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Author Topic: I see an economic diasater coming...  (Read 1172975 times)

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2009, 07:15:30 PM »
Bees have been disappearing from their hives.  If they continue doing that, those crops that depend on them will eventually die out.

Lee, bees are the premier pollinator, it's true, but they aren't the sole pollinator by any stretch.
http://www.pollinator.org/pollinationequation.htm

Regardless, the Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) continues to pose a significant threat to agriculture.
http://inspiredeconomist.com/2009/05/31/the-mysterious-disappearing-honey-bee/

The numbers for CCD are a little better this year, but not by much.

EDIT: Just to add: When I was 'living off the land' about 38 years ago, I had two hives and supers (which I didn't 'work') that were just for pollination.

You can provide the same 'pollination insurance' today with a strain of bees that is smaller than the familiar honey bee and is less likely to experience CCD to the same degree:
http://www.groworganic.com/item_PBE2000_Orchard_Mason_Bees_Unit_Of_20.html
http://www.groworganic.com/item_PBE2005_Canned_Bees_Kit.html

Tony
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 07:48:05 PM by ATT »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2009, 07:15:30 PM »

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2009, 09:18:02 PM »
@ATT
With respect to your Post #105:
You're correct.  Flies, butterflies, beetles and hummingbirds are just 4 types of animals that pollinate plants.

But, it may be that some species of butterflies and hummingbirds are suffering from habitat destruction by human encroachment?  If so, even without economic collapse, the overall ecological future doesn't look good.

--Lee

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2009, 11:56:30 PM »
But, it may be that some species of butterflies and hummingbirds are suffering from habitat destruction by human encroachment?  If so, even without economic collapse, the overall ecological future doesn't look good.

Excellent point, Monarchs (which are the largest migratory species of butterfly in the northern hemisphere), appear to be in decline (or at least experiencing a change in migration habits), although hummingbirds seem to be holding their own, at least in rural areas like mine.

Which begs the question: Is economic collapse symptomatic of societal self-correction?

When presented with evidence of threat to the underlying foundation of food-chain based existence does that threat subliminally trigger a chain of events that will lead to the eventual reversal of the conditions that threaten?

Do conditions become intolerable to the point that it spurs an undoing of the causal factors and an eventual reversal of mindset?

Time will tell.

Tony
.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2009, 11:56:30 PM »
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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #108 on: September 28, 2009, 12:57:13 AM »
Bumble bees have the highest immune system of the Bee family, I have not seen a decline in Bumble Bees on the coast or in the mountains nor in the farm land areas.

I live in the High Sierras, there are many types of bees here, other than Honey or Bumble and I really don't see a decline in the bee population nor in the fruiting of tree's or bushes unless winter is setting in of course.

we also have a very high population of humming birds, Humming birds don't pollinate much because they tend to cheat the flower when licking nectar, their tongue is used not so much their beak thus bypassing the pollen introduction to another plant.

Man kind will have to hybrid food plants to be single sexed so the plant pollenates itself. it would neither be male or female but both. Genetics can already do this so if bee's were to die off completely there would be a means of saving plants for food purposes.

mankind is the most adaptable species on this planet, even more so than the Cockroach! now if a Cockroach had the mind of a man, it would be dangerous! lol.

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2009, 01:22:13 AM »
ATT said:
Quote
Which begs the question: Is economic collapse symptomatic of societal self-correction? ... Do conditions become intolerable to the point that it spurs an undoing of the causal factors and an eventual reversal of mindset? ... Time will tell.
Yes, indeed.  Up to this point, I've never seen it happen in recorded history.

And, don't forget the fish.  Sea life is declining in many areas.  Some oceanic countries depend on fish.  I'm Scandinavian, and I know the sea was always important to my ancestors.
Then there's the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Spanish, Portuguese, South American, Carribean and Mediterranean countries.

--Lee

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2009, 01:22:13 AM »
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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2009, 04:37:22 AM »
ATT said:Yes, indeed.  Up to this point, I've never seen it happen in recorded history.

And, don't forget the fish.  Sea life is declining in many areas.  Some oceanic countries depend on fish.  I'm Scandinavian, and I know the sea was always important to my ancestors.
Then there's the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Spanish, Portuguese, South American, Carribean and Mediterranean countries.

--Lee

Do you have the natural decline numbers for these species in those areas of concern? it does make a difference. there is also natural selection numbers that are set apart from artificial decline(intervened by man). remember, suzy the T-Rex Dino that had cancer of the femor before mankind ever existed.

are we basing this on mankinds arrival?

some claim that man caused all these diseases. which isn't true. don't believe in the six thousand year mankind evolution either. it is not true.

Jerry ;)

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2009, 04:57:23 AM »
Pessimist usually turn into terrorists. according to fanaticism, because they don't agree with the standard mid way of life. life in the middle. who chooses to be medium. life in the middle is better than life fully in the wrong.

will the God head ever learn how to reap those who are in the midst. i know you are in the future, you still don't comply.

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2009, 04:57:23 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #112 on: September 28, 2009, 05:16:31 AM »
.
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok
And, don't forget the fish.  Sea life is declining in many areas.

We can also look at plankton die-off, 'dead water' with not enough oxygen content to support life and industrial waste, mercury, ect.

I think it's reasonable to assume that as conditions continue to decline the effects will continue to propagate throughout the food-chain, events would seem to bear this out.

Like I said: individually, we can't 'save the world', but we can strive to put ourselves and our families in the best position we can manage in order to optimize our chances.
.

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #113 on: September 29, 2009, 04:43:29 AM »
Quote
Pessimist usually turn into terrorists. according to fanaticism, because they don't agree with the standard mid way of life. life in the middle. who chooses to be medium. life in the middle is better than life fully in the wrong.

will the God head ever learn how to reap those who are in the midst. i know you are in the future, you still don't comply.

Jerry, you know what? Those are the most philosophical statements I've seen on this thread...I think.

What triggered that issuance?

Do you think any of us are being too pessimistic in our evaluation?

What most of us try to avoid here is outright 'alarmism', but at the same time we don't want to be lulled into the false comfort of absolute 'denial', so I guess one could say we're somewhere in the 'middle', depending on your point of reference.

There is nothing particularly pessimistic about stating current conditions, we didn't pull any of this stuff from PrisonPlanet or the like, it's all mainstream data, whether economic or environmental, the conclusions the data lead to are individually arrived at and subject to re-evaluation as new data comes into view.

Also, keep in mind these are opinions and opinions are always subject to change as new information becomes available, I haven't run into anybody on here that's a hard-core 'survive or die' evangelist.

I do, however, welcome your opinion, but you're going to have to come down a click from the metaphysical so a simple guy like me can understand what you're getting at.

(Those -are- pretty deep thoughts, though!)

Tony

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #113 on: September 29, 2009, 04:43:29 AM »
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Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #114 on: September 29, 2009, 05:46:22 AM »
ATT said:
Quote
We can also look at plankton die-off, 'dead water' with not enough oxygen content to support life and industrial waste, mercury, ect.
Absolutely.  Farm and lawn fertilizers add nitrogen---and especially---phosphorus to the ocean and cause plankton blooms to kill fish.  I've seen this myself.

Quote
Like I said: individually, we can't 'save the world', but we can strive to put ourselves and our families in the best position we can manage in order to optimize our chances.
Yep, right.  It's about all the average person has the power to do.  Taking on big business and city hall is like playing with a card deck stacked against the gambling player and for the gambling house dealer.  Win against those odds?  A miracle needs to happen, but I won't say it's impossible, just unlikely.

NOTE:
The term "gambling house" has a counterpart in Las Vegas that's a word which begins with 'C' and ends with 'O'.  Here's the word:  .  (Nothing left but the period.)
When I look at the preview screen, the word is deleted and replaced with blank spaces.  That's because I think all this and other types of publicly accessable software is being censored.
--Lee

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2009, 07:00:12 AM »
.
Let's try this: c@sin0 and see if it flies.

It's censored primarily for self-preservation. The way the laws work when you have a site, you can be sued, charged or otherwise shut-down for even -linking- to content that's not allowed, so if one of your users posts a link that's questionable, -you- take the hit.

Anyway, that particular word is probably off-limits more for spamming-type reasons, but you never know...

BTW, most forum scripts let you enable a 'bad-words' list, as admin, you get to decide which words are allowed or not allowed, that's what's going on here.
.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2009, 07:00:12 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #116 on: September 29, 2009, 07:37:30 PM »

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2009, 11:34:32 PM »
ATT said:
Quote
Let's try this: c@sin0 and see if it flies.
It sure does.  The software doesn't recognize the word as being banned.
Quote
It's censored primarily for self-preservation. The way the laws work when you have a site, you can be sued, charged or otherwise shut-down for even -linking- to content that's not allowed, so if one of your users posts a link that's questionable, -you- take the hit.
Good thinking.  Now I know more.  I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote
Anyway, that particular word is probably off-limits more for spamming-type reasons, but you never know...
Yeah, probably so.  I'm fairly sure spammers can key on words to spider them or link to them.
Quote
BTW, most forum scripts let you enable a 'bad-words' list, as admin, you get to decide which words are allowed or not allowed, that's what's going on here.
That follows.  Software companies would use that as a selling point and customize the database filters.  You bet.

BTW, I'll try and remember the word above and the go-around fix.  I might still get a warning from the Moderators?  Depends on the word?

--Lee
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 04:53:51 AM by the_big_m_in_ok »

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #118 on: September 30, 2009, 07:54:24 AM »
@ Lee

I don't think the moderators will get that upset by using a euphemistic representation for a "banned" word unless it is to degrade or attack another forum poster, at least they haven't when I have done the same (or worse) as typing c@sin0.

Many forum packages have an already populated ban-list which many just leave in place, but moderators don't actively scan for.

Stefan is a good site owner and uses (mostly) good judgment in allowing most posts that, while they may not be "PC" (politically correct), are not attacking another poster or race.
If he does censor a post or topic he addresses why he did it so that all members have an idea where the action came from and what about it made him do so.
He seems to choose moderators that share that definition of freedom of speech and expression, and listens when some claims unjust censorship.

@ all

The fact that you're at this site proves that you are all interested in new cleaner and self sufficient energy production. Present energy production methods and "needs" are the #1 type/cause of over consumption.
We all see it and do it in one way or another, or we'd have no interest in being here.
Being able to produce for your own power needs more cleanly takes out a large part of that over consumption, as well as taking a major step towards self sufficiency, and is a goal everyone should take seriously.

While I hate to think of myself as a "doom and gloom sayer" or "chicken little", it would seem from recent events that there is an ever increasing need for people to become self sufficient.
I do have to congratulate those active in this thread for looking into how to fend for themselves and their families for a variety of reasons, economic disaster being just one.

The loss of basic civil and human rights which give more power to gov't over the the people it governs seem to be happening with more and more regularity.
When this happens historically, it leads to those in power abusing those governed to the point of civic revolution.
If that would happen in the USA, self sufficiency would become a MUCH greater need than it's presently seen as.

The latest H1N1 fear campaign has me really starting to think that someone, somewhere is starting to size up large segments of society (if not the world, since it's "pandemic") for that nose ring I mentioned before.

T3rr0rism is a fairly recently coined term for what may have been otherwise been called revolutionary or freedom fighter. It evokes fear intrinsically from the base of it's name, being a term for extreme fear. Look at what freedoms you have lost because of recent "t3rr0rist" acts.
Remember the anthrax scare in the USA, and where it was ultimately reasoned it could have come from?
http://www.ph.ucla.edu/EPI/bioter/terroranthraxlinkedus.html    and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

The best advice I can think of is, THINK! Don't react in a knee jerk fashion.

It's been pointed out many times that the best way to control large parts of society is to keep them reacting to more and more fears (whether real, or manufactured) until they stop thinking and only react. Then they look to someone to tell them what to do instead of reasoning intelligently.

Be like a boy scout and Be Prepared. Being prepared assumes careful thought and planning.

Just because I have a first aid kit doesn't mean I expect I'll be using it.
But if I do need it , it's very nice that I thought about it and was prepared.

Think about what I said and please believe me when I tell you that I'm not trying to add another fear to the huge amount "news" tells us about everyday.

I'm just giving you something to think about and be prepared for.

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2009, 05:17:12 PM »
.
@exxcomm0n

Extremely thoughtful statement, well said.

The importance of exercising reason rather that falling into a purely reactionary response to adversity is that one remains in control of one's individual actions rather than submitting to that of 'herd' mentality, which leads, as you so aptly put, to the 'nose ring' syndrome.

Tony
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