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Author Topic: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER  (Read 365495 times)

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2010, 10:42:09 PM »
Guys,

Would it be possible to emulate / simulate Thane's effect using this type of core.

I am uncertain how secondary windings 1 and 2 are connected to load.

Any help greatly appreciated, for I would love to re - create this effect.

Regards, Penno

Penno,

One can tell already by looking at this core, that this one will not succeed in getting the right effect.
The primary core needs to have a higher reluctance (= flux resistance) than the secondary cores.
Higher reluctance can be obtained by saturation in this particular core.
But then it will block the flux generated by one secondary coils going to the other secondary coil.

Sorry, but not really worth the effort to simulate. This one will simply not work.

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2010, 10:42:09 PM »

Offline broli

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #121 on: October 22, 2010, 10:51:20 PM »
Penno,

One can tell already by looking at this core, that this one will not succeed in getting the right effect.
The primary core needs to have a higher reluctance (= flux resistance) than the secondary cores.
Higher reluctance can be obtained by saturation in this particular core.
But then it will block the flux generated by one secondary coils going to the other secondary coil.

Sorry, but not really worth the effort to simulate. This one will simply not work.

Something more interesting happens when you add a gap in the big toroidal core. This time however it can completely neutralize the field of the primary, so PF = 0. BUT the primary is putting in 10 amps with 10 turns, while the secondary (the toroidal coil around the gapped toroidal core) needs 63amps at 10 turns to completely neutralize the primary. What does it mean?

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #122 on: October 22, 2010, 11:00:01 PM »
1) kind of, see 3)
2) yes
3) no load is basically the case you describe in your first question. In the sim that toroid is really a core 1000 perm. with 0 Amps current. With On load I change the current value to say 10amps to simulate induction action. As the toroidal coil would want to oppose the field of the primary.

Broli,

This seems a difficult one in Femm.
Below my interpretation, but it will not run, because Femm does not allow the touching of two circles. It such case it can not build up a mesh network of points where it calculates the flux.

Would a similar setup with 2 rectangular cores work?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #122 on: October 22, 2010, 11:00:01 PM »
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Offline SchubertReijiMaigo

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #123 on: October 22, 2010, 11:01:00 PM »
@ teslaalset. saturation core is to obtain a higher relucatnce in the primary core, the air gap do the same thing, but when you saturate a path you draw more current in the primary that's what on conventional transformer we use Boucherot formula to avoid saturation, and very very small air gap add linearity and amplify Heins effect (the magnetic diode) without increasing substantialy the current (you can wind more turn to avoid this). Saturation is not whole the time because we have sinusoidal signal... I have read Thane's document the primary can work with high Z or high R and saturated. The high Z mode is like conventional primary (not saturated) the high R mode is heavely sataurated but the current is limited by the R of the very small wire. So the BTT can have several configuration, I think the gapped version is more stable with heavy load, or varying load like motor...

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #124 on: October 22, 2010, 11:10:42 PM »
@ teslaalset. saturation core is to obtain a highter relucatnce in the primary core, the air gap do the same thing, but when you saturate a path you draw more current in the primary that's what on conventional transformer we use Boucherot formula to avoid saturation, an very very small air gap add linearity and amplify Heins effect (the mahn,etic diode) without incresing fdera

SchubertReijiMaigo,

My understanding, with all respect:
Introducing a gap in a core shifts the point of saturation to higher current values.
Applying this in the BITT means that a larger part of the sinus of the primary AC current has no saturation, leading to higher losses due to more counter EMF in the primary coil. I still don't understand your point, sorry.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #124 on: October 22, 2010, 11:10:42 PM »
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Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #125 on: October 22, 2010, 11:14:17 PM »
Guys, I am going to have some sleep.
We'll continue discussing tomorrow.....zzzzzzzzZZZZZ

Offline woopy

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2010, 12:09:05 AM »
Hi Thane

thanks a lot for all your info

Now a simple question

Is the second  "secondary coil"  really necessary ? I mean do you think (or know)  that the effect would desappear if we keep the outer toroid core with only one secondary ?
 
Or better said ,is the ping-pong game between the 2 secondaries  BEMF mandatory ?

and apart of this, the red colour seems to suits you very well but with a white cross in the back it could be nicer and i remind you that you  are always invited for a "raclette " here  in Switrzerland :D

Cheers

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2010, 12:09:05 AM »
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Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2010, 08:48:36 AM »
@ teslaalset. saturation core is to obtain a higher relucatnce in the primary core, the air gap do the same thing, but when you saturate a path you draw more current in the primary that's what on conventional transformer we use Boucherot formula to avoid saturation, and very very small air gap add linearity and amplify Heins effect (the magnetic diode) without increasing substantialy the current (you can wind more turn to avoid this). Saturation is not whole the time because we have sinusoidal signal... I have read Thane's document the primary can work with high Z or high R and saturated. The high Z mode is like conventional primary (not saturated) the high R mode is heavely sataurated but the current is limited by the R of the very small wire. So the BTT can have several configuration, I think the gapped version is more stable with heavy load, or varying load like motor...

SchubertReijiMaigo,

I really needed that sleep, I see you point now.

The first part of the B-H slope (the lower H part) is less steep in a gaped core when compared to the same non gaped one.
A less steep slope has higher reluctance in that part of the B-H curve than a steep one.
That allows indeed for much higher currents, so basically you scale the unit up to allow higher higher powers (currents).
But when you only use smaller loads, I think it's not worth using an air gap, because the losses will be higher percent wise.

Offline penno64

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2010, 09:27:07 AM »
Hi Teslaalsat,

Thank you for the advice regarding the core.

Can you please advise how the secondaries are connected to load - series or parallel ?

Kindest Regards, Penno


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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2010, 09:27:07 AM »
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Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2010, 10:10:29 AM »
Hi Teslaalsat,

Thank you for the advice regarding the core.

Can you please advise how the secondaries are connected to load - series or parallel ?

Kindest Regards, Penno

Hi Penno,

I believe the loads on Thanes BITT are individual loads but equal in ohmic value. So each secondary coil has its own load.

In my view its perfectly OK to connect the two secondary windings in series and use one ohmic load, but they should be connected in the right way to obtain the clockwise and anticlockwise BEMF that eliminate each other.
Also you need exactly the same amount of windings in the secondaries if you connect them up in series.

I wouldn't connect them in parallel. They will never have exactly the same inductance and resistance.
It's important that the currents through those secondaries are exactly the same to get the best efficiency.



Offline broli

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2010, 10:18:03 AM »
Broli,

This seems a difficult one in Femm.
Below my interpretation, but it will not run, because Femm does not allow the touching of two circles. It such case it can not build up a mesh network of points where it calculates the flux.

Would a similar setup with 2 rectangular cores work?

Perhaps someone can predraw it in autocad so it can be imported in FEMM. The reason why I picked a toroid in vizimag is because I can draw a simple toroidal core all around it. With a rectangular core I can't do this, perhaps in FEMM you can. Or if someone else could make it in autocad so it can be imported in FEMM.

The discovery is that if you do have a coil all around the core that it seems to take more current to neutralize the primary than a conventional transformer tries to do.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2010, 10:18:03 AM »
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Offline SchubertReijiMaigo

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2010, 10:33:17 AM »
Thank teslaalset, generally after a good night, we have better mind ^^

The goal of any transformer is to power heavy load, you don't use a 3 KVA transfomer to power a 40 watts light bulb, in any transfomer you have some reactive current made by the primary to the main line. Reactive current don't consumme energy but add some intensity and heat the wire (that's what electrical company bills the reactive current for the industriels). Both method is good high Z or high R and saturation... The main deal here is to create the magnetic diode. I have even thinked to add 2 small (0.1 or even 0.05 mm) symetricaly on the outer toroid, yes you sacrify some inductance value but you have perfect linear B/H curve and you can carrying large current. The permeability is stable the whole sinus and virtually any load, the magnetic diode is perfect !!!
With FEMM you cannot simulate BEMF you can only simulate DC fields and and each coils separately, that's why when we try to play with, we have some weird flux line and comportement, like previously: the flux run outside the iron block...

Offline broli

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2010, 10:51:14 AM »
Some more images.

The air gap causes more flux (about 15 times) to be concentrated on oneside of the core. This should cause a bigger induced voltage in the big troidal coil. Then I started to raise the amperage in the big coil until the field died in the primary. The resulting amperage is seen in the last image. Ofcourse this simulation doesn't tell us what the generated voltage is. If the induced voltage would go down by a factor of 7 compared to the input voltage we end up were we started.

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2010, 10:52:28 AM »
Thank teslaalset, generally after a good night, we have better mind ^^

The goal of any transformer is to power heavy load, you don't use a 3 KVA transfomer to power a 40 watts light bulb, in any transfomer you have some reactive current made by the primary to the main line. Reactive current don't consumme energy but add some intensity and heat the wire (that's what electrical company bills the reactive current for the industriels). Both method is good high Z or high R and saturation... The main deal here is to create the magnetic diode. I have even thinked to add 2 small (0.1 or even 0.05 mm) symetricaly on the outer toroid, yes you sacrify some inductance value but you have perfect linear B/H curve and you can carrying large current. The permeability is stable the whole sinus and virtually any load, the magnetic diode is perfect !!!
With FEMM you cannot simulate BEMF you can only simulate DC fields and and each coils separately, that's why when we try to play with, we have some weird flux line and comportement, like previously: the flux run outside the iron block...

SchubertReijiMaigo,

I did some simulations in FEMM with tiny air gaps, but FEMM doesn't like very small gaps, due to the method of using mesh network.
If e.g. you use a 0.05 mm gap, it simply will not run, only when you have a very powerfull PC.
One way to get around this is to define a core material in the FEMM materials library that has a non-linear curve of a gaped core.
The other problem is that FEMM doesn't cope with full cycle B-H curves.
I am trying to find a way to get around that as well.

Did you encounter the same issues with FEMM?
If you have a work around for these issues, please let me know.


Offline SchubertReijiMaigo

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Re: Thane Heins BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER
« Reply #134 on: October 23, 2010, 10:53:15 AM »
Sorry for the two consecutive post,

@ Broli I have the same problem FEMM can't modelize correctly the toroid...
I don't know how to use autocad unfortunately, but I post also a "Easy winding industrial design" of the BTT. This BTT have two demi cores and a two demi I at the center. The I can be gapped or not, in my version, he have a gap of 0.2mm. The machine can wind more easly and make industrial production avalable of the BTT. Enjoy !!!

 

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