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Author Topic: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER  (Read 406464 times)

Offline capthook

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #210 on: October 28, 2010, 02:11:22 AM »
Thane - most excellent to see you here again sharing your work!
I for one missed "hearing" from you and your updates.
How goes the PEREPITEIA?


3mA on a 4A full scale setting  ??? This is down in the "noise" of the meter's capability, and the reading is bound to be inaccurate (you are performing COP measurements here afterall).....
As per the above, the computations and measurements made in the video are not reliable imo.

This is my initial concern as well.

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #210 on: October 28, 2010, 02:11:22 AM »

Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #211 on: October 28, 2010, 02:54:02 AM »
Can I ask a question without being fried and twisted like a morning bacon.

CHECK THIS OUT IT MIGHT HELP...
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThaneCHeins?feature=mhum#p/u/0/IPdq_jxmPSM

BTW - WHO DOESN'T LIKE BEING FRIED AND TWISTED "MAKIN BACON"?
BECAUSE...

Offline SchubertReijiMaigo

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #212 on: October 28, 2010, 09:58:21 AM »
I have watched your latest video 'BITT 4.0" it's quite interesting, Effectively I see a good PF of 0 on load or non load. We see clearly the sinusoids (Voltage vs Current lag) doesn't moove on load !!! Very good job, thank you for clarification. :)

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #212 on: October 28, 2010, 09:58:21 AM »
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Offline majkl

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #213 on: October 28, 2010, 09:36:08 PM »
Hi,

In july I found a video about BiTT on YouTube, I've read the patents and two weeks ago I started to replicate BiTT. There are my 3 little transformers here...  ;)

The secondary cores are cores with high permeability.
The permeability of the blue "0-core" is 30000 (version A and version B)
The permeability of the brown toroid (version C) is 80000.
I'm not sure about permeability of the primary cores, but it is certainly much smaller...

I use Joule Thief bifilar winding as a primary coil... (i'm not sure if this is good idea, i will try pure AC input...)
The red wire on blue core is for detecting of changes of the magnetic flux. I will cut the "E-core" to "C-core" in version B.

I will try to post some oscilloscope shots next week...

--michael j.

Offline woopy

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #214 on: October 29, 2010, 12:05:40 AM »
Hi all

Wow Makl very nice set up  any datas already ? thanks for sharing :)

Yes Tyson it seems that in parallel the wiring is important and if you cross the wiring the output is almost nothing and on the other side it is much better. But of course we are always working with very low power so there might be a lot of other measurements to confirm.

Just for info , i have done a BITT as per Thane's  (Mary-Jo) shematic with insulated fence wire , very easily, it took me about 2 hours to complete the BITT with fence wire and winding .  Here some pix.

First crude test the fence wiring induction seems to be good enough for basic testing.

OK for tonight and tomorrow will add something to speak.

Good night at all and go on replicating

Laurent

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #214 on: October 29, 2010, 12:05:40 AM »
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Offline maw2432

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #215 on: October 29, 2010, 01:27:54 AM »
Laurent,   nice work!   Cool idea using fence wire.   I look forward to your test results.
Tell us more about the primary that you are using.

Bill

Offline wattsup

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #216 on: October 29, 2010, 01:28:59 AM »
Wow, lot's of nice toys show up.

@TH

I just knew you could not resist a good slice of bacon and was expecting to get posterized in one way or another. Good move. I really got a sizzle out of it.

Thanks for the vid that does explain a little more what you are doing. Maybe if you do not mind, we could take this a few steps further so I and others can get a better grasp of the BITT.

First I would like to mention that the actual BITT build and the drawn diagram as used in the videos are not identical. In the diagram, one would surmise that the ends of the primary core meet the first O laminates, core to core. But in reality, as I see the build it looks like the primary center core has a thinner but longer ends that make the core into an "H" core then an straight "I" core and that this H core is not directly in line with the interior of the first O core, but it is placed on top of the O core. This, in my view will tremendously diminish the potential primary to secondary transfer from 100% potential transfer to I would say 10% transfer potential you are getting right now. Was this intentional?

Why am I saying this. Again I will revert to my previous post in which I suspect very "jovially" that a good portion of the primary to secondary transfer is occurring air-to-air and not via the flux. I do acknowledge that in your last video you kindly placed some pick-up winds per three core directions and have shown rising and falling voltage pick-up although we can also say the actual voltage levels are not a true quantification of the flux movement but they just show that there is flux there, and it is moving or being modified as per your secondary coil connection variations.

When you energize the primary and show the steep rises in the scope shots, given the voltages applied, this reactive input power of high voltage low amperage cannot all transfer from the primary core to the secondary O core given the small surface area that both share, so some of that input energy has to go somewhere and I wold suspect it is creating a greater magnetic field around the primary coil.

So again I would urge you to try a test of the same running method but add any third coil, cored or not, placed on top of the primary so it is held about the same distance as the secondaries are and measure any voltage output from there, just so you can get a feel of the air-to-air potential, if any. Just place the coil on two pieces of wood atop the primary and run it. This is critical to either include or preclude this from the overall equation.

I realize you have given this to some pretty high level guys to inspect, but this does not explain why it is working, only that the numbers are of interest.

The other point I would like to expand on is the addition of the outer O core. As you show in your Video 4.0 with the three pickups, P, S1 on inner core, S0 on outer core. I do not really care if this is showing OU or not as it is not important at this stage.

The bulb load is on Secondary S2.

The applied energy to the primary was not identified verbally but once the scope showed the rising waveforms, I could see on the input ammeter located above the scope was reading an average of 6.1 amps and the input voltmeter was reading around 33.65 volts coming from your step down transformer which gave a good humm as well, and this while the bulb was loaded onto S2.

Secondary S1 is left open.
When you applied the above indicated power level to the primary the energy transfer to S2 is 9.87 volts at 0.83 amps.

Let's look at each test stage thereafter.

1) Then at no load on both secondaries, you showed the pick-up coils were showing as follows.
P = 0.742 volts
S1 = 0.390 volts
S0 = 0.008 volts

2) You then put S1 on load I imagine by shorting the coil ends together and the pick-up coils were showing as follows.
P = 0.741 volts
S1 = 0.059 volts
S0 = 0.078 volts

3) You then put S1 off load and S2 back on load and the pick-up coils were showing as follows.
P = 0.733 volts
S1 = 0.687 volts
S0 = 0.089 volts

4) You then put both S1 and S2 on load and the pick-up coils were showing as follows.
P = 0.693 volts
S1 = 0.330 volts
S0 = 0.008 volts

OK, so what this tells me may be somewhat different then what you are indicating. Again let me emphasize that the core to core surfaces that are in actual contact between the primary core are minimal and also the contact between the inner and outer O cores are also minimal in that they only touch together on the straight edges. The flux of the primary has to travel through the inner core before it can reach the outer core. This gives you a primary flux, a 1st stage flux on inner core and a 2nd stage flux on the outer core.

Also, don't forget that the secondaries are wound over both the inner and outer cores so that only half of each secondary wind is influenced by the inner core and the other half of each wind is influenced by the outer core. Given this winding format, you have to realize that any 2nd stage flux has to go through the first two stages before it can show up and this is evident in the low S0 numbers in Test 1 and 4.

Moreover, one could "speculate" that the increase in flux in S0 in Test 2 and 3 is not transfer core to core, but that the primary flux goes to the 1st stage flux that energizes half of the Secondary coil of which the other half of the same secondary coil then energizes the 2nd stage flux found in S0. This is why in Test 4 when both coils are energized, each half of the secondaries over the outer core are canceling themselves. Sounds complicated I know.

The cancellation or manipulation of this flux movement is similar to what we have seen in the MEG device and other similar devices, except that your BITT is using more channels of potential transfer, that is if you can show the transfer is not occurring air-to-air. 

Also, I would be very curious to know what the result would be if you did the following. Apply the power to the primary. Apply a make/break onto S1 so all it does is connects and disconnects that coil at an adjustable frequency while S2 is loaded with the bulb. I am thinking that while the primary provides the initial flux, pulsing the S1 on/off will create even more output onto S2 because you will be creating flux waves. At a certain frequency this should create some interesting peaks while not overtaxing the primary.

Of course, this post will self-destruct in 5 seconds and should you or any of your devices be caught by the enemy, we will disavow all knowledge of your activities. Good luck in your mission.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 04:50:10 AM by wattsup »

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #216 on: October 29, 2010, 01:28:59 AM »
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Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #217 on: October 29, 2010, 09:16:59 AM »
Thane, Wattsup,

Thanks for more details and putting summarizing data here.
I can use those for my simulations.

The practical setup indeed differs quite significantly from the theoretical drawing as Wattsup indicated. Flux in the setup will have more difficulties to change paths than in the theoretical model.

I got a bit further modeling the BITT in FEMM and using Octave scripting.
B.t.w. I am modeling the theoretical model from the drawing.
This weekend I might have first results that we can compare with the numbers that we have now.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:24:25 AM by teslaalset »

Offline wattsup

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #218 on: October 30, 2010, 06:03:06 AM »
@TH

I would like to maybe chime in to clarify something that I should have said in my previous post that may have left it in a sort of limbo which would not be a good thing. Especially with so much bacon on the frying pan. lol

One way to learn more is if the bulb was replaced by a dioded capacitor, then you could see the exact voltage levels that are being produced by the primary onto the S2. A bulb, with a meter on it will show the voltage under load but it only tells you half the story, but a cap will show you how high the output voltage can actual sustain itself. If the load with bulb shows 9.87 volts at 0.83 amps, then you try the output on a dioded cap and the cap reads 10 volts versus if the cap reads 120 volts, each of these results would tell you a greater part of the story. At 10 volts, this would confirm that amperage is piling up in the flux transfer before the load, while if it read 120 volts, it would say if the output was actually even more reactive then the input and was simply condensing on the bulb load itself.

Also, don't forget that the device is being fed AC. So when you open or close the S2, or load or not load the S1, the flux is still continuously moving one way and the other way switching 120 sides per second. In your explanations, it seems like you are explaining more a device that is being supplied DC then AC, since if it is AC, you then have to consider two directions at 60 hertz. For each S1/S2 variation, you have to consider each flow path alternating.

Anyways @TH, please keep up the good work. This is very interesting stuff. Don't only look at the OU aspect because it kind of has a tendency to blind people from what is really happening or from looking deeper. Sort of like only picking out the bacon from a good club sandwich. Not many people have the wherewithal to juggle around flux like you are doing and I personally really appreciate having seen this build.

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #218 on: October 30, 2010, 06:03:06 AM »
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Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #219 on: October 30, 2010, 09:47:29 AM »
@Wattsup,
A diode capacitor might work in a milliwatt setup, but here we are talking Watts, so you would need a real BIG capacitor to measure AC output power in a reasonable amount of time.

Offline wattsup

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #220 on: October 30, 2010, 04:11:14 PM »
@Wattsup,
A diode capacitor might work in a milliwatt setup, but here we are talking Watts, so you would need a real BIG capacitor to measure AC output power in a reasonable amount of time.

@teslaalset

You already have the watts with the bulb readings. Any capacitor like a 250v 30 to 60mF with a diode will let you see how high the voltage can actually rise off S2 very quickly with no danger at all.

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #220 on: October 30, 2010, 04:11:14 PM »
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #221 on: October 30, 2010, 05:51:06 PM »
@TH I do acknowledge that in your last video you kindly placed some pick-up winds per three core directions and have shown rising and falling voltage pick-up although we can also say the actual voltage levels are not a true quantification of the flux movement but they just show that there is flux there, and it is moving or being modified as per your secondary coil connection variations.

IF ONE KNOWS HOW TO INTERPRET THE VOTAGE LEVELS – THEN WE CAN SEE THAT THEY DO INDEED SHOW FLUX MAGNITUDE VARIATIONS INSIDE THE CORES

THERE ARE ONLY TWO THINGS HAPPENING IN THE BiTT FROM NO LOAD TO ON LOAD.

1.   NO LOAD, THE PRIMARY IS INDUCING FLUX INTO THE BiTT PRIMARY (P) AND SECONDARY INNER (SI) CORES. 
NO LOAD REPRESENTS THE BASELINE MINIMUM FLUX BASED ON THE PRIMARY INPUT VOLTAGE.

2.   ON LOAD, THE SECONDARY COILS INDUCE THEIR OWN BEMF FLUX INTO THE CORES AND THERE IS ONLY AN INCREASE IN FLUX IN THE CORES AND THERE CAN NEVER EVER BE A DECREASE IN CORE FLUX.  ONLY AN INCREASE.

THE ONLY WAY TO DECREASE THE BiTT CORE FLUX MAGNITUDES IS TO LOWER THE PRIMARY INPUT.

WHEN THE SCIENTIFIC COMUNITY FINALLY GETS THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR BUTTS THEY WILL REALIZE THAT EVERY SINGLE WIRE THAT CONDUCTS ELECTRICITY IS VIOLATING THE LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY BY “CREATING” NEW ENERGY IN THE FORM OF A MAGNETIC FIELD AROUND THE WIRE.

THE ENERGY CONTAINED IN THE ELECTRICITY FLOWING IN A WIRE HAS TWO COMPONENTS, 1) THE ELECTRIC POTENTIAL ENERGY AND 2) THE MAGNETIC POTENTIAL ENERGY. BRAIN WASHED CONVENTIONAL SCIENTISTS ONLY ACCOUNT FOR THE ELECTRICAL ENERGY AND DON’T EVEN CONSIDER THE MAGNETIC POTENTIAL ENERGY OR HOW IT IS MAGICALLY CREATED!

THIS MAGNETIC FIELD AS WE ALL KNOW IS THE BASIS FOR LENZ’S LAW OR HOW NEWTON’S THIRD LAW IS MANIFESTED IN AN ELECTRICAL ENERGY SYSTEM WHICH SATISFIES THE BRAIN BLIND CONVENTIONAL SCIENTIST’S EXCUSE FOR NOT THINKING UNLESS THE ELECTRICAL AND MAGNETIC ENERGY POTENTIALS ARE LOOKED AT FROM A PURELY NON-DIRECTIONAL VIEW - JUST AS PURE ENERGY POTENTIAL.   

IF WE DID WE WOULD SEE THAT A MAGIC MAGNET FIELD ENERGY IS “CREATED” WHEN ELECTRICAL ENERGY FLOWS IN A CONDUCTOR AND THE MAGNETIC POTENTIAL ENERGY IS EQUAL TO THE ELECTRIC POTENTIAL ENERGY (WHICH IS THE ONLY ENERGY WE “DARE TO” MEASURE).
THE SENSOR COILS ON THE BiTT PROVE THE ABOVE HERE IS WHY.

Quote
The bulb load is on Secondary S2. The applied energy to the primary was not identified verbally but once the scope showed the rising waveforms, I could see on the input ammeter located above the scope was reading an average of 6.1 amps and the input voltmeter was reading around 33.65 volts coming from your step down transformer which gave a good humm as well, and this while the bulb was loaded onto S2.

CORRECTION: THE INPUT CURRENT WAS 0.61 AMPS NOT 6.1 AMPS.

Quote
Secondary S1 is left open. When you applied the above indicated power level to the primary the energy transfer to S2 is 9.87 volts at 0.83 amps.
Let's look at each test stage thereafter.
1) Then at no load on both secondaries, you showed the pick-up coils were showing as follows.
P = 0.742 volts
S1 = 0.390 volts
S0 = 0.008 volts

YES THESE ARE THE BASELINE MINIMUM FLUX POTENTIALS CONVERTED TO VOLTS INSIDE THE VOLTMETER.

Quote
2) You then put S1 on load I imagine by shorting the coil ends together and the pick-up coils were showing as follows.

CORRECTION: S1 IS PLACE ON LOAD (LIGHT BULB) AND S2 IS OPEN.

Quote
P = 0.741 volts
S1 = 0.059 volts

THIS REPRESENTS A 561% INCREASE IN SI FLUX.

Quote
S0 = 0.078 volts

THIS IS AN 875 % INCREASE IN S0 FLUX.

Quote
3) You then put S1 off load and S2 back on load and the pick-up coils were showing as follows.
P = 0.733 volts
S1 = 0.687 volts

INCREASE 76% FLUX INCREASE.

Quote
S0 = 0.089 volts

A 1013 % FLUX INCREASE.

Quote
4) You then put both S1 and S2 on load and the pick-up coils were showing as follows.
P = 0.693 volts

A 6.6 % INCREASE IN SECONDARY INDUCED FLUX COUPLING BACK THROUGH THE PRIMARY – LOWERING PRIMARY IMPEDANCE AND CAUSING THE PRIMARY TO DRAW MORE SOURCE CURRENT AS PER A CONVENTIONAL TRANSFORMER.

Quote
S1 = 0.330 volts

TO BALANCE S1’s 561% INCREASE IN SI FLUX FROM #2 ABOVE WOULD REQUIRE AN ADDITIONAL 561% INCREASE IN FLUX COMINGS2 FOR A TOTAL OF 1100% INCREASE IN SI FLUX OVER NO LOAD BASELINE.

Quote
S0 = 0.008 volts

LIKEWISE A TOTAL INCREASE IN S0 FLUX OF ABOUT 2000% IS REQUIRED TO BALANCE THE FLUX INSIDE THE VOLTMETER SO THAT THE FLUX GOING ONE WAY EQUALS THE FLUX GOING THE OTHER WAY SO THE NET FLUX CHANGE = ZERO.

SO THE TOTAL INCREASE IN FLUX INSIDE THE BiTT FROM NO LOAD TO ON LOAD IS ABOUT 3000% WHICH IS REQUIRED TO SELF REGULATE THE SECONDARY FLUX LAVELS TO MAINTAIN THE LOAD VOLTAGE WITH A MERE 6.6% GOING BACK THROUGH THE PRIMARY RATHER THAN THE 100% AS PER A CONVENTIONAL TRANSFORMER. 

Quote
OK, so what this tells me may be somewhat different then what you are indicating.

NO CLARIFICATION IS JUST REQUIRED AS USUAL.

Quote
This is why in Test 4 when both coils are energized, each half of the secondaries over the outer core are cancelling themselves. Sounds complicated I know.

I TELL YOU THIS – THE PERSON WHO CAN DEVISE A WAY TO USE ONE MAGNETIC FIELD TO CANCEL ANOTHER WILL BE THE MOST FAMOUS PERSON EVER BECAUSE NOW THIS FLUX CANCELLATION METHOD COULD BE USED TO ELIMINATE LENZ’S LAW IN GENERATORS AND THE HARMFULL EFFECTS OF CELLPHONES ETC.

Quote
The cancellation or manipulation of this flux movement is similar to what we have seen in the MEG device and other similar devices,

CORRECTION: YOUR EYES/MINDS ARE PLAYING TRICKS ON YOU ALL BECAUSE FLUX CANCELLATION IS NOT POSSIBLE (AT THIS TIME).

Quote
Of course, this post will self-destruct in 5 seconds and should you or any of your devices be caught by the enemy, we will disavow all knowledge of your activities. Good luck in your mission.

IGNORANCE IS OUR ONLY ENERMY.

CHEERS
T

Offline wattsup

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #222 on: October 30, 2010, 08:30:48 PM »
@TH

Thanks for your reply. Nothing in what I indicated is written in stone. I only wanted to put some things on the table for your comments. I put it in a way that "I" can understand and I am sure many others can get a better grasp of your BITT device "as you see it" or "know it to be".

From experience, there is no point to drag anyone or any concept holder to the ground. In all this, there is a great degree of both concept building and presumption of effects. Yes you can measure an effect but in many ways, we are constantly presuming what the effect is due to. Someone once said "we can only achieve or attain our maximum degree of ineptitude" and in a way, we are all trying to surpass our own personal levels every day. That is why we are here. To learn.

So, regarding electricity travel, reason for wire flux build up and all such more conventional notions that we hold today as common acceptance, yes they are all up for debate. I have some pretty radical but perfectly plausible ideas of what this all is and given the right time and platform, I will put them forth for the classical firing squad to shoot away at, but this is not the place for such discussion so let's just keep to the device.

OK, so you indicated "THE INPUT CURRENT WAS 0.61 AMPS NOT 6.1 AMPS". OK, now I am totally floored for having missed that but that decimal point was pretty hard to see and there was no verbal confirmation on that so please excuse this major bacon fry'in error. Floored is not the word. Jaw dropped and flabbergasted would be more proper as I do realize the implications. I had held back another post because that 6.1 amps just did not correlate but did not know how to explain it. Now I understand.

As far as flux cancellation not being possible, yes you are very right and I should have only indicated flux manipulation. Sorry for that. Playing around with flux paths is not an easy task and even harder to grasp as a general concept. Especially with an AC feed switching the flux around all those paths. The thing about flux is it has no , no polarity, it is just pure energy that induces a polarities in a coil. That is why a compass next to a transformer core does almost nothing. There is no positive and negative flux. The cancellation can only happen in the coil, in terms of the coils output, if the coil has two flux paths traveling in opposite directions. But those flux paths do not cancel each other out.

I am very glad to at least have a chance to see more where you are coming from with this device and hopefully it will open some more eyes in this regard.

Now the only thing left is to back up a few steps and re-explain the many percentages you have indicated as I do know in advance that it will create some major commotion as to how you see this being calculated. Again, let me stipulate that I am not discounting those numbers but just want, and I am sure others want, to better understand you methodology.

Put it this way. Since I am a good example of a numskull on OU wheels, I now how others in the same boat will react to your numbers and am giving you a good platform and tabling method to put some more clarity into those numbers.

So please, let's just all calm down, take a few steps back and not risk blowing this all apart with irrational explosions of dismay. Let's keep the task of understanding this further, with your help of course.

I'll only be back tomorrow as I will be jamming all night with some long-time friends. We do this once or twice a year. Soon.

Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #223 on: October 31, 2010, 02:19:29 AM »
"From experience, there is no point to drag anyone or any concept holder to the ground."  :P

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #224 on: October 31, 2010, 04:06:33 AM »
@ Cranky (or anyone else if I have missed something...)

I am working on a replication of the BTT and before I start winding my coils I wanted to clarify something.

On the schematic it shows the primary as 1000 turns and the secondary as 200 turns, both 20 gauge wire (5:1 ratio)

- Would that be 200 turns each secondary, or total?
- Is this still your recommended ratio, or should I try something else?

Thank you, this is allot of fun to work on  ;D

 

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