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Author Topic: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts  (Read 453359 times)

Peterae

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #165 on: September 03, 2009, 03:43:14 PM »
Hi xeno
Yes i will be using one of those spark arresters now.

I am now going for as accurate measurements as possible to try and work out the relationship between primary and secondary windings.
I am in the process of making a second secondary using 16swg wire and an exact 3 inch former to wind onto and will this time measure the wire to the mm, once my meter arrives from china will be able to measure the inductance down to 0.1uH and also the caps down to 0.1pf.

Once i have this i can try winding a primary and see where a quarter length fits in with 20 turns or 40 turns, i suspect it will be a quarter of the 20 turns including flying leads on the primary as 40 turns is a lot of wire to match.

Once i have the inductance values i can see what 0.2 on the primary and 0.5 on the secondary compute at, which hopefully will allow us to get an idea of what he was tuning for.

I cannot read the manufacturer name on the diodes although i could read a number, the brand looked like Yarg to me but when googled didn't come up with anything of use, i am amazed he said they came out of a tv, must be an old tv as i have worked on most tv's from the 70's to 90's and never seen these.

You say they are Hewlett Packard ?

The old black & white TV's used long diodes called stick rectifiers but they didn't have wire leads they plugged in.


Peter

Yucca

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #166 on: September 03, 2009, 05:41:40 PM »
if that could be simulated it would help understand the physical processes, but unfortunately it cant (except if you are a SPICE genius).

Hi xeno,

I agree to bring components into harmony spice is quicker and easier than winding and building and iterating etc. there's a guy on this forum called poynt99 who IS a spice genius.

As far as duplicating OU in Spice, you are right, a true genius would be required: by default it considers only that within the system, every component is a closed system with defined input and output nodes. RF simulations require extra more difficult modelling where circuit traces are also considered to have L and C elements.

I think if systems like Smiths do show OU then something else, unknown to us, will provide the potential to tap into it. In spice this something else would need to be modelled and entered in order to simulate it.

I think these devices may couple directly to large volumes of space and harvest some miniscule energy souce, but over a tremendous volume so the energy becomes appreciable. "Active antenna" is what I think may be the secret, use a small device to create a REALLY BIG dipole collection region occupying many billions of cubic meters and then simply rectify its output.

Peterae

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #167 on: September 03, 2009, 06:01:41 PM »
I have worked with Poynt on some projects, and he has managed to simulate these, and i agree he is an absolute genious with regards to simulation and theory.
One thing i have learned from him is that it can take ages to even simulate a simple tuned coil setup.

I think the problem with this circuit regards simulation is that it has too many variables and way too complex to get the parameters correct.

and as Yucca just said it may not show the OU effect that we are hunting down.


xenomorphlabs

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #168 on: September 04, 2009, 05:07:25 AM »
Well apart from the fact that Smith is an electrotechnical genius, he is also according to his own statements (which he nearly understates) able to simulate his circuits on a computer. He said that he doesnt even start to build something before he didnt run it through the computer. Sounds nearly unbelievable hehe. That must have been even pre-spice days. ;)

lobo

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #169 on: September 04, 2009, 08:47:39 AM »
@lobo
What book are the pages you sent from?
Can you please post a link to it?

Regards

hi MasterPlaster,


http://www.electrotherapymuseum.com/Library/Library2008Tesla.htm

search page:Armagnat

Peterae

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #170 on: September 04, 2009, 09:21:57 AM »
xeno
I will watch the film again, but the impression i got when i watched was he run the numbers through his computer, but dont remember him saying he simulated it, this could mean he chucked all the coil formula into a program entered how much power he wanted out and it designed coil dimensions and caps ect.

What i'm trying to say is there's 2 ways to sim a transfomer, you either use spice or you use pure maths of Vs/Vp= Ip/Is = Ns/Np ect

the latter he could use a zx spectrum LOL

Peterae

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #171 on: September 04, 2009, 09:58:10 AM »
I now understand how he closes the loop and powers a load at the same time.

The 2 coil inductor after the secondary caps is used as a 1:1 air transformer.

He is using a pulsed load probably much like the inverter on the diagram that Yucca is building with the 2 transistors, which draws pulsed current from the secondary caps, in the positive line from the secondary caps and his pulsed inverter load is the inductor which has the pulsed load current flowing through it, this induces a fluctuating RF magnetic field which is then coupled to the second coil on that inductor which is then rectified smoothed and fed back to the 12 volt gelcel.

So the whole circuit is recharging while powering the main load, the more power that is drawn from the main load the more power is put back into the gelcell to drive the primary inverter and neon transformer.

I am going to guess that 1 of the coils on that final inductor slides closer to the primary to adjust the coupling and hence recharge power that feeds back to the gelcell.

This is very clever and is probably in place of the matching resisitor he uses in Yucca's build diagram which matches the final output inverter, but a resistor is lost energy to heat, but using this inductor instead of waste heat we get useful recharge current instead.

Peter

Peterae

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #172 on: September 04, 2009, 02:09:10 PM »
Finished my secondary coil build now.

Specs so far

Wire 16SWG

Outer Diameter = 8.2 cm

20 Turn Coil Length = 13.5 cm

full 40 Turn Length with 3 turn gap in middle = 28 cm

Wire length on each 20 Turn Coil including tails = 528.5 cm

Once my meter arrives i can give L

Peter

gyulasun

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #173 on: September 04, 2009, 02:15:58 PM »
Hi Peter,

Very nice coils!

May I ask if you have already dipped them with your GDO?  I am just curious...  ;)

rgds, Gyula

Peterae

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #174 on: September 04, 2009, 02:30:23 PM »
Hi gyulasun

No i have not yet had a chance to do this.
I am not sure how accurate my GDO is and don't have a freq meter to confirm this, but when i did a dip on a small coil i connected my scope to one side of the dip meter coil and got a totally different freq on my scope than the GDO was reading, but this may have been because the scope loaded the coil i suspect, and i realize now i shouldnt have monitored the GDO this way, as i am new to using the GDO i need to get a bit more familar with it.

I am also worried that there are signs of it having been opened up in the past for what ever reason.

Another thing i notice when using the GDO is that the meter does move lower by itself when i move the tuning dial from min freq to max freq when sweeping, so it appears i need to keep adjusting the meter to read 0.8 as per the instruction manual, i am not sure if this is normal.


As soon as i get some time on the bench i will try different things to verify what the GDO shows.

Peter

stprue

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #175 on: September 04, 2009, 02:34:56 PM »
hi MasterPlaster,


http://www.electrotherapymuseum.com/Library/Library2008Tesla.htm

search page:Armagnat

I like this thought( in regards to the pic you posted), to me I see SM as well as a version of the tesla hairpin circuit.

Yucca

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #176 on: September 04, 2009, 06:04:51 PM »
Finished my secondary coil build now....

Superb work! I glanced the pic before I read your text, I thought it was a pic of one of Dons devices I hadn't seen yet lol.

This is a good coil inductance calculator, you could use for ballpark figure:
http://hamwaves.com/antennas/inductance.html

edit:
What did you use for your six support ribs? looks like square wooden dowel, maybe hard balsa?

silver plated wire too, very nice. Looking like a serious replication of the tabletop device.

gyulasun

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #177 on: September 04, 2009, 06:07:29 PM »
...
I am not sure how accurate my GDO is and don't have a freq meter to confirm this, but when i did a dip on a small coil i connected my scope to one side of the dip meter coil and got a totally different freq on my scope than the GDO was reading, but this may have been because the scope loaded the coil i suspect, and i realize now i shouldnt have monitored the GDO this way, as i am new to using the GDO i need to get a bit more familar with it. 

Hi Peter,

You realized it correctly, connecting a scope (or its probe) onto one side of a GDO coil may pull the measuring frequency (normally downwards) with respect to the dial. However if you place the scope probe near to the GDO coil, say at least 3-4cm from it, (the ground clip can either be floating or connected to the metal body of the GDO if any or to the GDO's battery pole), then you should see on the scope the picked-up sinusoidal oscillator signal of the GDO in the most sensitive scope input range, the benefit is that such a loose coupling will alter the dial of the GDO but a very little. This way you can even check the dial's accuracy to +/-5% or so if your scope time base accuracy is around that. If you happen to have any digital scale radio receiver for AM up to 26MHz or so or an FM receiver (89-107MHz), then you may use them also for checking at certain frequencies. (if your GDO happens to have switchable AM modulation feature, then use it for finding the GDO signal by a digitally scaled AM receiver, but even without  any modulation, you will surely 'hear' it in the speaker whenever your sweep through slowly)


Quote
...
I am also worried that there are signs of it having been opened up in the past for what ever reason.

Another thing i notice when using the GDO is that the meter does move lower by itself when i move the tuning dial from min freq to max freq when sweeping, so it appears i need to keep adjusting the meter to read 0.8 as per the instruction manual, i am not sure if this is normal.
...


Well, most of the GDOs on market behave like you describe.  This is because the wideband oscillator included in the GDO has a changing oscillating amplitude. This change is manifested in the meter movement. However, the 0.8 reading requirement is not so strick you always have to observe,  you can surely use it around 0.4 or 0.6 for the quick sweeps, so you do not have to stop sweeping in the middle of a frequency range and adjust the level again to bring the meter down,  you can do level adjusting to near 0.8 later when you have found a dip.

Here are two links you may find useful on how to use a GDO (I assume the GDO manual also have some hints):
http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_brew/15_lab/02_dipper/english/pag02_eng.htm
http://www.qsl.net/m3msm/gdo/gdo.htm

(Re on your notice of the GDO box have been opened up in the past,  well if you find big inaccuracies in the dial reading wrt the actual oscillating frequency, especially in the higher tens MHz ranges, then you may look for replacements of components inside the box, otherwise it has no significance.
Digital radio receivers can be accurate to 10kHz or so on AM and to 150-200kHz on FM.)

rgds, Gyula

Yucca

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #178 on: September 04, 2009, 06:37:33 PM »
I did some work with sig-gen and oscope on my setup last night:

pri:
7 turn with 2000pF

sec:
24 turn into FWBR into 2000pF

I measured the primary LC at about 1.6MHz with the gap closed and 7.5MHz with the gap open. But I know when it transmits it is closer to 2MHz (I sniff it with a probe 1m away when running). So when I hang any wires on this thing it increases C and lowers res.f.

I then checked for natural resonance of the secondary in situ using an unconnected sniffer scope probe. I excited the base of the secondary using a single wire off my sig-gen. I then swept looking for first resonance.

With FWBR connected:
fr = 16MHz

With FWBR disconnected:
fr = 16MHz

So maybe I need to get my primary singing at 16MHz, I will need a much smaller cap than 2000pF to get that even with only 2 turns. I'm seriously thinking of getting a vacuum variable cap although I suppose provided the input gap is narrow enough I could get away with a normal metal plate in air variable cap (much cheaper)

Peterae

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Re: Magnetic Resonance Devices based on Don Smith Concepts
« Reply #179 on: September 04, 2009, 07:06:10 PM »
Hi Yucca

Thanks for the comments.
I used grommet strip, see my post and picture on page 12 of this thread.
the grommet strip is quiet flimsey.
First i found a 3 inch tube, and it so happened i had been given a bottle of Glenfiddick Whiskey which came in a 3 inch carboard tube, so i first drank the whiskey over a 7 day period HICK Still got hangover LOL

I then tapped the grommed strips around the circumference, used a bakebean can from asda LOL to wind the coil first, i then transferred the 20 turn coil onto the Tube and into the grooves of the grommet strip.
I then applied 5 min epoxy glue into the grommet channels and let it harden.

I trimmed the ends of the coil noting how much length i took off to work out the final wire length.

The wire i used is tinned, i used this incase the enameled stops coupling to the atmosphere.

gyulasun
Thanks for this information it answers all my questions about how to use the GDO just need to get some hands on now ;)
The radio idea is great and will enable me to check the higher freq acuracy.

Yucca great stuff with the hands on ;) looks like i may need a better Sig Gen as mine only goes to 12mhz  :'(

 Very interesting the bridge doesn't alter the res freq.