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Author Topic: I see an economic diasater coming...  (Read 1258849 times)

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #150 on: October 05, 2009, 06:21:01 AM »
appreciate the confidence Ex.

Ok back on topic.

An FYI does anyone know or understand who is involved with the g20, and g8?

In the g20 there are only 19 countries,
in the g8 there are 9 members.

guess who is the odd man out, its the central bank of Europe.

So let me get this straight, the countries sit down and have a meeting with the bank, it sounds like debt negotiation to me, with the bank giving orders.

The new unemployment numbers are up again, the real unemployment it close to 25-27%, what do you think this down spin in jobs will do?

The home foreclosure rate is up, and the sales supposedly came up a bit. Well sure thats what it looks like. As home foreclose they get sold at auction, which is still a sale.

The central valley in california, 1 million arces, is getting its water shut off.

Seriously how can you expect a recovery when the most basic forms of the economy is destroyed.

Lets establish a few things. ALL economy is based ultimately on agriculture. Second to that is construction, after that is manufacturing. Energy is a modifier to those industries.

A simple critical path method of econ analysis is all that is needed. Wallstreet can not fix this, government spending can not fix this. Increasing our true worth is the only way.

So as people limit their expenses, and the gov. and big biz. continue to siphon off their share, which reduces the amount of money flowing back into the economy.

This whole system is just a ponzy scheme, with the gov.s and big biz being the ones telling us that if we just play our part we could be like them, we could have the wealth they have.

Well here is the problem with that, money is a commodity according to this system right? So in order for it to have value there has to be a demand with a limited supply.

So if we could actually acquire some wealth, their wealth would be worth less, because we as a whole would desire their money less, because we have our own.

This is a classic scam, a Tom sawyer if you will. Make everyone desire what it is that you have, and keep them in wanting.

How to keep them in wanting, well make sure that most (90%) can never get there, put enough taxes, profit margins, indirect taxes, credit charges, interest rates, etc. So that if you don't start out with enough money to be on the inside, the likelyhood of you getting in the inside is slim.

Its just like the lotto system, "you can only win if you play" but if you play in this system you can only hope to break even. Every once in a while they have to let someone win, otherwise no one would play.

This system has to fail, its designed to do it. Any system that has interest on it will always fail. Its percentage of waste grows exponentially.


Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #151 on: October 05, 2009, 06:47:29 AM »
d3adp00l said:
Quote
This system has to fail, its designed to do it. Any system that has interest on it will always fail. Its percentage of waste grows exponentially.
Yes, exactly.  Several original religious founders around the world had said the same thing.  Greed is its own punishment, as it were.

I read an Internet presentation in .PDF once(might be gone now) that indicated on the "Conclusions" page, last paragraph...
In effect, hunter/gatherer cultures had existed for 1,000,000 years until the last 8,000 years or so.  If there was a drought, earthquake, tidal wave, etc, the tribe could survive with some difficulty.
But when civilization was invented, the greedy religious/military/business class took control.  Famine and competition for food became a chronic feature in many societies.
People could often cope until then.  But not since then.
Another collapse is coming for the same reason the others happened.  "Business as usual."

--Lee

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #152 on: October 05, 2009, 07:26:57 AM »
Damn, there goes d3 making sense again.

I think everyone is comfortable with the idea that most gov't economic systems are ponzi schemes that have run out of new investors to fleece.
It was a lot easier when there were plenty of raw materials to steal and exploit but population density has kind of killed that possibility.

So major questions are:
How long do you think it will be before the lack of economic growth is so prevalent that it will be hard to deny no matter what the news says causing a collapse or the announcement of military action on domestic soil to "keep the peace"?

How prepared are you?
If it happened tomorrow would you be ready?

What will be the major indicators that you will use to know that a very bad situation is SOON?

How long will you wait before you know it's time to either get out or batten down the hatches?

Can you feed you and yours until next harvest season?

Can you provide a fully balanced diet during that time?

How will you provide for your energy needs if the grid or gas station is unavailable?

How will you communicate? What will be your sources of news?

Can you organize, or be a part of a well rounded self sufficient community or will it all be DIY?

I really don't expect answers to each of these points from members of the forum, but I wanted to throw them out there to give you (and myself) some parameters of what will be necessary should the worst case scenario be realized.

Since it was recommended to me that I start a new thread, I believe I will, but I will choose a different subject than what was recommended.
It'll be questions like these that anyone else can use as a preparedness checklist to see how ready for self sufficiency they really are.

Again, I don't do this to scare anyone, but by the time most people think it's time to head for the hills, it's already too late.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 08:25:28 AM by exxcomm0n »

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #153 on: October 05, 2009, 08:52:25 AM »
how prepared?
fair

tomorrow?
not as much as I would like to be, But I could make what I have work.

Bad situation?
As far as I am concerned, I don't like what I see already. And frankly I don't like knowing what I know about how it all works. So either way I want a change. But indicators, martial law declared anywhere in the US, any local catastrophies, certain laws being enforced, anyone coming and violating my rights in my home, or anyone I know.

How long?
after I see one of the above, its time to move and move fast. I figure 24hrs to a week at most. Batten down the hatches? not where I live.

Can I feed?
yes I believe I can

diet?
same as above

Power?
solar for now, a small grid, working on more, and biogas plant. As far as vehicle fuel, thats a situation no joy right now. Unless you count horses.
Working on establishing bio type fuels, and switching over vehicles to run it, veg oil and diesels.

Comm?
Local comm with short range radios, have the standard multiband windup radios for listening. Long range comm, looking into HAM, but I am not real familiar with it yet, and its not biggest on the list, finishing power is.

Community?
have a few that would go with, some are certain, some are maybes, most are see ya if the dust settles.

One question not asked, water?

I figure it this way, this system is built on everyone subscribing to it, if we stop doing that it gets weaker, and by negative relief, us stronger. So I am choosing to participate as little as is possible. I will vote with my dollar, or the lack of it. Am I choosing to be poor? I don't believe so. I am choosing to be in control of the transactions I participate in.

I am choosing not to make money from nothing. In my opinion people who want to do that are part of the problem.



Offline MasterPlaster

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #154 on: October 05, 2009, 10:52:16 AM »
OK guys. I know the economic collapsapse is near. I am in agreement with you but with causion. You are thinking of saving yourselves. It is an instively generated action. I think mankind has come to the point that must (by force if have to) realize that we are part of a same collective.

I don't know what is exactly facing us tomorrow but what ever it is, together we can over-come it for sure.

I know this is too idealistic but this will be the future.
The concept of every man for himself has brought us where we are today.




Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #155 on: October 05, 2009, 11:24:22 AM »
While it is a great and noble thing to be charitable to your fellow man, charity starts at home.

If I blew off getting a big screen because I thought a 5000W generator would be a better purchase, friends laugh at me on Superbowl Sunday.
But if a hurricane, flood, fire, or tornado knocks out power in my area for a week, guess who's comes around asking if they can borrow it?

I'm all for helping my fellow man, and will do so any chance I get, but I have a hard time justifying it when I spent my time and money preparing for a situation, and they spent their time catering to their creature comforts as if the future would always be sunny and bright.
I will definitely not do so if it threatens the well being of my family or myself. Everyone makes choices that effect their life and as much as I try to give good advice, I can't justify giving away what I've worked hard for just because others thought my advice silly and did not heed it  until it was too late.


Offline MasterPlaster

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #156 on: October 05, 2009, 04:10:07 PM »
No, I am not talking about charity. I think charity is wrong.
I am talking about a paradim shift where every one see's their fullfiment
through enabling others to get what they want.

I think a lot of the problems we individually have is because of the personal
insecurities we have. In the societyf where every one feels secure they will not become greedy, hoarders etc. They would become what their true nature drives them to be. ( hopefully positive!)

I am not talking about a society where the state would do these things but each person himself would feel he has to be a selfless giver.

By the way I do believe that it is a doctine of the NWO social engineers to even destroy the family unit so, I think what I am talking about is premature and will not transpire until we come out of the other side of NWO tyranical black-hole.
 

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #157 on: October 05, 2009, 05:42:21 PM »
Quote from: MasterPlaster
No, I am not talking about charity. I think charity is wrong.
Charity has it's place, however, if you 'teach a man to fish' and he doesn't and then you continue to 'give a man a fish', you perpetuate dependence.

Quote
I am talking about a paradim shift where every one see's their fulfillment through enabling others to get what they want...not become greedy...They would become what their true nature drives them to be
The reality-check here is that although our success as a species is, to a large degree, the result of our ability to cooperate as a group beyond family or tribe, there are personality characteristics that persist in many that include the agressive, the ruthless and the sociopathic.

The assumption of altruism for all individuals as the basis for societal stability isn't workable, that's why we have laws.

Quote
I think a lot of the problems we individually have is because of the personal insecurities we have.
That can certainly be the case. Another attribute of insecurity is denial, which results in doing nothing while waiting for the world to 'get better'.

Quote
By the way I do believe that it is a doctine of the NWO social engineers to even destroy the family

Replacing primary allegiance to the family with primary allegiance to the 'State' is an ancient ploy, I have no doubt that it's among the items in any agendas' 'bag of tricks'.

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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...and now I'll give specific reasons why I think that is...
« Reply #158 on: October 08, 2009, 05:49:33 PM »
1) The biggest is, in my opinion:  investors an brokers are---still!---buying, selling and trading "credit default swaps" on Wall St.
These financial instruments are what the economic meltdown is largely about and are *said* to be worth a quadrillion dollars($1,000,000,000,000).  Even if they could be paid off, the interest and principal would amount to 5-10 times that much and take generations to pay off.

2) The war in AfPak(Afghanistan & Pakistan) costs trillions and cannot be won militarily.  The money is still *going down the drain* and the rate of expenditure cannot be maintained.

3) This is bad:  Here in California and elsewhere, Adjustable Rate Mortgages and other subprime loans are about to reset at a higher higher rate in a few months for millions of people nationwide.  Up to 8,000,000 households could be affected.
They might apply to overworked social services, move in with financially strapped relatives, or live on the streets.  There isn't much else they can do.

4) Continued unemployment is a serious concern.  Those who stop looking for work amount to twice the *official* rate.  In California it's about 25% total, and in the Northern states, it's probably higher than that.

5) The federal deficit is large enough that money is being printed to pay the people and institutions who need the economic stimulus.  The bailout of the banks only allowed the Gov't to buy up bank assets and assume control of the banks.  They own large chunks of the American economy and may assume(?) landlordship of many assets in this country.
Do go and see Capitalism: A Love Story by Michael Moore in theaters now.  It's 2 1/2 hrs long, but it got an applause from the audience at the end when I saw it.

6) The conspiracy theorists maintain there's a takeover coming when the Gov't tries to force Americans to take the flu/Swine Flu shot and then incarcerate those who refuse to comply in concentration camps for their own safety(epidemic/pandemic in progress).  They need to disarm everyone to begin that and gun owners are going to sit still for that.  The economic/political/social ramifications are huge.

To sum up:
At the beginning of Michael Moore's movie, he draws parallels between the ancient Roman Empire, which collapsed in the Fifth Century, and present-day America.  His analysis of the similarities are striking and I agree with them.  Nothing last forever, and, of course, the increasingly popular 2012 scenario(s) are becoming more prominent in some people's minds.

Something has to give.  Business as usual doesn't work any more.



Offline lwh

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #159 on: October 23, 2009, 09:32:11 PM »
While I'm not really into the survivalistic shtuff (which is what this thread was sort of about last time I looked), I thought some of you here might find these things interesting, http://www.lifesaversystems.com/index.html as maintaining access to a drinkable water supply could be very problematic if what some of you are anticipating actually comes to pass.  Hell, I'm tempted to get one anyway, could come in handy in any case.

Just to update this, I sent an e-mail to both the Australian (where I'm at) and the U.S contact addresses on the 5th and 19th of October asking about prices and delivery and still haven't heard back from either.  These things sure aren't taking off like they could, or probably should, and the few (three in the whole world?) sellers aren't helping by not responding to e-mails.  There are phone numbers I can try but I don't want to be given the same treatment over the phone.  Makes me wonder. 

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2009, 09:50:19 PM »
lwh said:
Quote
... the few (three in the whole world?) sellers aren't helping by not responding to e-mails.  There are phone numbers I can try but I don't want to be given the same treatment over the phone.  Makes me wonder.
@lwh
Can you get to the street address for their office in Australia?  If they're closed, you have your answer.

--Lee

Offline lwh

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2009, 06:47:39 PM »

Can you get to the street address for their office in Australia?  If they're closed, you have your answer.

--Lee

Funnily enough, in all of the places they could have been in the whole country, they're just about 10-15 kilometers from where I am.  Looked them up with Google earth and it looks like they must be in a strip of businesses fronting a light industrial area.  I can't get there easily though so I'll probably try giving them a call.  However, buying unusual imported things here often involves ridiculous price mark-ups, sometimes to the point where it's cheaper to just get it sent over from somewhere else.  That's why I was interested in hearing from the U.S seller too. 

I was also fishing to see if anyone here has actually bought one of these things from anywhere, as I must admit I've been starting to wonder if there might be some kind of suppression or obstructing of this technology going on. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 02:17:44 AM by lwh »

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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A couple of more reasons for the collapse...
« Reply #162 on: October 25, 2009, 03:59:01 AM »
Quote from: lwh said:
[quote
Funnily enough, in all of the places they could have been in the whole country, they're just about 10-15 kilometers from where I am.  Looked them up with Google earth and it looks like they must be in a strip of businesses fronting a light industrial area. 
Right.  Lots of businesses like that in the States.  Then there's the malls.   ::)
Quote
I can't get there easily though so I'll probably try giving them a call.  However, buying unusual imported things here often involves ridiculous price mark-ups, sometimes to the point where it's cheaper to just get it sent over from somewhere else.  That's why I was interested in hearing from the U.S seller too.
Well, Australia is quite a ways from the U.S. and Europe.  Asia is nearby,though.
Quote
I was also fishing to see if anyone here has actually bought one of these things from anywhere, as I must admit I've been starting to wonder if there might be some kind of suppression or obstructing of this technology going on.
There are patents in large numbers for water purifiers and oceanic water desalinators.  That might be some of the problem.  "Proprietary information", you know.  That way they can corner the market, so to speak.

But, back on the topic:

The current commercial property and office building market bubble is about to pop.  Loans were issued for top prices and these prices are severely depressed now.   Retail revenue is insufficient to keep up payments and loans are about to reset to higher payments in 6-12 months.

That's not all:
Thousands of home loans here in Northern California are also about to reset to higher rates.  This is very serious.  The "recovery" could end.

Lastly,
British analysts predict the English housing prices could fall 20-40% further unless something is done to reverse the trend with refinancing or other means.
Also dire for the Europeans:  Milk prices are terribly low for the Western Europeans.  A large segment of the European economy is "hanging on a cliff."

--Lee

Offline triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #163 on: October 26, 2009, 03:48:39 AM »
You guys should check out this website www.grandpappy.info/  .There is a lot of info on how to survive the hard times coming including shelf lives of canned foods,dry foods,and drugs.Most canned goods will last 46 years.90% of the drugs the US miltary tested were safe and effective 15 years later.Nitroglycerin,insulin, & fishoil pills not safe after expiration dates.Salt,baking soda,&sugar can last forever if stored properly.Bottled water is good for 18 months.30 years for dry goods such as white rice,wheat,pinto beans,macaroni,rolled oats and potato flakes.Keep in proper sealed containers away from insects,heat and light.20 years for powdered milk.Sounds like to me this website should be checked out for all the other info I have not mentioned.Triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #164 on: October 26, 2009, 03:52:07 AM »
2010 and 2012 both look like real hard times coming to me.triffid