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Author Topic: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?  (Read 50890 times)

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 03:56:08 AM »
Unlimited power in other words....
This is one of the things that I have been searching for a lot, if it in fact could be possible.
It is of course something quite different from the siphoning process, which only requires an asymmetrical relationship of its masses. However I think both methods should be covered in this tread, and then we could see which could be most the most practical, giving the most water at the lowest cost.

What I had envisioned in order to create practical power when needed was to fill small dam or a container with the water pumped, allowing much larger amounts of power to be used when needed.
This is of course the big problem about solar as well as wind energy. If you want a reliable source of energy  then you need a huge battery bank (which is REALLY expensive), while in this case we can easily and efficiently pump water into a container at a certain height, and it doesn't need to cost that much either.


So why do you think the Russian method worked? Could it be because the momentum of the already moving water pushed it through its last passage through the surface-tension border? Maybe you need a special material or at least a specially designed structure?

Naboo

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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 04:16:07 AM »

So why do you think the Russian method worked? Could it be because the momentum of the already moving water pushed it through its last passage through the surface-tension border? Maybe you need a special material or at least a specially designed structure?

Naboo

you might have a correct assumsion there about the river pressure inflow helping the water push out.

there may be substances/particles that can help break water tension at its surface but I would have to do some research because I don't have an answer yet.

magnetohydrodynamics comes to mind but even that is a passing thought.

Jerry :)

Offline craZy

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2009, 04:39:24 AM »

 Does it matter if more of the hose is on one side than on the other of the highest point? This could mean that you simply need more hose on the drain side to increase its effect.

Naboo
[/quote]yes i believe that a longer hose may increase flow, but i dont have a longer hose at the moment to prove it

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2009, 04:39:24 AM »
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Offline drspark

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Offline drspark

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 09:35:30 AM »
Group,

The container must be sealed so there is no evaperation or very very little.

I could not get mine to drip. BUT a droplet would form at the bottom of the
wick and hang there. My cap-tube was not tiny enough to raise the alcohol
far enough, for the alcohol on the wick to become heavy enough, to break the
surface tension. What i did was raise the lower surface until the droplet as
it was forming contacted it and it oscillated like that for years. Sitting on a
window sill and the disturbance was reflected on the wall or ceiling.

The droplet would form, grow, make contact drain away repeat...

it slowly evaporated thru the unsealed lid and staopped after a few years..


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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 09:35:30 AM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 11:25:29 AM »
@drspark
That is quite a useful experiment to do, you see then what it takes to both extract and condense the liquid.
I can't find the paper at this moment, but I know read an article in Alexander Frolov's magazine "New Energy Technologies" in which an experiment was described where water was first absorbed in into a type of wick, it would then because of its large surface against the air evaporate the water making small amounts of steam which would travel down to the cool side. It was cool because as the top of the unit cooled as water did evaporate, the coolness did transfer down and caused the steam to condense again and repeat its process.
It was fairly small amounts though.

Offline broli

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 12:17:18 PM »
Nabo00o, I had some time going over your thread and it's quite an interesting one. There are so many promising ideas lately that aren't getting enough attention. This one seems also very easy to perform.

As for the theory, I never had a good grasp of siphons. They seemed to work in mysterious ways. I never gave the molecular bonding any thought really but your thread forced me to. It's very odd for water to pull on its neighbor for no apparent reason. The most interesting part is what wikipedia mentions at the end...

Quote
Surprisingly, experiments have indeed shown that siphons can operate in a vacuum, provided that the liquids are pure and degassed and surfaces are very clean.
So the only explanation left is that there is some sort of molecular bond that causes the flow to maintain. Their train analogy is a good one for a single tube. But it breaks apart when the tube either has a bigger volume on the outlet side or multiple paths like yours.

Nabo00o this project is very cheap.

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 12:17:18 PM »
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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2009, 12:23:14 PM »
I recently read on a forums about a proposed setup of consecutive cilinders with aboven them vacume chambers.

I don't know if this is possible, but even if it should require a complex system of one-way valves and air-removers, it would be very significant if a single "body" of vacume could be used to continiously pump up water, any amount.

My country is for a great part situation below sea level, so I can about water pump culture and technology, and I think it's vital to come up with a low-cost scalable pump technology to irrigate the Sahara. There's enough food in the world for all of mankind, if we conquer back land lost to climate change, in part do man's own wrongdoing (over-grazing). To some extent, water in the Sahara is water not in the ocean. Saves my country raising the water defense structures further.

So, is vacume driven pumping possible?

Else, I'm breaking my head to somehow turn the proven greater mass in those shorter tubes into accumulated pressure difference over the inlet tube. Cone shape tubes, short cut connections, throwing in the power of the sun, anything goes.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2009, 12:57:51 PM »
Heh, I wouldn't want to sit on that train! Even worse than a roller-coaster!
And yeah I've been thinking the same thing, too many topics here and in other forums should have been investigated by more people which aren't, especially by those who have enough credentials to actually conduct serious and good quality experiments, we need this in order to prove a point to the scientific community!

But as I've read on wikipedia ::)  and of course on other sources, it is really quite easy to explain this phenomena. You know air right, its very easy to compress and also to expand, or at least "easy" compeered to a liquid like water and even solids like stone  :D

The thing is that if you have a tube filled with water and both sides point down, they can't both flow down at the same time, this would have meant that some space was left over in the tube as PURE VACUUM, which needs incredible forces to be created, it would probably even collapse the entire tube if attempted.
So instead of making this vacuum, and also because water unlike air cannot be compressed (or expanded) to any considerable degree, in a pipe it will tend to act more like a long strong string than water out in free space.

Naboo
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 01:27:02 PM by Nabo00o »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2009, 12:57:51 PM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2009, 01:17:26 PM »
@Cloxxki
Well of course we can use vacuum to pump water, I think it is even the most common way to pump water on the planet! The problem is of course that once the water begins to fill the space previously being vacuum, its pressure will change and eventually reach normal atmospheric pressure. But you talked about a design which maybe didn't have these problems? Also so you know, there is a very cheap way to create a great vacuum, and it is the venturi vacuum pump. It is completely solid-state and uses the venturi-effect of accelerating liquid to create a powerful suction. If you search on youtube you can find a guy who "boils" water by creating a vacuum inside a bottle. Since the evaporation point of a liquid is decided both by its temperature and its pressure you can just as easily boil something by changing its pressure.


Btw, here's another picture. It shows that by changing the surface area and thus the volume of a pipe, it can also be used to increase the water mass flowing in it.

Edit: Also if we increase the surface-area of a pipe too much we will approach the limit to where air bubbles will enter and ruin the process, I guess that this is caused by the lack of surface tension.
Naboo

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2009, 04:00:58 PM »
@craZy
If it works like I think it is then you don't need any longer hose, you just need to portion more of the hose on the drain side than one the intake side, if this is what does it then it should work like that, although I really didn't believe that siphon could work like that....

Also here is kinda the ultimate way I figured this pump could work, with many small tubes fitted together you can increase the suction power without risking air-bubbles to enter: 

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2009, 04:00:58 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2009, 06:18:48 PM »
Cheap stab at testing your theory ...

And I think broli explained away why this may not work with the best explanation the molecular bond because there will be a firing order of sorts there will be a point if the tube is pushing more then it is pulling there will be a back fire if you will to maintain the equal state that is required for a siphon.

But a cheap way is a tube a bucket of water some tube and a t splitter with some hose clamps.

Very cheap and easy...

But my question is this why cant you continue to siphon something (regular one tube) out of a tank and put it back into a tank while dripping on to a turbine unless the movement on the surface of the water would cause a problem less the fact that evaporation would eventually occur I can not think of any reasons why such a thing would not work...

Cheap test computer fan and a tube and a bucket of water with some rubber gloves for safety.

At worst case this may win the overunity prize depending upon the definition of sustained ... More power out then in for a period of x time the time was never discussed after all I thought over unity by definition means more power out then in and a sustained over unity would be perpetual motion so is it the perpetual motion prize or the over unity prize?

I would love for heartiberlin to clarify this one for us.


Thanks for sharing guys good post.

Naboo the more outlets you make the harder it would be to keep the molecular bond. I think it is safe to say that broli has brought to us a very valid scientific point but by all means please do test.
-infringer-

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2009, 06:49:15 PM »
Thanks infringer but I do actually disagree. It might be that the molecular bond is stronger at smaller dimensions, but as I have understood it by reading on siphons it is definitely suction by pressure which causes the flow to start and maintains it.

Okey as we commonly know siphons, if you have a U shaped pipe pointing down, fill it with liquid (water) and open up both ends nothing will happen. This is because the forces of gravity on both sides is just as strong. However if one side is longer than the other and you open both sides it will flow down the longest one. This is because gravity has more mass to push on that side than on the other side, thus causing the balance to brake and begins to accelerate water in that direction.
As I said earlier, to create perfect vacuum requires very large amounts of energy, but that is what would have happened if water only flowed down on one side without the other side moving, or if both sides flowed in opposite directions.
So because of that a low pressure will instead force the remaining water in the tube to follow the first water. Also if you make the U pipe too thick air will enter and cause the water to fall out on both sides.

The standard and limiting theory (if it is true) is that only height decides how much flow there will be, it is very much like incorporating the already existing hydrostatic law to siphons. In hydrostatics shape will not change anything, even if it seems counterintuitive. The question is if that is truly the way a siphon works, or if it maybe can work in a "hydrodynamic" manner as well. But at any rate I know the experiments will ultimately teach us what that works and what that doesn't. I hope this works though ;D

Naboo

Edit: I'm not interested in the overunity price, he can save that one for someone else  :D
Neither perpetual motion or even overunity was required to win the price I think, only that you had a unit which could produce energy with the following specifications. For example if the fuel was water it shouldn't more than 10 liter a day or something like that.

Also just to make my view about the matter clear: Perpetual motion IS impossible, over unit means about the same thing and is therefore also impossible. What isn't impossible however is to find a source of energy which can power everything we need, in a cheap and abundant way, this is called 'free energy'.
It might be that this free energy will not be found with its basis in the physical world, but instead in the time dimension, although that is a completely different subject  ;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 07:30:53 PM by Nabo00o »

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2009, 07:31:13 PM »
Perhaps we should find a way to let the water do more than just lose gravity potential energy on its downflow. It forming a good vector might somehow be used to obtain a positive pressure difference, to keep the flow going.

I have posted before about the Messaih machien, which is like a point-down traffic cone spinning to pump up water. It's supposed to be way efficient at down this, perhaps because the water doesn't have leverage against the cone. Had it not spun and had a a bit of friction, the water would just fall down. Once over the top though, the water might be used in an efficient turbine to create more energy than is needed to run the pumping cone. Or just stay high, to get the darn water to the desert.

If the downward tubes would be spirals with tapered diamter, suction could be generated. But would this stop the downflow, or speed up the up flow?

Another idea to play with is a fine Archemes' screw. Large diameter. Screw material and color are vastly different from point to point, to get the Sun to help a hand.

Yet another idea. A bladder that is light or heat sensitive, and respond with expansion or schrinkage. With a closed water system, this created pressure. Let out on top at max schrinkage, let in at bottom at max expansion. The pump might run a "light switch", being some sort of sun block. If the inside of the bladder is insulated, the outside could be the active skin. Easily manipulated by altering cold and warm water current over it. No idea if such bladder could be powerful enough to be useful to gain real height in real volumes.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: The self-filling siphon, and why can't it be done?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2009, 08:59:52 PM »
The idea was that no external power source except for the fluid interaction would be necessary, the point is that the imbalance of mass causes a force to drag it in the path where the gravitation is strongest, just like in a gravitation wheel.

Almost all of your suggestions but maybe one requires some other source of energy. The exception is the cone pump which I think utilizes the centrifugal force of water to push it further up. This is not a direct way of pushing the water like the Archimedes screw for instance.

Naboo

 

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