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Author Topic: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?  (Read 51270 times)

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2009, 09:17:37 PM »
you could try something like this.

you might have to prime the tank to get the pressure flowing.

Jerry ;)

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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2009, 09:24:21 PM »
Okey so the thing I learned when it didn't work was that the weight was absorbed by the structure it was hanging from, just like the structure it is resting on. So therefore you cannot make use of the weight in a reversed U turn like I first though, there is only hydrostatic pressure then.
But the weight of the water is still exerting its force on the surface which keeps it from falling down.
So, if that surface was chosen to be some kind of wick or capillary structure which was also connected to the bottom for the intake of water, we should not loose the force of the water's weight as when we only used a reversed U turned siphon. Does this idea sound plausible?

I didn't use too much time to make this, the brown pipe is the capillary structure which will absorb water until filled. The smaller gray  pipe is where the water will be hanging, and thus exerting its direct weight on the pressure inside the wick. It could of course only be one pipe, or it could be many small ones, even a capillary structure but it should be able to hold more water.
Any suggestions are welcome!
Julian

Edit: It should probably 'not' be a capillary structure, nothing must block its weight from hanging.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2009, 09:20:05 PM »
Sorry for not responding, have been away for a bit, and no I've haven't made the "perpetual motion machine" yet :D
Even if it isn't its purpose, your sketch makes me think that you are using the mineral oil as a piston, and are thus using the weight of the above-resting fluid to push the water up, but then it could just as well have been water, hmm... Kinda like Hero's fountain!

But, it seem like it is perfectly possible both theoretically and practically to make the capillary structure absorb liquid at a lower point and loose it at a higher point. If we imagine a thin pipe which by its capillary action absorbs water to a certain hight. Then we make the pipe go down again before the equilibrium between the force of gravity and surface-tension arises and then slowly, while going down again increases its diameter. This would cause the force of surface-tension to weaken and possibly allow the gravity to "win" before it reaches below the bottom level as before.

This can seem a bit like a mix between  both capillary structures and siphoning   :)
But, is it possible? Is there anyone here who knows enough about surface tension to tell me this?
Bye, Julian.

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2009, 09:20:05 PM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2009, 09:01:22 PM »
Wanting a better and faster way to calculate the hight which a capillary fluid can travel, I made this simple spreadsheet, it makes the calculations using the SI units. Of course there is nothing that keeps any of you from changing it into using the American standards if you feel like it, then you could even have posted it here afterwards with the new changes!

Also Jerry, it definitely seems like you are using the mineral oil as a piston to pump the water. Since the oil is lighter than water you need something lighter than it again if you want the third fluid to stay on the top.
If not then what does it do!?!?!?  :D
Julian

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2009, 09:47:47 PM »
Hi Naboo.

the Minerial oil acts like a piston and a medium to keep the Alcohol separated from the Water so they dont mix, since the Alcohol has a lower boiling point it will create a higher pressure zone to help push the water into and out of the capillary tube.

it was just a thought that might help you find what you are looking for but I am more interested in Super Solar Cells at the moment.

Good luck.
Jerry ;)

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2009, 09:47:47 PM »
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Offline Rhead100

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2009, 02:19:51 PM »
 :o

Offline nueview

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2009, 02:38:34 PM »
hi all
maybe you need to take a look at a ram pump they were popular in the 1800's for pumping water up hill and need very little head pressure but it is required

a tank a few feet up with a large pipe out a check valve for the large pipe a tee to a small tank another tee for the large pipe with a small pipe out the tee and a gate valve that can be closed and opened very rapidly

when the gate valve opens the water flows at high velocity in the large pipe for some distance gaining mass velocity and when the gate valve is slammed shut the water pressurizes the space in the tank and the small tube that raises the water but at a reduced rate as it is much smaller when the air in the tank is fully compressed it begins to push back and closes the check valve to the head pressure tank and stops this loss of pressure forcing water up the small tube to a higher elevation due to volume pressure difference until it equalizes at which time if the gate valve is opened and the water flows the process begins again.each time there is a reduction of flow due to the water that must be waisted to get the flow volume up to speed again for the next lift but they are very efficient as pumps go

Martin

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2009, 02:38:34 PM »
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Offline dr_octo

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another very similar design with reply #37 and reply #61
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2011, 08:21:58 AM »
hi all,

i found an information on a website showing a diagram that can be a very simple demo of a perpetual motion.
the basic principle is lifting water to a higher level from the source, by using force/power from gravity alone.

This design is very similar with the diagram in reply #37 and reply #61
some pictures of a replication attempts can be found here
http://saracens.wordpress.com/2011/04/03/pompa-air-tenaga-gravitasi/

do you guys think that this simple device/principle will work?
i haven't tried to replicate it yet


Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2011, 08:39:19 PM »
Hi Octo I am so sorry that i haven't replied to your message before now! I believe i have understood the operation of the machine you show here, and it is extremely interesting! What i wanted from the beginning was something that was constructed as simple as possible in regards to its working principle, and this is exactly that.

However I believe this siphon pump will not work at all, because it actually does the opposite of its thought operation.

The key to everything here relies on the forces on the piston you have between the water intake/air surface and the air surface/water drain.
These two are disproportional, so the forces between them will be unbalanced, however in the wrong direction in my opinion.
Since the intake surface is small while the drain surface is large, the force of gravity acting on the intake water will get magnified compared to the force on the drain water; thus it will pull on the drain water, emptying the air and therefore removing the piston all together.

I tried in my head to construct the opposite ratio, but I found it hard. However I see now that it CAN be done, so i want to make a drawing of it. You basically just need to reverse the ratio between the intake and drain surface, then the water piston will work to your advantage. The best part is even though i call it a piston it shouldn't even move at all!

I hope all the best and also that you didn't take any offense in my observations or opinions.
Julian

Edit: Here is a basic sketch of what I think could work, please try to see the similarity between this and your image.
This is in 2D, so of course to get a 1:2 or 1:4 ratio etc. in 3D you would have to take into account pi squared if you made a cylinder for example. But I think the higher surface ratio the better, until you limited the actual flow of water.
And please reply!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 10:03:43 PM by Nabo00o »

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2011, 08:39:19 PM »
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Offline brian334

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2011, 11:33:54 PM »
I could be wrong, but my guess is you would get more horsepower hooking a harness up to a ant than any of these machine will ever produce.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2011, 11:49:08 PM »
I'll admit ants are very strong compared to their weight, but unless you have something useful to say like "this is the reason it won't work etc." then maybe the option of not commenting is a better one?

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2011, 11:49:08 PM »
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Offline ibpointless2

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