in elyten. Estimates are still present continuous maximum current density of about 50 mA/cm2, and when the previous experiment gave continuous rated current value (at 0.4 V voltage drop) was about one-seventh of the peak value, phase 7 mA/cm2. If pressing successfully double this to 14 mA is well uncertain, but hedging with 10 mA, which is now estimated for the final result, which would give only 2 A continuously from lunch box (cell receptacle) simultaneously with 1 W and 2 W power
-Cried hurray before it might actually came time .... was still more concrete tasks ahead Wednesday.
We will return then!

=================================

Maybe someone can help with a better translation ?
Many thanks in advance.

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 03:39:29 AM »
Hi Hartiberlin.

I think Aluminum Air batteries have the highest energy density.

you can use powered aluminum from the local automotive store, it is used to seal radiator leaks, get the non liquid kind in a tube. for testing purposes.

Zinc Air is pretty good though, especially since pennies are so cheap to come by.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 03:39:29 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 04:17:47 AM »
Yes, I am working on a Aluminium air battery for LED lighting.

Here is a video of a man Rolf Papsdorf, who really has the REAL thinking of what is life all about
and his Zinc-Air Fuel-Cell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7iiKVoIpO4

Enjoy the smiles of the kid´s faces !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 04:32:27 AM »
2009 Economic Development Award Laureate
Alternative Energy for Empowerment
Laureate Country: South Africa
Project Countries: South Africa, Namibia, Malawi, Zambia
Website: www.aedc.co.za

Rolf Papsdorf of Alternative Energy Development Corporation (AEDC), developed a line of environmentally friendly, inexpensive zinc-air fuel cells that generate energy 24/7, for non grid electrification.

According to the International Energy Agency, 1.6 billion people worldwide, mostly in poor, rural communities, do not have access to electricity. The GUYUNI and Rosh Pinah community, in Africa, was using harmful materials such as paraffin and candles to illuminate dark areas.

The largest zinc air fuel cell project in the world has been implemented by AEDC in the village of Guyuni, South Africa. 300 dwellings now have lights, 27 rural people now have a disposable income through job creation, and a vegetable garden uses waste zinc oxide - created by the fuel cells during energy production - as high value fertilizer, providing food security.

See:
http://www.aedc.co.za

They also sell these nice Zinc Air fuel cells.
These are unfortunately not rechargeable and the ZINC Anode
must be exchanged.

But there are now also rechargeable Zinc Air batteries.

Have a look at:
http://www.revolttechnology.com/technology/revolt-introduction.php

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 04:32:27 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 04:35:52 AM »
Here are 2 videos of the selfmade Zinc Air cell delivering over 1 amp
at around 0.8 Volts on a big motor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s35sJwX1jlo

http://www.youtube.com/user/moviemax66#p/a/u/1/iiDyAWYih7Q

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 07:48:24 AM »
aluminum havent been found to be rechargable, so its considered a primary battery source.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 07:48:24 AM »
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Offline hoptoad

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 12:17:36 PM »
Here are 2 videos of the selfmade Zinc Air cell delivering over 1 amp
at around 0.8 Volts on a big motor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s35sJwX1jlo

http://www.youtube.com/user/moviemax66#p/a/u/1/iiDyAWYih7Q
I watched the videos and followed the info links, but unfortunately I only speak and read English. One of my many deficiencies!   LOL

Are there any information sources available, detailing the principle of operation, the construction, and materials used, (written in english) ??

I am intrigued and would love to know more.

Cheers

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 10:27:35 PM »
For the selfmade battery with the high 1.5 amps output it seems it is easy to build: They used graphite or lamp black mixed with maganese nitrate and a teflon solution liquid as the anode and put this onto a stainless steel mesh as the electron capture and connection metal. The other electrode is just a piece of Zinc plate. As the electrolyte between the electrodes they are using KOH solution in water. It seems to help if the graphite or lampblack is doped with colloidal silver solution before. To me this seems simular to using black powder.instead of exploding a mix of blackpowder with zinc powder, which you can use in fireworks , here you oxidize with the help of the maganese nitrate the zinc and the lampblack or graphite of this mix is just your one electrode and the zinc is your other electrode... So more or less it is the same reaction like burning gunpowder or fireworks but you get all the energy out slowly as moving electrons....

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 10:27:35 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2009, 10:35:02 PM »
instead of manganese nitrate it will probably also work with pottasium nitrate which is the oxidizer component in blackpowder and is cheaper and easier to get...I have not read up for what they are using this teflon liquid but probably only to make the surface area bigger..

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 10:53:08 PM »
p.s. by using graphite paper for the mix you will not need anymore the stainless steel mesh so the battery gets cheaper again. Just mix graphite doped with colloidal silver and KNO3 and a acrylic binder and put this on a sheet of paper and you have the perfect conducting electrode for it. then you only need KOH solution and a zinc plate and that is all you need.. It is simular to my AL/Air battery.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 10:53:08 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 02:45:17 AM »
Today I experimented with trying to do a simplified Grätzel
solarcell, which did not work yet ( I don´t yet have Tindioxid for the glas
and also no iodide solution yet... will be done in a few days..)
but I saw something else.

I mixed Titandioxid with lampblack ( conductive carbon) and hibiscus tee and
a bit vinegar
and put it onto a glas disc and heated it up with
a candle so I also had lamp black from the candle and the
dried up mix as a film on the glas surface.


When I used this glas disc as one electrode and
my graphite paper ( pure lampblack with acrylic binder)
as the other electrode,
I already got about 0.3 Volts
in saltwater electrolyte( NaCL -water solution).

But there was no light sensivity from the glas disc...!

So it seems the Grätzel Solarcells really needs the  PN layer of the
glas ITO surface versus the TiO2 powder.

As I did not have any ITO layer on the glas, I don´t have a light sensitive
PN layer, but this cell anyway produces 0.3 Volts and at least half a milliamp
shortcircuit current ( only depending on the surface area..)

So maybe this is converting environmental heat to electricity ?

Who knows...
Maybe a cell from graphite-TiO2 on one electrode and
conductive SnO2 on the other electrode will work ?

I will order some SnO2 and some iodide solution now to test this all out.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hoptoad

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 11:46:27 AM »
instead of manganese nitrate it will probably also work with pottasium nitrate which is the oxidizer component in blackpowder and is cheaper and easier to get...I have not read up for what they are using this teflon liquid but probably only to make the surface area bigger..
Thanks for all the added info.

Cheers

Offline neutrino

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 03:41:21 PM »
Hi hartiberlin and everyone else!
-Wery much thanks for the interest in this zinc air project!
I (or any ony else back at the "Elbil" forum) will, in due time, try to put forward mor info in english on this great forum, and explain to what level this zinc air cell has achived!

The quest and prototype work for a fully working (and rechargeable) zinc air cell is still persued on a more direct (semi-)commersial base on www.cavac.se (by me only), allthough the work lately has been stucked to miner obstacles (lacking of inspiration and support from associates, and a garage/workshop to work in).

The prototype pictures seen here
http://cavac.se/produkter.html
are the very present state of the project.

There are so many aspects of a battery that it takes much time and efforts to describe and explain every questions (all over again).
For me to manage this I would prefer to just answer straghit forward on direct simple questions, if thats all right?!

I know from later on this forum, how much knowledge and expertise there is amongst the forum member here.
It would be funn, and also probely, that many knew interesting asspects vill appear in this thread about smart solutions about how to best construct a zinc air battery.

And yes, it is very easy to do a zinc-air battery your self!

neutrino / Anders

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Getting amps from small selfmade DIY Zinc Air cells, amazing !
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 08:45:41 PM »
Hi Anders,
many thanks for the infos.

How much does this cell cost ?

Please post more infos,
so maybe you get many orders for it ?

It would be ideal for LED lighting and other small current applications,
especially also in the 3rd world, where the people have no grid power !

Maybe also some other forum members, who can speal Swedish language
can please help to translate your pages at:

http://indux.se/Projekt%20Zink-Luftbatteri-sida8.html
and the other pages from
http://indux.se/Projekt%20Zink-Luftbatteri-sida1.html
to page 8 on.

Many thanks in advance and looking forward to a great discussion
about selfmade powerful batteries, so we we get more energy independant from
the big companies...

Regards, Stefan.

 

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