Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 83679
  • *Latest: Mbonheur

  • *Total Posts: 515839
  • *Total Topics: 15377
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 3
  • *Guests: 6
  • *Total: 9

Author Topic: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER  (Read 375181 times)

Offline Kator01

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #285 on: August 11, 2011, 12:59:54 AM »
Hi SchubertReijiMaigo,

indeed the signal is destorted  to a triangle which means, all meters read wrong values. So this test is useless.
The standart ac-meters are all build for pure ac-sinuswave.

Regards

Kator01

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #285 on: August 11, 2011, 12:59:54 AM »

Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #286 on: August 13, 2011, 04:03:03 AM »
Also to say something on noise a transformer makes. An "unloaded" transformer, ie one that's purely an inductor, makes so much noise because the magnetic domains are constantly flipping back and forward which has a mechanical aspect to it (magnetostriction). However when it's loaded the secondary which causes an opposite field reduces this domain flipping action and thus the mechanical vibration. An ideal conventional transformer that is fully loaded (powerfactor of 1) should have no domains being flipped because the field of the secondary is continuously canceling out the primary field.

Since in a BTT type transformer the powerfactor is 0 (as if the transformer is unloaded) we should see the vibration remain instead of decrease or vanish when the transformer is loaded. In fact it might even increase as the secondary core will also start to vibrate when it's loaded.

Just my 2 cents on that particular subject.

Offline penno64

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 458
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #287 on: August 15, 2011, 01:15:11 PM »
Hi Jack,

Any progress ?

Penno

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #287 on: August 15, 2011, 01:15:11 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #288 on: August 15, 2011, 01:44:50 PM »
Well I got me a true rms volt meter, BSI model BS1704. Those light bulbs are a bit misleading, I made several tests:

With no load both output coils showed 108 volts. I put 1 watt light bulb on one secondary and voltage on the other was 120 volts. With 40 watt bulb voltage was 170 volts, with 350 watt electric saw voltage was 190 volts and when secondary was shorted voltage was 198.5 volts. So adding load increased voltage in other side.

Test using 350 saw as load and primary shorted, no light bulbs.
Current in primary side settled down to 167 mA and output settled from 350 mA to 287 mA. Shows OU but not very good, maybe about 1.85 depending what value is used as output voltage, safe assumption is that 190 volts but I think it is actually higher. So input power used was about 37 watts and output 54.5 - 63.1 watts. I would need a true RMS wattmeter to confirm exactly. This is understandable as the amount of core that is in the alternate path is almost the same size in diameter that goes through the primary. To get more power out this ratio needs to be increased using more alternate paths or use different permeability cores.

When I used normal trafo version current in primary side was 287 mA and in secondary side it was 280 mA.

I think I will try a 3d version next, it will be easier to build. I put those E-I plates in top and bottom (as they are all I got) then I connect them with laminated iron rods and just put coils in there, primary in the center and secondaries in the corners. I have 4 coils I can play with and I should be able to measure the effect in third coil when load is added to two other secondaries. I have also in mind a third variation but lets see what I can get from this version. I have one big primary coil but it does not fit inside the E-I plates so I try putting it outside and couple it with intermediate coil. If I get any notable effects I can draw pictures of the setup.

Offline penno64

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 458
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #289 on: August 15, 2011, 02:26:50 PM »
Thanks Jack

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #289 on: August 15, 2011, 02:26:50 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #290 on: August 16, 2011, 11:24:38 AM »
Did some tests with 3d version, not getting OU this time but made observation that verified my initial assumption. I got one primary coil, it was getting 220 V, in the center as described earlier and three secondary coils in the corners. Each coil showed about 60 V when unloaded.

Test 1: One secondary shorted, two other secondaries showed 72.5 V, increase on 12.5 V compared to unloaded case.
Test 2: Two secondaries put together and shorted, third one showed now 107 V, increase of 34.5 V (2.76 times) compared to test 1 and increase of 47 V compared to unloaded case.

Tests show nice upward scalability, back EMF of each new secondary gets amplified in rest of secondaries. The more secondaries you got the more they amplify each other and amplification factor seems to be more than linear. I wish I would have had fourth coil to play with. When I shorted the three coils together I started to get sparks which did not happen with 107 V.

I have couple of more tests in mind that I can do with this crap material I got. If I get anything usefull out of them I will post it here.

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #291 on: August 19, 2011, 10:13:14 AM »
I like the idea of intermediate coil, it has the effect of reducing current taken from primary coil. I made few simple tests to verify this, when two cores were connected together using intermediate coils that is shorted, shorting the secondary made lights go dimmer in primary side.
When using normal trafo in this mode shorting the secondary makes light go brighter in primary side. Mode explanation about this effect can be found here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6446.0

So, one solution is to combine this with two secondaries having alternate path I have been toying with, see picture below what I mean.

Important things to understand with this setup:
Note how 'green' flux has the same direction as 'blue' fluxes from secondary cores thus aiding primary coil. Energy taken does not take energy from primary or it reduces energy consumption in primary coil if this 'blue' flux is higher.
Note how the 'blue' flux is in same direction with purple flux thus adding flux seen by each secondary, Frolov/Thane effect. Energy taken gets amplified by secondaries.

I need to test if adding more secondaries in this single frame will get you more power increase. This I have verified with 3d version but in that secondaries where using separate cores. I dont think more secondaries in same core would work as it is shown in the MFT paper above.
 
This might not be the optimum setup for intermediate coil though. If coil is wound separately around grey cores then both cores would get a copy of the flux in primary: first wound in red core, then continue to one grey core and from there to second grey core then short back to start. So already in this phase energy creating flux would be doubled. This would need to be tested, I am not sure if I have enough scrap to play with.

Does anyone see a flaw with above explanation ?

I have dumped the 3d version for now. Problem with that is that it wastes material, it is easier to make those coils but waste of perm alloy it is not good. Permeability differences are not necessarily needed here as all fluxes are now aiding. The fall guy is the intermediate coil but we dont care as it comes for free lol.

But lets assume permeability increases when going from primary core to secondary core to tertiary core. Would the blue flux from secondaries be bigger than purple flux that created it ? If so then it would mean that current in primary would go down as more aiding flux would come back. Based on the experiment I made this might be the case, though I was using only iron plates with secondaries amplifying each other.

Easiest way to build this is to get some perm alloy stripes, they come in reels and are sold by their weight. For example 0.35 mm thick and 16 mm wide, weighs 0.05 kg/m. From that you can easily make whatever kind of core you need. I have requested a quote for one material, NiloMag77, its initial permeability is 60000 which is good enough for proto typing. If you can make heat treatment you can get more permeability, upto 300000. Problem is that I dont know for sure if heat treatment is required, I hope not so it would be easy to make a prototype.

I have one hypotethical question, this aiding flux that primary sees, if it is lets say two times bigger than what comes in from primary then what happens in the company meter ? Does it see energy getting pushed back and if so can the tick go in reverse direction ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #291 on: August 19, 2011, 10:13:14 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Mavendex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #292 on: August 23, 2011, 11:43:26 PM »
I like the idea of intermediate coil, it has the effect of reducing current taken from primary coil. I made few simple tests to verify this, when two cores were connected together using intermediate coils that is shorted, shorting the secondary made lights go dimmer in primary side.
When using normal trafo in this mode shorting the secondary makes light go brighter in primary side. Mode explanation about this effect can be found here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6446.0

So, one solution is to combine this with two secondaries having alternate path I have been toying with, see picture below what I mean.

Important things to understand with this setup:
Note how 'green' flux has the same direction as 'blue' fluxes from secondary cores thus aiding primary coil. Energy taken does not take energy from primary or it reduces energy consumption in primary coil if this 'blue' flux is higher.
Note how the 'blue' flux is in same direction with purple flux thus adding flux seen by each secondary, Frolov/Thane effect. Energy taken gets amplified by secondaries.

I need to test if adding more secondaries in this single frame will get you more power increase. This I have verified with 3d version but in that secondaries where using separate cores. I dont think more secondaries in same core would work as it is shown in the MFT paper above.
 
This might not be the optimum setup for intermediate coil though. If coil is wound separately around grey cores then both cores would get a copy of the flux in primary: first wound in red core, then continue to one grey core and from there to second grey core then short back to start. So already in this phase energy creating flux would be doubled. This would need to be tested, I am not sure if I have enough scrap to play with.

Does anyone see a flaw with above explanation ?

I have dumped the 3d version for now. Problem with that is that it wastes material, it is easier to make those coils but waste of perm alloy it is not good. Permeability differences are not necessarily needed here as all fluxes are now aiding. The fall guy is the intermediate coil but we dont care as it comes for free lol.

But lets assume permeability increases when going from primary core to secondary core to tertiary core. Would the blue flux from secondaries be bigger than purple flux that created it ? If so then it would mean that current in primary would go down as more aiding flux would come back. Based on the experiment I made this might be the case, though I was using only iron plates with secondaries amplifying each other.

Easiest way to build this is to get some perm alloy stripes, they come in reels and are sold by their weight. For example 0.35 mm thick and 16 mm wide, weighs 0.05 kg/m. From that you can easily make whatever kind of core you need. I have requested a quote for one material, NiloMag77, its initial permeability is 60000 which is good enough for proto typing. If you can make heat treatment you can get more permeability, upto 300000. Problem is that I dont know for sure if heat treatment is required, I hope not so it would be easy to make a prototype.

I have one hypotethical question, this aiding flux that primary sees, if it is lets say two times bigger than what comes in from primary then what happens in the company meter ? Does it see energy getting pushed back and if so can the tick go in reverse direction ?

This Idea does work, the Intermediate as you call it or I call it a Primary driver will hold current if placed between two pieces of metal one where it gets the flux then dumps that flux into the next metal while the primary is also dumping flux, the cool part about this is that you have to use less amperage to make this and my device work or you can get it to really work well with the added flux for overall less power used.

 Ive already tested it and have it setup on a triple core, although it does store flux it changes your values as far as your voltages and a couple other things, adding capacitance to the device seems to send power out in both directions and not just the reactive power im still testing but it seems to be working out like that.

oh and its way way simpler to get it to a pf of 0 basically if it where possible and I believe it is you get under 0 and not only are you giving everything back but now your giving a little more.

Primary driver for the win.

Just tried it again with my shell shorted to itself as well and it says thiers volts but when a load is applied the volts don't change or the load work..... very intresting...., anyway good luck on your intermediate, its a good idea! mabye drop a capacitor on that guy to slosh the energy around a bit.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 06:11:06 AM by Mavendex »

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #293 on: August 24, 2011, 11:12:06 AM »
Thanks Mav, nice to have guys around here who can do tests like this.

Yesterday I was able to do more testing and proved to myself that the concepts in the MFT paper do work, namely flux copying and intermediate coil. Also realised that the stuff going on the intermediate coil can be used to load something, or connected to output directly. However my intermediate coil was using 220 volts and my output coils were thicker and they put out only 23 volts so intermediate output did not mix in well. When I connected intermediate coil to output in wrong way primary started to drain more from source and when it was in the correct way primary used only two milliamps more. When I placed load on secondary primary used less power, actually it used less power than in its idle state. Idle state meaning that intermediate coil was not connected to anything. However, because my secondary coils were different connecting to output directly was not better than just shorting the intermediate coil. I did place the intermediate coil to run the electric saw and when pressed the start button lights on the load side went on. There was only 36 mA running in the intermediate coils (when shorted) so it was not enough to run it though. But power is still power even if it is small.

I did not compare this to normal trafo so no exact figures but I have tested normal trafo earlier and lamps on the primary side were brightly lit when lights on secondary side went on.

I have now obtained enough data to get me convinced and I have designed a transformer that combines all these principles, namely flux copying, intermediate coil and back EMF amplification in a single package. It uses minimum of four toroidal cores of same permeability, of course higher the better. Toroids can be small, for example M-088 from magnetec costs 30 Eur and has u of 80000, inner diameter 48 mm. At the moment they have only 2 cores available in stock and it might take weeks to get more. Their Magneperm material should have higher u but no info on that yet.

All cores are wound in the same way and then connected together, windings will be nonconventional. Toroids can be placed flat on a board or they can form a tube or there can be many tubes forming a big cylinder. All driven from single primary core. Additional output can be obtained using more output cores or more intermediate cores connected to more output cores. But always only single primary core.

This is difficult to explain so I need to make a paper about it that describes the principles and enough build details to make it happen. This will take several days so I will start immediately. Now I am thinking if I should build this myself first which will take some time mainly because of core lead time, or should I just post the paper before I get the items needed to build this. So how about it, are there any volunteers having four preferrably nanoperm toroids lying around with some spare Litz or figure 8 wire ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #293 on: August 24, 2011, 11:12:06 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Mavendex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #294 on: August 24, 2011, 03:42:50 PM »
don't forget metglas and fetite as well

Offline Mavendex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #295 on: August 24, 2011, 09:36:52 PM »
I was going over your hypothesis there and thats alot like the conduit I posted a couple weeks ago, rodin style transformers are cool unconventional winding is great. All you would need is two nanoperms wound up in the unconventional format. Large for the rodin style,  small for your helical or geometric shape, theres a few configurations that work very well. and a few that are bleh.

Should review how your flux paths work in such a model gotta remember that a magnetic field travels 90 degrees and its the completed path that makes it work.

all in all the smaller nanoperms would cost you around 100 a piece, and the tube it self would be rather inexpensive probably could pickone up at menards or home depot. Its time intensive. I tried a couple models like that a year or so ago, the output is nominal but not terrible.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #295 on: August 24, 2011, 09:36:52 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #296 on: August 25, 2011, 08:06:42 AM »
The version I am working on consists only of toroids, no steel shells or anything like that. Toroid material can be anything but I would prefer higher permeability material so that less turns are needed.

No rodin for wiring, only 3d bifilars using Litz. There are many ways to make 3d bifilar and I put something that could work better than plain 2d bifilar. With Litz it is easy to test different variations without tearing windings apart so I just propose something that look interesting/weird.

I recently looked at some guy that compared starship rodin to conventional rodin and starship rodin was better. He put a magnet inside and watched it spin. There is also sun flower rodin, number of points is prime number so when it is wound there comes vortex automatically. Starship/sunflower rodin is much easier to make. But maybe these rodin coils and it variants work better with higher frequency signals, haven't studied this and just quessing here.

Offline Mavendex

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #297 on: August 25, 2011, 10:07:58 AM »
The version I am working on consists only of toroids, no steel shells or anything like that. Toroid material can be anything but I would prefer higher permeability material so that less turns are needed.

No rodin for wiring, only 3d bifilars using Litz. There are many ways to make 3d bifilar and I put something that could work better than plain 2d bifilar. With Litz it is easy to test different variations without tearing windings apart so I just propose something that look interesting/weird.

I recently looked at some guy that compared starship rodin to conventional rodin and starship rodin was better. He put a magnet inside and watched it spin. There is also sun flower rodin, number of points is prime number so when it is wound there comes vortex automatically. Starship/sunflower rodin is much easier to make. But maybe these rodin coils and it variants work better with higher frequency signals, haven't studied this and just quessing here.

stars-hips aren't bad easier to build, there is a reason starships are better than normal Rodin, Ab-ha by Randy Powel or look up jack sholze if your looking to make a bicycle motor.

but those are just normal rodin coils, 18 turns... the Abha Rodin coil you can pulse the coil, watch your magnet spin, turn off the coil your magnet will keep spining, walk across the room with the magnet and the coil off, and the magnet will keep spinning for a good long time.

Its alot of study, and well worth the knowledge cause it can be applied to solid state. Beware it can make you a little crazy :)

You can't do that with the starship, nor a standard rodin coil, you actually create a vortex instead of a psudo vortex.
heres the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqAWgNVXUxI

Apply that concept to solid state and well thats a winner.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 05:13:20 PM by Mavendex »

Offline SchubertReijiMaigo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #298 on: September 01, 2011, 11:02:18 AM »
When two flux of opposite direction are in the same core, the net flux tend to be zero...

In the outer path the flux is zero, (but not mean any energy in this core !!!).

At the coil (sec1 or sec2) will remain only the primary flux but BEMF of the two coil fighting itself in the outer core, I have tested with FEMM: between the outer and the inner core should have an air gap, if not then the BITT don't work properly...

Offline SchubertReijiMaigo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #299 on: September 01, 2011, 11:32:24 AM »
This BITT have two distinct core: one for the primary flux and another one for the two secondary...
You will see that the outer path have no flux...

Primary was saturated at 50 ampere/turns ( to increase reluctance and increase reactive current at primary side).

Secondary fighting each other 39 ampere/turns... IF you read this topic Thane (cranky pant's speak about a "air gap" between the outer and inner core...)

 

OneLink