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Author Topic: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?  (Read 11445 times)

Offline Goat

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Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« on: October 08, 2009, 11:46:52 PM »
Hi All :)

Here's a question asked by a 17 year old at:

http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/magnQ&A2.htm#q19

From a presentation of the Faraday Dynamo at:

http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/dynamos.htm

Here's a quote from the answer to the 17 year old I found rather interesting: 

    "In this formulation, what a changing magnetic field or flux creates is not a current but an electric field. If an electric conductor occupies the location, the electric field causes a current to flow, because an electric field in a conductor drives a current. But the basic relation is not between magnetic fields and electric currents, it is between magnetic and electric FIELDS.

    Still with me? It turns out that the components of magnetic and electric fields belong to a single symmetric pattern, and Faraday's law of induction is necessary to maintain that pattern. In relativity, they express different components of the same 4-dimensional tensor (that's one level up from a vector), and transforming fields from one moving frame to another, magnetic fields in one frame contribute part of the electric field in the other, and vice versa.

    Why that pattern and not another one? I don't know, maybe because it has a pretty symmetry. Ask the guy upstairs."


Quite a fascinating view of the inner workings of a dynamo and it's relationship with how electricity is formed by moving magnetic fields against a wire! 

I also found this quote interesting:

 "One could, for instance, link two Faraday dynamos, each supplying the current needed to produce the other's magnetic field.  They could (in principle) form a feasible self-excited dynamo, deriving its energy from whatever force was turning the disks."

  I think that the 4-dimensional tensor has applications in many OU projects whether moving magnets or coils or Faraday's Dynamo or electronics or a mix of both and/or all...Bedini comes to mind...LOL

This quote put a spin on it ;)

"a changing magnetic field or flux creates is not a current but an electric field. If an electric conductor occupies the location, the electric field causes a current to flow, because an electric field in a conductor drives a current"

Just something to think about, I think it could link to many OU projects I could be wrong but what the heck, maybe someone out there can link all this info into a working model  ;D

Kind Regards,
Paul


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Offline forest

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 11:55:48 PM »
Hi All :)

Here's a question asked by a 17 year old at:

http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/magnQ&A2.htm#q19

From a presentation of the Faraday Dynamo at:

http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/dynamos.htm

Here's a quote from the answer to the 17 year old I found rather interesting: 

    "In this formulation, what a changing magnetic field or flux creates is not a current but an electric field. If an electric conductor occupies the location, the electric field causes a current to flow, because an electric field in a conductor drives a current. But the basic relation is not between magnetic fields and electric currents, it is between magnetic and electric FIELDS.

    Still with me? It turns out that the components of magnetic and electric fields belong to a single symmetric pattern, and Faraday's law of induction is necessary to maintain that pattern. In relativity, they express different components of the same 4-dimensional tensor (that's one level up from a vector), and transforming fields from one moving frame to another, magnetic fields in one frame contribute part of the electric field in the other, and vice versa.

    Why that pattern and not another one? I don't know, maybe because it has a pretty symmetry. Ask the guy upstairs."


Quite a fascinating view of the inner workings of a dynamo and it's relationship with how electricity is formed by moving magnetic fields against a wire! 

I also found this quote interesting:

 "One could, for instance, link two Faraday dynamos, each supplying the current needed to produce the other's magnetic field.  They could (in principle) form a feasible self-excited dynamo, deriving its energy from whatever force was turning the disks."

  I think that the 4-dimensional tensor has applications in many OU projects whether moving magnets or coils or Faraday's Dynamo or electronics or a mix of both and/or all...Bedini comes to mind...LOL

This quote put a spin on it ;)

"a changing magnetic field or flux creates is not a current but an electric field. If an electric conductor occupies the location, the electric field causes a current to flow, because an electric field in a conductor drives a current"

Just something to think about, I think it could link to many OU projects I could be wrong but what the heck, maybe someone out there can link all this info into a working model  ;D

Kind Regards,
Paul


Tesla patented two Faraday dynamos working together.

Offline Goat

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 12:01:00 AM »
Interesting @ forest,,,which patent?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 12:01:00 AM »
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Offline Goat

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 12:21:36 AM »

Offline Goat

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 04:40:41 AM »
Hi All

Is there anyone on this forum that can see the quotes above and come up with a circuit to create the twin dynamo using Solid State circuits or 12 VDC motor with a commutator timed for the above scenario where one Dynamo generates and delivers the current needed to produce the others magnetic field and get it to the self-excited dynamo stage?

Long winded question...sorry  :-[

Regards,
Paul

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 04:40:41 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 09:22:32 AM »
Excellent post Goat, and it is the key to understanding the HPG!

When you have both the disc and external circuit (EC) rotate together, the emf or electric field on the disc is driving the electrons from the axis to the rim.  It is also driving the electrons in the EC to flow from the axis to the rim, where they cancel each other out.  In this case, the EC is part of the disc and there is only one emf force present in the system, so an electric field is present, but no voltage can be brought out of the system.

When there is relative motion between the disc and EC, there is an emf or electric field which drives the electrons from the axis to the rim on the disc, and another emf which is opposite in direction or polarity from the rim to the axis in the EC.  Let's say the disc is rotating clockwise and the EC is stationary.  From the disc's frame of reference, the disc is moving clockwise to the EC.  From the EC's frame of reference, the disc is moving counter clockwise.  It is the relative motion between the disc and EC which provides two opposite emf's or two different electric fields with opposite polarity to cause current to flow.  The electromotive force is the electric field, but it takes two electric fields with opposite polarities or direction to have a closed circuit before current can flow.

Changing the direction of rotation of the disc or EC will change the polarity of the system.  Reversing the magnetic field will change the polarity of the system.

When you have a disc on both sides of a magnet all rotating together on the same axle, one disc will be facing the magnet's north pole and the other disc will be facing the magnet's south pole.  Since each disc is looking at a different pole, this should change the polarity of the electric fields in the discs to be different.  This is only partially correct.  There is also a change in the direction of rotation between each disc and the magnet.  One disc will say it is rotating CW when looking at the magnet, and the other disc will say it is rotating CCW when looking at the magnet, so this changes the polarity of the system again.  Now the discs have the same polarity in electric fields.  This means if the current is flowing from the axis to the rim in one disc, then it will also be flowing from the axis to the rim in the other disc.

Place a magnet and disc on each end of the axle where the discs are facing outwards.  I'm attaching a sketch to illustrate this better.  Also the south poles on the magnets will be facing outwards.  There will need to be enough space between the magnets where there magnetic fields don't reach other.  In this setup the current should flow from the axis to the rim on one disc and then should flow from the rim to the axis on the other disc.

When we connect a wire from rim to rim on each disc, this will allow current to flow from the axis to the rim in Disc A, then will flow from the rim of Disc A to the rim of Disc B, then from the rim to the axis in Disc B.  Now we need a wire to connect the axis to the axis on each disc, so the current can then flow from the axis of Disc B to the axis of Disc A, and this will be our return path that is needed to close the circuit for current to flow.

The best case scenario for this method is to have the wire connecting the rims together to rotate with the discs and to have slip rings on the axis.  If this doesn't work, then we will need to have slip rings on the axis of each disc and to have stationary brushes connecting the rims together.  What we're doing is to have relative motion not between the disc and EC as in a conventional disc, but to have relative motion between the discs.  This will increase the voltage in the system.  It may be possible to stack and connect the discs in multiple layers to increase the voltage in the system with little to no additional energy input requirements.

I think this is one of many circuits which may lead to a self-excited dynamo that you refer to.  I believe it is possible to have a self-excited dynamo, but my suggested method may fall short.  Relativity and different frames of references is the engine behind the HPG, and is the key to unlocking the mystery.  It's all about relative motion in the system, and this is true in regular induction also!


Take care,

GB

« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 10:08:32 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 09:22:32 AM »
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Offline forest

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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2009, 10:52:43 AM »
When a rotor magnet moving CW approaches a stator coil, half of the coil's length will have a polarity that is opposite to the other half.  Why is that?

One end of the coil is facing towards the magnet while the other end of the coil is facing away from the magnet.  The end of the coil facing the magnet will say the magnetic field is coming from the right while the other end of the coil will say the magnetic field is coming from the left.  So, this allows two electric fields with different polarities in the system to be created in the middle of the coil.  The two electric fields are created due to the relative motion between the magnetic field and the ends of the coil.

When the rotor magnet begins to pass the stator coil, then the end of the coil facing the magnet will say the magnetic field is moving to the left while the other end will say the magnetic field is moving to the right.  This will flip the polarities of the two electric fields and the direction of the current, thus AC. 

The HPG produces a DC current because the relative motion is not changing in the system.  Whereas, in regular induction the relative motion is changing in the system between the ends of the coil as the magnet approaches and leaves.

Why does electromagnetic induction happen?  Short answer is relative motion in the system.  It's all about relative motion! 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2009, 10:52:43 AM »
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Offline Goat

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2009, 01:08:24 PM »
Thanks for the information forest & gravityblock :) a lot of good information to absorb!

Offline forest

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Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2009, 03:47:14 PM »
Goat

If you are interested in unipolar dynamo then search for Tesla notes about it. There was a time (1888-1890) when Tesla investigated unipolar dynamo and tried to make it self-sustaining.Did he resolved the problem ? I think he did. He however didn't managed experiments in that direction because of more interesting topic arisen about 1890 - high frequency currents and wireless power transmission (later).
It's possible though unipolar dynamo was just a first step for Tesla which ended in complete understanding of various methods to tap electro-magnetic energy of ambient background,more precisely - of Earth magnetic field.

gravityblock is right IMHO, even more - abrupt change on frame of reference seems to unlock the true energy level around us. Let's suppose that you have electronic circuit - does is work by absolute current, absolute voltage ? or maybe due to difference of potentials and currents between various parts of circuit ?
If the former then our hope is misleading us...
Can electronic transistor work switching  HV currents ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why does electromagnetic induction happen?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2009, 03:47:14 PM »
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