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Author Topic: I see an economic diasater coming...  (Read 1172982 times)

Offline triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2009, 05:25:43 AM »
Canned tuna from the store will last 20 years.Sugar as long as it stays dry will last 100 years.Honey never spoils.Learn the shelf lives of different foodstuffs and stock up on them.Also you can stock up on bars of soap and packs of smokes(shelf life about 6 months to a year,then they are dry).Bars of soap and packs of smokes are useful for barter.Just some useful info I thought I would toss in here.Cranberry sauce only lasts a year.Chlorine bleach 6 months.Triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2009, 05:25:43 AM »

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2009, 06:41:55 AM »
@triffid, with respect to your post #90:
Very good.  Couldn't have said it better myself.  Just don't buy large quantities suddenly and then let anyone see you hide it.  If you do let them, they could come looking for it later.

--Lee

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2009, 07:20:22 AM »
.
Canned tuna from the store will last 20 years.Sugar as long as it stays dry will last 100 years.

Thanks Triffid, real good info.

For me, the best of all possible worlds would be to relocate to an area where there was water available even if utilities went down, a reasonable growing season, wood for heating, game you could hunt, fish you could catch, sun and/or hydro-power you could harness and neighbors you could count on as they count on you (but not too many, not too close).

Sounds pretty idyllic huh? There's still a lot of country out there just like that.

The keyword, at least for me, is 'sustainable', which means you can 'keep it going' once you set things in motion, so I have to commit to being 'in position' in time to deal with coming events, which fortunately, I can do since I don't have to live where I work or depend on a job for income because I have a decent retirement.

But the object here is to get to the point where 'income' is superfluous, because real value lies not in what you have, but in what you know and what you can do with your knowledge (you have to possess the background and skills -the 'chops'- it's going to take to pull it off, books alone won't save you).

Money's not going to buy much in the not too distant future anyway, so spend it while it's still able to get you things that will matter in the long run.

Having your stash together is important (we learned to do that out here a long time ago with fires, floods and earthquakes) but getting to a place where you can produce the things you need for your stash is the 'brass ring'.
.

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2009, 07:20:22 AM »
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Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2009, 10:37:36 AM »
been puttin things together for sustainable living for a few years now. Pulsefuelnerd is on the land now breaking in some of the equipment and techniques.

A good library on farming would be good. But then again you need to understand that ALL the food you eat is GMO and can't be replanted from the seeds of the food. Heirloom seeds have a few definitions, seeds that strain is older than 50 years, some say 100 years, but the main point is this you can harvest the seeds and replant them.



So I think we can assume that everyone posting are in agreement, that the economic situation will continue to degrade.

specifically how, or yes is of minor contrivances.

Does anyone think the the economy will get better, and our debts less?

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2009, 05:54:07 PM »
.
But then again you need to understand that ALL the food you eat is GMO...Heirloom seeds...you can harvest the seeds and replant them.


All good points, and, yes, everything these days is GM in one way or another. An Heirloom stash is a must and staying in touch with other heirloom growers who you can trade seed with is a good idea too.

A lot of vegetables become 'localized' to their environment over time (they actually adapt to suit conditions, which may include making it easier for pests) so trading seeds helps to promote diversity and maintain healthier harvests.

Because all plants do this, the term 'heirloom' pretty much just means the seeds are viable and will reproduce, it doesn't necessarily mean you're eating the same tomato that was grown in 1867 (even though it may have come from that stock, originally).

If you grow in an area that has commercial farming nearby, take stock of what's being produced on the commercial farms, you don't want to cross-pollinate with any Monsanto(tm) GM produce, so grow something else instead and trade with others (farmer's market) who live in other locations for the produce you don't grow yourself.

Self-sufficiency and sustainable living takes a lot of work, a lot of know-how and goes a lot better if you 'network' with others like yourself (both near and far) to share your experience, knowledge, ideas, help, seeds and trials.

Tony
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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2009, 05:54:07 PM »
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Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2009, 05:54:28 PM »
author=d3adp00l said:
Quote

Does anyone think the the economy will get better, and our debts less?
I took the liberty of creating a poll to reflect the thought above.  Then I voted against the economy improving.  History is replete with examples if boom-and-bust cycles of human, cultural and business activity.

NOTE:
The polls and title bars of posts cannot be spell-checked.  I *should* proof read them more diligently.

--Lee

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2009, 06:18:50 PM »
Does anyone think the the economy will get better, and our debts less?

Well, *THE* economy will do some smoke-and-mirrors jumps and dives, fits and starts and eventually go down for the count.

While our 'personal' economies could be stable, not reliant on global economics and not dependent on FOREX dollar/euro values...If we put ourselves (individually) in a sustainable position.

So some economies will be OK and others won't do so well.

Tony
.

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2009, 06:18:50 PM »
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Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2009, 06:29:36 PM »
ATT said:
Quote
Well, *THE* economy will do some smoke-and-mirrors jumps and dives, fits and starts and eventually go down for the count.
I had thought of adding the poll option:  "No, it'll decline slowly as it's been doing" but I didn't know ahead of time someone might think of it.

Oh, well, too late to change it now, I think.

--Lee
 

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2009, 06:45:30 PM »
I had thought of adding the poll option:  "No, it'll decline slowly...

I think you got it right, Lee. I said 'fits and starts', I didn't necessarily mean that to be slow.
(but I currently think we're looking at 3-5 yrs, subject to revision...)

Tony

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2009, 06:45:30 PM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2009, 09:05:24 PM »
Hi Gents,

I think you're correct on quite a few points. Being outside of larger metropolitan areas is ALWAYS a good thing in my opinion, mostly since most of the modern day conveniences now seen as necessities are still not available out in the country and so the people act accordingly.

They plan when they shop because the convenient store is just as many miles away as the regular one.

They know how to fix most (if not all) machinery they rely on as a service call  run into some serious money. They also try to fix older machinery as it was built without the aim of planned obsolescence.

Recycling happens @ home, and is not "destroy and remake", but reuse (and not always in the way of the products original use).

You know your neighbors!

On the point d3 makes about heirloom vs. GMO I'd like to throw out the suggestion that, if possible, try to frequent farmers markets in your area. These farmers (but NOT all of them) are interested in growing sustainable crops where the product that doesn't sell this year can be used for seeds next year.
Make sure to talk to them and find out farming practices as some things at a farmers market are the same things you get in stores, but with a marked up price.
(BTW, Monsanto is one of the very few businesses I would like to see completely eradicated from the face of the earth!)

They know the "tricks" for raising hormone and antibiotic free livestock, and livestock will be VERY important for food (meat, CHEESE, milk, eggs), clothing (wool, leather, feather down), and working stock (horses/oxen). Veterinary knowledge and animal husbandry will be important as well.

Here's a strange one........mushrooms.
Ones like portebellas, shitakes, maitakes, oyster, puffballs, etc. are pretty easy to raise, need little area and care to grow, and have very high protein content

EDIT:
As much as it might be against the law were you are, HEMP will be an important product to raise. The pressed seed stock is what "gruel" was made from when the oil was pressed out of it and very nutrient/protein rich. It also makes good clothes and paper (in fact, worn out clothes were used for making paper back in the day).

EDIT 2: Re: triffids post. They do now sell large bags of tobacco for RYO (roll your own) that may store/freeze better than cigarette packs and tobacco seed might be a good crop to grow a small patch of for barter.

EDIT 3: Some good products to stockpile might be cocoa and coffee. tins of cocoa and cans of coffee should last quite a few years. A great re-use for 5 gallon plastic buckets is storing large quantities of dry goods. It works especially well if the buckets are filled with a heavy non-reactive gas like CO2 or nitrogen, filled with the dry good, and then sealed. When storing anything, oxygen and water are your biggest concerns.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 09:59:25 PM by exxcomm0n »

Offline triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2009, 01:52:36 PM »
I recall reading an article about some guy down under in au who used bicycle parts to run his  house.They called him"Peter Petals".He could grind his grain with foot power.He even had a wind powered generator built from bike wheels to generate some power.He had taken one idea and had really run amuck with it.Then about 2 years ago I saw a tv show on a family in calif that $4.00 gas was not hurting.They had paid off their house and raised all  or most of their food on a typical city house lot.They planted nearly every square inch of that property with something they could eat(even the flowers could be eaten).I remember they had 2 or 3 chickens too.Triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2009, 01:52:36 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2009, 02:09:54 PM »
One thing I did was plant some food plants that look like weeds to the untrained eye on property that didn't belong to me.That was about 17 years ago.They produce a small tuber that I can eat.They grow on their own and to my knowlege they are still there growing for me. White French Articokes is what they are and they look like sunflowers.Triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2009, 02:26:22 PM »
I do believe that our money will worsten to a point where the government will cancel our money.Like post war germany did in June sunday 1948.Millions of germans knew their money was inflated,but few realized that they were to be canceled so suddenly altogether.Marks that would buy a house on saturday would not be sufficient in value to buy a winter coat on Sunday.Yes there were a staggering number of german suicides that JuneSunday in 1948.This is what I believe will happen here in about 20 years.All the cash you can save will be canceled and deemed worthless by the USA.Triffid

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #103 on: September 27, 2009, 05:35:49 PM »
.
Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it, Triffid.

The urban-guerrilla gardening methods you describe are still popular, sometimes whole communities engage in planting edibles all over the city on public and private land, rarely do they run into opposition since, in most cases, they are improving the landscape at no cost to the owner.

The main problem with maintaining sustainability for that family you mentioned that planted 'every square foot' of their yard is that they have no room to 'rotate' their crops, so inevitably they will be plagued with blight and/or other pestilence which will diminish their yield in short order...you really need some land for practical growing of any duration.

Keep in mind that, depending on the severity of the downturn, water may become an issue in the city. Here in Southern California, we import most of our water from Northern California and the Colorado river. As the demand increases from  greater L.A. and suburbs (read: most of southern California) and as snow-pack decreases, the ability to recharge aquifers and maintain reservoirs diminishes.

Drought increases the amount of water that has to be provided to urban areas in the south from northern California and the Colorado which, in turn, lessens the water available for irrigation to agriculture that dominates northern and central California and the Coachella valley and Imperial counties to the south.

This results in less farmed land, decreased produce avilability and higher prices.

Now imagine the scenario in the city if the pumps, gates and aquaducts started shutting down or there wasn't enough tax-base to maintain the infrastructure and the cities/state couldn't afford the manpower to keep things going and layed everybody off.

Think: rationing, national guard, military control, martial law, FEMA, ETC..

I'm actually not an 'alarmist', by any means, but I've experienced this sort of thing before and all it took was a 7.5 'quake to shut down water, electricity and phones (including cells), station armed guards at every grocery store to enforce rationing and bring out the marines from 29 Palms MCB to help maintain order ('92 Landers Quake).

Granted, that was a short-lived 'emergency' situation in a low-population area but think of what a more protracted (perhaps 'permanent') emergency in a high-density urban environment would entail.

In a severe downturn, urban areas are not where you want to be, there's too much dependence on infrastructure, too high a population density, competition for resources is elevated and centralized populations are among the first 'targets' for any 'stabilization' agendas.
.



Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2009, 06:53:59 PM »
ATT said:
Quote
A lot of vegetables become 'localized' to their environment over time (they actually adapt to suit conditions, which may include making it easier for pests) so trading seeds helps to promote diversity and maintain healthier harvests.
I see a potential problem:
Bees have been disappearing from their hives.  If they continue doing that, those crops that depend on them will eventually die out.

Corn doesn't need that, to my knowledge, but it's something to be aware of.

--Lee

 

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