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Author Topic: Understanding electricity in the TPU.  (Read 361706 times)

gyulasun

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #300 on: May 23, 2010, 12:28:22 AM »
...

Is it possible to use 5 to 10 of these JFETs in parallel to increase the handling capability because I would like to still use the IRF840 and the IRF9540 on the poles and use some of these in parallel in the center?
...


Hi Wattsup,

Yes it is possible. Unfortunately the jfet types you refer to are small signal types, this means a few mA (between 2-20mA) max drain-source current and 20-30V max drain-source voltage. By connecting several ones of the same type in parallel, (drains to drains, sources to sources, gates to gates) you can increase drain source current handling but not voltage of course.
These types have a rather high drain-source resistance, they are not designed directly for switching purposes. Of course you can use them as a switch in a circuit that considers this high channel resistance but in a resonant tank circuit this is not easy if possible at all. 
You can check with an Ohm meter the drain-source resistances of your jfets: choose any one of them and connect its gate to its own source directly and measure between this common connection and its drain.
What you will see on the meter it is the ON channel resistance at zero gate-source voltage and at about 2.5-3V drain-source voltage what your Ohm meter possess between its probes in that measuring range.

The Data sheet for instance for the PN4416A type says IDSS ranges from 5 to 15mA measured at 15V drain-source voltage, this current defines the ON state channel resistance: if it is (suppose) 10mA for a particular device, then rDS=15V/10mA=1.5kOhm!  not a friendly value in a high Q tank circuit...   and if you connect 20 of them in parallel, you still will have a switch with 1500/20=75 Ohm ON resistance (if all the 20 jfets had the same 1500 Ohm channel resistance which is the case only if you select them!).

For a hefty and good jfet switch you may have to resort to the type I gave earlier, probably expensive, but it has 1000V VDSS and several Amper IDSS and a channel resistance of  about  .07-.08 Ohm.  It is a normally closed switch (with zero gate-source voltage.

There is a solution to get a normally open switch from two power MOSFETs connected in series, see Figure 6 in Page 5 of this application note: http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1017.pdf     
Because the PVI device (PhotoVoltaic Isolator) driving the common gates is rather slow in switching speed (only max. some hundred Hertz) you can use a small audio transformer or a pulse transformer to control the two MOSFETs by faster pulses. (The transformer's coil DC resistance would help discharge the gate-source nF capacitance, together with a few kOhm parallel resistor if needed.)
If you settle for  .1-1A current and 50-150V voltage, then you can get higher speed (some hundred usec) from solid state relay devices that include the series MOSFET pair and the PVI device in a single case, see here:
http://www.dionics-usa.com/product_index_2.htm  and there is a comparison chart here: http://www.dionics-usa.com/PDFs/relay_comparison.pdf  They have normally closed switch types too.

But in case you build your own series MOSFET switch with pulse transformer to drive, you can get the highest speed. And you can choose the switch parameters like ON channel resistance, max drain-source voltage and current, the speed is limited only by the pulse transformer.

rgds,  Gyula

Mannix

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #301 on: May 23, 2010, 05:00:25 AM »
Or..use bottles as per the inventors advise

giantkiller

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #302 on: May 23, 2010, 06:03:56 PM »
Device design topology #1
Tubes: Large polarized electron cloud.
Ferrous cores: Large polarized electron/flux reservoir.
Large copper loops: Large polarized magnetic/flux reservoir.
Eclipsing magnetic fields: Polarized magnetic/flux field manipulation.

Device design topology #2
Bipolar solid state: Minute nonpolarized electron flow.
Field effect solid state: Minute magnetic junction.

As one can see the solid state is not the environment to achieve the correct manipulation and has no volume for feedback. The design can not hope to achieve what the feedback is used for when dealing with such a small area. The configuration that works is a circuit that includes the topology for feedback of volume.

The device has characteristics of fast switching, emissions, and feedback, amplification. The amplification is inherent via the topology of the configuration. The feedback is achieved impressing upon the volume of usable electrons or flux. The fast switching is achieved by Bloch wall manipulation and no other way(The spark gap achieves this quite easily). The electron position or angular placement in space is the key factor and not at some junction or flow point where there is not enough volume for control.
Attempts at component control will only lead to extensive component research, purchasing and testing. The results happen in space and not at the component level.

This is what Spherics and Erfinder were driving at. I refer to the Atomic bomb tower setup by Spherics and the Telsa Ionizer patent and circuit description by Erfinder.

Or..use bottles as per the inventors advise
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 06:30:01 PM by giantkiller »

giantkiller

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #303 on: May 24, 2010, 03:59:08 AM »
The Bloch wall would be moving around circumferrally at the same speed as the snake biting its tail. I believe it is moving faster than our current bench equipment can measure.
A charged iron ring is active as long as it is in a ring. Break the ring with an LED across it and you get a visual discharge. We know this. I was promoting all topologies as a mix. I was making the feedback the primary concern and stating where it lies with each of the topos. I am setting up a build right now with a gate and drain lines going through a ferrite ring. Drain line will then go to a larger horizontal loop.
The idea is to use solid state and to create a layer for feedback because SS doesn't have the cloud or flux field to communicate to.
I noticed that SMs tpus come in 2 types open and closed. The open ones don't show a horizontal run with a vertical run wrapped around it or have I fallen off the turnip truck? The closed ones have layers(maybe) but definately have an outer winding.
Wattsup has pictures of multiple tpus with the center toroid thing. I am going to put my drain and gate line magamp in that position and then in the center of a horizontal loop. This gives 2 layers of feedback of which I can alter the connection directions to play with.

Builds we all have done.
Builds we would like to try.
Builds that produce some effect.
Specifications, common and uncommon.

This is alot of information to grasp and utilize over the length of time for this involvement.

giantkiller

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #304 on: May 24, 2010, 05:32:03 AM »
You have an iron horseshoe and a steel keeper on its end. A wire wrapped around a place in the iron. You tap a nine volt battery to the coil and the keeper stays forever. Have you ever seen anything read the activity that is keeping the keeper bound? If you have then there is OverUnity to a 'T'.

Back to current setup:
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 07:00:41 AM by giantkiller »

slapper

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #305 on: May 24, 2010, 06:56:15 AM »
Can't remember if GK posted this but someone on this forum did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO3dXCsyBC4
Good refresher material.

Take care.

nap

NickZ

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Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #306 on: May 24, 2010, 08:56:26 AM »
  To GK and all:  Greetings from Costa Rica
   Here is a picture I took of a diagram of the generator coil set up for the Magnetic Vortex Wormhole Generator  (attachment).
 I have not seen this design replicated by anyone. It seems like an interesting concept. It was taken from a patent application by John Quincy St.Clair. patent #US2003/0197093 A1  Oct. 2003.
  It shows two bucking torroid coils wound on a single wire. The smaller torroid coil is 1/3 the size of the bigger coil and wound in reverse  This is supposed to cause a vortex or magnetic wormhole, and alow energy to come into the generator from the aether. Thus imitating what naturally occurs in thunderstorms.
Reminds me a bit of the later double and triple torroid coils made by SM. They may have been wound in reverse also, like bucking gyros, to cause the most magnetic field disturbance or disequilibrium possible.
                                     NickZ

wattsup

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #307 on: May 24, 2010, 04:59:07 PM »
All I'm saying is; Solid state works fine as long as you understand what
it's limitations are and modify the circuit accordingly.  Like the internal
diode of a MOSFET.  Either bypass, or add an fast external reversed to
eliminate it entirely....  Where's the problem?   Here's a simple clue that
everyone knows, but NO-ONE wants to admit.  Why are the original 1
diode radio tuners always spec'd with a germanium diode?  If you can
answer that without falling into the "Lower voltage drop" excuse, then
you have it, in a nutshell.  The same circuit can work fine with a silicon
diode, but the circuit changes a little.  I actually had to play with this
for a month to truly understand the differences, and what I could ignore,
and I STILL can't explain it in normal EE ways.  To try, using the info
that I have learned around here, would make me sound like a crazy fool.

Bottles (Tubes) DO have certain advantages in this area of work, please
don't get me wrong, but if you understand why, then SS devices will
work quite well.  Give me a few more weeks and I promise I'll lay some
real data so you can verify what I am saying.  (I'm slow these days...)

@Loner

But as soon as you put a diode across the mosfet, you just changed the circuit completely because the mosfet cannot do the  real true cut off because the reverse potential will still be available from the bypass. If you pulse an inductor, on the off the reverse diode will still make the connection so the inductor cannot discharge. Hmmmmm.

Regarding the "bottle", I was wondering what @Mannix meant. Thanks for clarifying that.

@gyulasun

Thank you again for your information which is giving this major neophyte some direction. I will contact IXYS to see if I can buy from them directly some of their bigger JFETs. So the best ones should have the lowest ON resistance, which is logical since we want the pulse pass the JFET and do the work to the coils and not to the component. I would never have thought of that myself.

That PVI is really interesting. Seems to be a good analogy for tube function given the led transfers to the opto. And the way it simplifies circuit design is just tremendous. Can there be a use for this in a TPU. My only hold back is that there is still an internal diode that will kill flyback. Interesting that they are actually using a JFET to have the N/C function but have added a diode in there also. For me, a good strong JFET will be the best way for now.

Until I get more JFETs, the one I found locally and am using now is a low quality model NTE132 and I am putting the pdf below. Just from the pdf I had a hard time figuring out which was the gate.

In my previous post I said mosfets fuzz and pop better. I take that back. Twice these JFETs scared the crap out of me. Man what a pop. They just split completely open. Too high a voltage and amperage going through the D and S. The JFET I have is definitely not a match for the NPN and PNP I am using on the outer poles. Hmmmmmmmmm.

OK, one of my problems I think I am not understanding is the negative voltage required on the JFET gate. How do I get a negative voltage from my Frequency Generator? I tried connecting the negative lead to the JFET gate but it does not seem to do anything. Can't see anything on the scope either.

SM indicated that the DC output also had an AC hash. Could that AC hash have been a requirement to negative pulse a JFET? If this blotch wall eventually works, it will also produce an AC hash since the blotch wall will be moving back and forth along the same inner collector ring.

Or, is it possible that SM found a way of using the center toroid to separate an incoming DC pulse into a positive and negative pulse in order to run two types of gate requirements. As shown above by @GK, (can't believe he posted this while I was making this post last night but did not finish it until just this morning) being one step ahead of me. Ya Man.

@GK

Yes, lots of info to muddle with. Does not make it any easier. And yes, I have also been seeing pulses on my scope but even with my 60mhz capacity scope, I could be pulsing only at 50k and still not being able to see the waveform on the scope because it is to fast for my scope.

Anyways, I will go again today to my EE supply and try to find some more JFETs while I order the bigger ones. Maybe @Groundloop has managed some advancement on his end but let me tell you this blotch wall pulsing movement thingy will not be easy. You can't use a mosfet in the center because they require a polarity, but what polarity is available in a blotch wall? The only thing that really makes sense is a JFET, but they are getting rare and you will need the stronger ones otherwise you will be making JFET popcorn.


giantkiller

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #308 on: May 24, 2010, 05:50:37 PM »
@Nikz
I originally read that patent 3 years ago. But now after reading Lyne, Laviolette, and T.T. Brown the grasp is child's play. Thanks I needed to see it again.

@All,
The bucking now appears in 3 places, in a ferrite ring, in air or in a conductor.
The bucking field in air produces RE across space which immediately sinks to any metal in the area. The TPU copper collector is named after this. That is why 90degree coupling works.

My current magamp is wired in bucking mode meaning 2 winds in opposite wrapping directions over the ring, like mirrored. The patent items L & M are wired complimentary but driven oppositely. So this presents an opportunity to wind another one quickly for further comparisons. I can use iron wire to crank these out. The patent item J is wound complimentary or continuous with a cut half way.

Once again the abruption is caused in the circuit(like Groundloop's), the ring, or air. The ring and air represent the best places while the circuit needs special components because something in the substrate gets in the way. So in Air or ferrite gives the least resistance and puts us in the realm of effect generation according to Telsa's methods.

Another method of abruption is shown in Lee Crock's circuit (http://www.keelynet.com/mexistim/nexcrock.htm)
and patent 4874346.

Also a ring playtoy. This is awesome!
http://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/TangentTwoCirclesI.shtml

I stand on the shoulders of those greater than I and am very grateful to them.


gyulasun

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #309 on: May 24, 2010, 07:09:00 PM »
.....

@gyulasun

Thank you again for your information which is giving this major neophyte some direction. I will contact IXYS to see if I can buy from them directly some of their bigger JFETs. So the best ones should have the lowest ON resistance, which is logical since we want the pulse pass the JFET and do the work to the coils and not to the component. I would never have thought of that myself.

Hi wattsup,

I did not write IXYS manufactured JFETs, I wrote they make depletion mode MOSFETs (they conduct nicely with zero gate-source voltage).
Power JFETs are made, among some others, by Semisouth and I referred to this JFET type from them:
http://www.semisouth.com/products/uploads/DS_SJDP120R085_rev1.0.pdf


Quote

Until I get more JFETs, the one I found locally and am using now is a low quality model NTE132 and I am putting the pdf below. Just from the pdf I had a hard time figuring out which was the gate.

In my previous post I said mosfets fuzz and pop better. I take that back. Twice these JFETs scared the crap out of me. Man what a pop. They just split completely open. Too high a voltage and amperage going through the D and S. The JFET I have is definitely not a match for the NPN and PNP I am using on the outer poles. Hmmmmmmmmm.

I wrote to you they are small signal JFETs, designed for max 25-30mA drain current and 30-35V drain-source voltage, exceeding these limits lead to ruin them, so do not put them into a circuit where the peak current or voltage limits are exceeded.

Quote
OK, one of my problems I think I am not understanding is the negative voltage required on the JFET gate. How do I get a negative voltage from my Frequency Generator? I tried connecting the negative lead to the JFET gate but it does not seem to do anything. Can't see anything on the scope either.

The negative gate voltage for an N channel JFET is meant with respect to its source electrode. So if you think of a normal DC voltage like comes from a 9V dry battery, then the positive polarity of the battery is connected to the source of the JFET and the negative goes directly to the gate electrode: then the JFET immediatly switches off, no or very little current can flow via its drain-source path.
If you think of a pulse to control the JFET, you need a generator that gives a negative polarity pulse voltage with respect to its ground output. Seeing this on a scope, the scope probe crocodyle clip goes to the generator gnd output (BNC socket outer metal rim) and the probe pin goes to the generator 'hot' output (BNC socket middle center) and you have to see all the waveform BELOW the scope zero line on the display, in the negative direction.  IF you have an inverse output on your pulse generator, then normally it does not make a negative output from a positive one, unfortunately. Check it with a scope as I have described.
If you generator is not able to give a negative polarity output voltage, than you have to make a circuit with dual supply voltage (negative and positive) with respect to the common ground so that the output could go down to negative (below the zero voltage common ground). This is similar to certain operational amplifiers that need a pos and neg supply rail for working correctly and any voltage is referenced to the common point of the supply between the pos and neg. 

Quote
SM indicated that the DC output also had an AC hash. Could that AC hash have been a requirement to negative pulse a JFET? If this blotch wall eventually works, it will also produce an AC hash since the blotch wall will be moving back and forth along the same inner collector ring.

Or, is it possible that SM found a way of using the center toroid to separate an incoming DC pulse into a positive and negative pulse in order to run two types of gate requirements.


Because I have no idea how SM TPU works I cannot comment your above thoughts, sorry. All I did was trying to ease your switching problems you face with 'normal' MOSFETs.

rgds,  Gyula

wattsup

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #310 on: May 24, 2010, 08:21:52 PM »
@gyulasun

Phew......... you are very right I got the companies mixed up. I will contact SemiSouth to purchase some of the following;

SJDP120R085 - Normally ON (That's the one I need in the center)
SJEP120R063 - Normally OFF (Never saw this one, will try to use it as a bidirectional NPN and PNP replacement.)
Pdf's are included below.

Also thank you for explaining how to negative pulse. It is much more clearer now but I will still have some learning curve and probably blow a few more JFETs.

Could you also please read what I will mention to @GK because I think there could be another way to pulse the coils.

@GK

What if SMs pulsing is done with a thermistor. SM kept on saying even insistingly that the devices get somewhat hot. Always hot, hot, hot. Maybe he was trying to tell us something. Remember he checks the OTPU heat with his fingers before he lifts it up. So what if he is using that heat to his advantage by finding the perfect thermistor that can cool off very very quickly in series with a properly designed coil that brings the heat up inside the thermistor. It would cut off, cool off, then connect again and re-start the cycling. No mosfet, no transistor, no pulser, nothing but a thermistor. That would equate with his statement that there was no mass circuitry in his devices. He also insisted that TPU builders use an overload cut-off in case the device went to overdrive. Could a thermistor offer such protection at the same time as offering a pulsing medium.

giantkiller

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #311 on: May 24, 2010, 08:40:39 PM »
@wattsup,
He was driving them wrong. It is not amperage at all.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8227.msg242361#msg242361

gyulasun

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #312 on: May 25, 2010, 12:08:08 AM »
Hi wattsup,

Regarding thermistors I do not think they are even moderately fast devices, I cannot really imagine them for switching purposes in connection with LC circuits, rather they are mostly used for sensing heat. They have a so called thermic time constant measured in seconds and you would need a switching speed at least in the some hundred nanosecond range or even quicker I think. Thermistors reduce their resistance if the temperature they sense starts increasing, so when in series with a coil if they cool down their resistance would increase.

There are other passive devices like varistors that behave as an open circuit below a certain voltage amplitude and in case the voltage goes up suddenly beyond that amplitude then the device immediatly goes into a short circuit. (Almost like a Zener but the Zener tries to keep the voltage at the Zener voltage level, while the varistor loads down the voltage with a dead short when fires.) They are used mainly for transient voltage suppression to protect against overvoltage spikes and are made for wide voltage ranges, see this link chosen at random:
http://www.ventronicsinc.com/metal_oxide_varistors.htm  They are much much quicker than thermistors but they are not as quick as the above JFETs or 'normal' MOSFETs. If you wish to use varistors you have to think how it would serve best with its shorting property over a beyond voltage level. When the chosen voltage level does not exist any more between the two points the varistor is in parallel with, the varistor will become an open circuit again, ready to fire when voltage level gets increased again.
If you think this behavior is good for the TPU or for your purposes than consider using it, they are not expensive.

rgds,  Gyula

wattsup

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Re: Understanding electricity in the TPU.
« Reply #313 on: May 25, 2010, 02:16:48 AM »
@gyulasun

Thanks again for your information.

I looked up varistor and am putting an image below. It is rather incredible to see that these resemble a standard capacitor which can be plainly seen in the FTPU video, and, which I had pointed out on many occasions in the past as being located behind the center toroid. But now I realize they could easily have been one (or more) varistors. So this then becomes another avenue that must be tested.

sparks

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SMS overheat problem
« Reply #314 on: May 25, 2010, 02:27:17 AM »
  Tesla worked out a pyrloric generator.  The fire heated an iron core with tubes running through it.  At the ends of this core he wrapped some coils around it.  The core completed it's magnetic circuit through a horseshoe magnet.  The fire after passing over the core continued on to heat water in a boiler.  The steam from the boiler was intermittently caused to flow through the core of the generator.  This steam cooled the core and in so doing allowed the permanent magnet to cause the magnetic flux to establish in the interior of the output coils.  The changing magnetic field within the coils would cause the generator to put out upon dropping below the curie temperature of the core steel.  The steam was shut off and the thermal agitation of the core from the heat scource would destroy the magnetic flux of the core and the output coils would put out again.  Then the steam cooling more juice.  The fire heating more juice. Now say he takes the output of the generator and replaces the fire with resistive heating.  Remember only 1/2of the output is from the heating the other 1/2 is from the cooling.  So if 1/2 of the power is put into heating the core then whatever can be done to cool the core supplies the rest of the story.