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Author Topic: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments  (Read 285551 times)

electricme

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #675 on: October 30, 2009, 08:30:19 AM »
@all

I have been having a prob with my computer the last two days.
I have a desktop, but cannot open any programs except for 1 antivirus (which is scanning my PC at the moment) and defrag, I believe it is a DOS attack, (Denial Of Services).

I was lucky yesterday, I managed to get it running and thought I had fixed the problem, obviously I hadent.
I had to get to another PC 50 klm away to get some help for it and took the opertunity to download and print some of my PMs and forum pages, so I can keep abrest of whats hapenning here.
but I will be off air until my home PC is OK.
So unless I can get it back on air, I will be off air so to speak for at least 1 week, groan.

I was hopeing to put an effort into my stubblefield winding maching today, but unforseen events took me a different parth.
 
@tishatang,
I took a look at my post of the tuner capacitor I made, it comes up here OK on this PC.
Must be something at your end, the image is a standard .JPG and should show up for you.

A bit of feedback for you, your pencil crt drawings look lovely here, well done.

All this you are presenting is making sence, well done sir.

@mw383,
Thanks for the PMs, I will answer them when I get the DOS off my PC.

OK one more printout to go and I have to head off home.

Oh yes, I had run out of welding electrodes, got some more today in town, man, 2.5mm electrodes differ in price per packet, anywhere from $36.00 - $85 a packet, some real greed at work.

Hooroo all
jim

Bill, (Pirate) I will get on the blower to you, usual time.

 



IotaYodi

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #676 on: October 30, 2009, 01:52:57 PM »
From what Ive read old coat hangers are soft iron. You could bundle those. 
You could also try a microwave oven transformer core which is high silicon magnetic steel.  It seems finding the right location for an NS coil is the hardest part.

MW383

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #677 on: October 30, 2009, 06:27:17 PM »
Tishatang,

I have redrawn your latest sketch. Is this right? Again this is a most interesting subject.

I have completed design interpretations for the 'battery' primary itself (electrochemical, electromagnetic, physical construction aspects) Bottom line is : This is a very elegant system that effectively integrates into a simple package, various systems of quite different nature. I am very impressed. I make a living at working outside the box but this design is a real dandy.

I have a ways to go in my understanding of the things you are discussing. I have obtained text books and am engaging my brain to learn these things. Since I am more mechanical and very lightly chemical, I am really starting at the beginning electrically. I'll get it eventually.

Regards,

MW383


electricme

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #678 on: October 31, 2009, 12:00:18 AM »
@IotaUodi,

From what Ive read old coat hangers are soft iron. You could bundle those. 
You could also try a microwave oven transformer core which is high silicon magnetic steel.  It seems finding the right location for an NS coil is the hardest part.
,

If someone was to try soft iron coathangers it may work also, personally I would try getting even smaller iron wire, the more strands you could bundle tightly together the better, I suggest this if you need a big iron bolt and carnt get one. Perhaps mig welding wire cut to whatever length, feed each strand into a PVC tube to act as a mold to keep it together, then draw out all the strands and tape them up to keep them all together would be one way to make a long iron bar.
Its just a suggestion, dont even know if this would work.

Jeanna has made a stubblefield cell using several strands of iron, mabe she could shed some light on her technique.

Im back home, plowed through my PC, got rid of some antivirus I had running and its going faster now, I didnt turn it off last night so still do not know if the problem is fixed, we will see.

I have a PM to answer so I will fix that up shortly, then will make a start on my stubblefield winding machine in the shed.
I went mad, yesterday, got stuck into cutting up my shiny exercise machine lol.
 
1633 = close up of support post with center bearing
1639 = Pully reduction gearing, dont have motor v belt pully to show, gota find it.
1638 = Cross arms, have to remove peddal pusher power attatchments
1640 = square taper shaft, one on either end

I intend to attatch a socket the size of the nut on the bolt end, makes for easy application and transfer of turning force to bolt shaft when the maching runs.

The speed will be a PWM controler which I will fitt a forward and reverse switch to.
I will probably fit a ON OFF peddal switch for this purpose as I will need both hands to guide the wire as it is running. ;D

More to come, lets see how this sends off to overunity
 
jim   

electricme

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #679 on: October 31, 2009, 01:58:27 AM »
@all,

I have missgiveings to making my above suggestion.  :-\ :P
Bundling many strands of iron wire together, as the center iron, to make a stubblefield coil.

I have been thinking about this since I posted the above, and have decided to debunk my own recomendation, hmmmm you say.

My reasons for this are a genuine concern about the stability of the whole stubblefield coil assembly, during its construction phase.

Many strands of iron wire will also allow some "flex" between the iron strands, it could not be avoided, unless there was some process where it could be overcome in some manner then mabe it could be utilised later on. (I'm thing about a workaround for this).

What would occur is the flex of the iron strands as one turns the bifilar wire (Copper and Iron) over the bundled iron strands, we need to keep all the turns neat and tidy in this critical process, failing to do so will allow previous turns to drop downwards between previous turns, we dont need this.
As the bifilar wires are placed onto the former, the stresses will build, the flex becomes worse gradually until the geometery of the coil would suffer.

So I recomend no one tries the many strands of iron wire procedure, until we know more about it.

jim 

@Bill
Here is a circuit I drew up for you to have a play around with, sometimes we need to reduce a voltage to match the input voltage of a device, it could be anything. Utilising a LM317 adjustable voltage regulator and a handful of caps, and 1 resisror and a variable resistor we can achieve this.

This item can drive a low current device, even recharge a set of ni-cad cells, there is built in current protection on the LM317 adjustable regulator.

How it works,
up to 30 volts can be fed into the circuit, the caps filter out any ripples that might cause a problem to the item being used with it, the regulator (LM317) does not allow any higher voltage to pass, unless the "5 K ohm pot" is set to allow it to appear on the output leg of the IC.
If you need, say for instance, 3.7 volts on the output, 560ohms or slightly higher would do. Soldering that resistor in circuit "crow bars" the output to that voltage, no matter how high the voltage you feed into it.
Put a heat sink on the LM317 to keep heat to a safe level, as the excess voltage has to be sent somewhere, so it is designed to get red of the waist as heat.

1670 = main circuit, plenty of these on the internet.
1666 = where I got this one from

I have a habbit of buying heeps of electronic KITTs from JAYCAR electronics, I have about 10 waiting to put together. ;)

jim

jeanna

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #680 on: October 31, 2009, 02:17:43 AM »
Hi Jim,

Quote
So I recommend no one tries the many strands of iron wire procedure, until we know more about it.

umm.. but the way we find out is to try it out, isn't it?  ;)

In the groups of folks making bedini motors, there is a method to stabilize the clump of sticks.
Most use some epoxy.
Once, I used a drinking straw, but that is a little small in diameter, however it worked really well. It gave me the advantage that I could remove the core from the inside of the coil.

Pirate has described pretty thoroughly how he epoxied his nails into a stable core for his bedini.

I think that description is in the bedini no rotor thread from jonnydavro.

Have fun with your bicycle... don't pedal too fast! ;D

jeanna

MW383

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #681 on: October 31, 2009, 02:20:43 AM »
Electrime,

I also have misgivings on my own bundled wire approach. I was literally using wire from a coil that I straightened out. I was able to get it bundled via simple fixturing but I do not have a clean round/straight geometry thus winding of primary too sloppy. Perhaps if I used proper rod stock this would have been better. The chap wanting to use coat hangers is probably a better way to cheaply bundle. One could just cut the long-straight lower horizontal piece of the hanger and use a bunch of them. Just do not attempt what I did. Jeanna has more proper rods and I would think this would work ok too.

I have after very careful consideration decided to stay crude and more in line with a period replica of the construction. I am rebuilding using the old parts I described in previous posts. I think with some basic construction principles this thing will still function so long as the ground mystery aspects are figured out. I remain very incouraged by what Tishatang presents.

Regards,

MW383

jeanna

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #682 on: October 31, 2009, 02:38:46 AM »
... but I do not have a clean round/straight geometry thus winding of primary too sloppy. Perhaps if I used proper rod stock this would have been better. ...

I have after very careful consideration decided to stay crude and more in line with a period replica of the construction. ...
.... I remain very incouraged by what Tishatang presents.

I am also encouraged by what tishatsang has said.

I took a welding class (adult ed) for 2 semesters.
There was a propane forge and I made a forged hook set for a barn door kind of thing.
That metal no longer holds any magnetic polarization.
I had a permanent magnet stuck onto one end of part of it and it never remembered its polarity. It has become remarkably soft.

In Prof Lewin's wonderful physics class, he explains about the process of heating and hitting iron to remove its magnetic polarity.

The pity is that even tho I was doing stubblefield coils at the time of that class, I never got a piece of plain round iron to stick into the fire...

Every once in a while you can find a wrought iron shop.
They would have a piece of round iron that they could heat and hit and sell you. I am sure it would be very cheap, too.

jeanna

electricme

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #683 on: October 31, 2009, 02:51:36 AM »
@all,
I have decided to really get into posting, as I simply dont know if my computer fix will last, lets hope it wont muck up.

God has given me an ability to see in my mind mechanical objects which I want to make, it's uncany this, I can see down to quite small details sometimes. I don't actually see a vision of the item, but I can visualise it without any effort.
 
I have had my thinking cap on for a while now, I spoke to Bill about the below item this morning, it's something I have been toying around with for a couple of years now, and relates directly to making Stubbifield Coils.

This is a wire winding machine, it would be quite simple to make and so I post the drawing here for anyone to have a go with it.

Many years ago, when the insulation was in its infantity, wire makers had to wind a silk or cotton thread over the bare wires so they would not short out, this was before TRS (Tough Rubber Sheathing) which was superceeded by more and better insulation that industry required. These days you can get heat insulated wires, for all purposes and situations.

So how does one wind literally miles of cotton onto a single strand of copper or iron wire?

Actually it is quite simple to do, but you need to make a jig with a revolving disk with a hollow center mounted on a hollow shaft. The hard bit is getting the wire feed and the cotton reels spinning physically around the wire as it is drawn through the machine. Both must be in sinc so there is an even coverage of cotton layed down, as the wire is drawn through the center of this jig assembly.
To do this, we can use 2 PWM circuits, each is setup initally, independently adjusting each drive motors RPM until you see a very even thin layer of cotton being applied over the wire as it is drawn through the shaft center.

You will need to set this up on a table, with a feed spool, fitted with a constant slip/friction brake tensioner.
The other end the wire is wound onto a blank spool, a DC motor is fitted to this side of the works.

The machine is setup with an bare spool of copper or iron wire, the free end is threaded into the hollow shaft which revolvs and attatched to the empty spool.

Next you slip on 5 spools of "overlocker" cotton thread.

Draw the thread to the side of the bare wire and clamp the cotton ends some way so they don't slip around the wire.

Start both motors together, the wire is drawn slowly through the machine, the rotating 5 bobbins , now must spin vertically around the outside of the wire as it is being drawn through the jig assembly.

As it starts off, you will see several gaps between the cotton as it is applied, to close the gaps, just increase the speed of the cotton reels, if this is going too fast, just slow down the wire as it is drawn through the jig.
Either adjustment will work OK.

Keep an eye out for creepage, this will show up as rises on the cotton being applied, or as gaps where the cotton has not been layed on the wire fast enough, what we need is an an even layer applied to the wire, no hi bits or exposed bits.

OK there is another thing to watch out for, diferent wire thicknesses.
Because of the difference of wire circumferences, each application will need to be setup for that particular size wire, take note of the pot position settings, write them down after doing some test runs, this will give you enough data to be able to re-setup your winding jig quite quickly.


Have I ever seen this working? NO, only in my mind, but it gives us all a method to wind our own cotton insulation on our own iron or bare copper wires.

Here are my drawings below
jim   

1657 = whole drawing of machine
1658 = overlocker cotton spools
1659 = Cotton spool plate holder seen placed flat, with 5 pegs
           the spools are sliped onto the pegs
1660 = Plan view of spool plate as seen
1661 = Side view (elevation) of jig and drive assembly
1662 = Takeup of cotton covered wire left side of jig
1663 = Take OFF reel of bare wire, not insulated on a spool

A resistance drag could be made of two flat sheets of wood with a spring and butterfly tensioner arrangement to put some slight tension on the bare drawn wire, or a drum brake made.
   

MW383

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #684 on: October 31, 2009, 03:03:37 AM »
Bill,

You are my choice for winding mechanisation for when we have everything figured out and need to mass produce! I was once in my family CNC machining business and was the turning center guru (CNC lathes). So I tend to see things in feeds and speeds. Assuming a given rpm, a corresponding and optimal feed rate is applied. I see your system accomplishing this.

I like it!

, MW383

tishatang

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #685 on: October 31, 2009, 04:03:58 AM »
@MW383
Thanks for cleaning up my drawing.  I realized late last night that I made a mistake and the parallel circuit won't work without the addition of blocking diodes.  It will work like it is for an antennae and ground as shown.  I am used to thinking radio.  What we need to do is put a diode on the positive rod pointing towards the tank circuit.  When can also put a diode on the negative rod pointing towards the tank circuit.  This will isolate the circuit so it can freewheel and do its thing.  Without the diode, any high voltage would simply bleed off into ground which is at a low potential.  This will let currents in but not out. 

@electric me
I get your photo now.  I was missing some java plug-in or something.  Your cotton winding machine looks like a miniature version of the big cable winding machines they use to wind the long support cables for suspension bridges.

@all
Here are some helpful hints re construction of the   EB.  Your best friend will be the local building supply, or maybe a local building construction company.  For the core, you want large J bolts they use to put into concrete forms.  They are in the form of large J.  They come from about 8 inches in length to maybe 16 inches in length.  They are black iron, no plating, a thin coat of oil to prevent rusting.  You should be able to get them up to at least 5/8 in diameter.  They have a long thread on one end and the nuts and washer for them should be laying in a bin next to them.  They might have some in the shape of an L, saving the need to hacksaw off the little part of the J, to make it an L shape.  The L with a washer on one end, and a washer and nut on the other end and you have your core.  May not be the most mild of iron?  Test it with a steel file.  You can file a mark easy on mild iron.  Put file marks on various pieces of old metal around your shop and get the feel for relative hardness.  When you go to the bldg supply, make a small mark on the L bolt to judge its relative hardness.  If it seems hard, you can heat it to red with an acetylene torch in the hopes it will make it softer.  This will also remove any residual magnetism from the mfg process of making the bolts.

In the same dept there will be small rolls of very soft iron wire.  This is used for tying rebar together.  Ask some one where the rebar tying wire is.  This is the perfect wire for making the iron coil.

It is important to have wood ends and natural insulation between the bolt core and the first winding, and between every layer of coils.  You can use fiberglass cloth and resin if want.  I will explain all of this more thoroughly later.  I believe serendipity played a role with Stubblefield, the patent office and his investors to end up with what he did. 

If you could find a small cardboard tube that your core bolt can slide into, would help for experiments but not necessary.  That way, after assembly of the coils, you can slide the bolt in partway.  This will change the inductance value of the coils, thereby giving you the ability to tune to a wide band of frequencies.

Hope all this helps.
tishatang

electricme

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #686 on: October 31, 2009, 03:30:25 PM »
@all,

A little off topic, but I think I should present a link to some disturbing tidings.
I just received this email, which is an excellent source of information.

If people in America are alone in thinking their gov will act in a traitorous way, don't worry, our very own Australian gov is also heading down the same sorry path, click on this link to read for yourselves, how we are all going to be in this mess together.
Sinage day is in December this year folks

http://www.moriah.com.au/textarchive/copenhagen-2009.htm

I think there might be about 45 days of freedom as we all know it before the poison pen pushers sign away our freedoms.
They might try and control us, but they carnt control our spirit


jim


Pirate88179

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #687 on: November 01, 2009, 06:59:48 AM »
@all,

I have missgiveings to making my above suggestion.  :-\ :P
Bundling many strands of iron wire together, as the center iron, to make a stubblefield coil.

I have been thinking about this since I posted the above, and have decided to debunk my own recomendation, hmmmm you say.

My reasons for this are a genuine concern about the stability of the whole stubblefield coil assembly, during its construction phase.

Many strands of iron wire will also allow some "flex" between the iron strands, it could not be avoided, unless there was some process where it could be overcome in some manner then mabe it could be utilised later on. (I'm thing about a workaround for this).

What would occur is the flex of the iron strands as one turns the bifilar wire (Copper and Iron) over the bundled iron strands, we need to keep all the turns neat and tidy in this critical process, failing to do so will allow previous turns to drop downwards between previous turns, we dont need this.
As the bifilar wires are placed onto the former, the stresses will build, the flex becomes worse gradually until the geometery of the coil would suffer.

So I recomend no one tries the many strands of iron wire procedure, until we know more about it.

jim 

@Bill
Here is a circuit I drew up for you to have a play around with, sometimes we need to reduce a voltage to match the input voltage of a device, it could be anything. Utilising a LM317 adjustable voltage regulator and a handful of caps, and 1 resisror and a variable resistor we can achieve this.

This item can drive a low current device, even recharge a set of ni-cad cells, there is built in current protection on the LM317 adjustable regulator.

How it works,
up to 30 volts can be fed into the circuit, the caps filter out any ripples that might cause a problem to the item being used with it, the regulator (LM317) does not allow any higher voltage to pass, unless the "5 K ohm pot" is set to allow it to appear on the output leg of the IC.
If you need, say for instance, 3.7 volts on the output, 560ohms or slightly higher would do. Soldering that resistor in circuit "crow bars" the output to that voltage, no matter how high the voltage you feed into it.
Put a heat sink on the LM317 to keep heat to a safe level, as the excess voltage has to be sent somewhere, so it is designed to get red of the waist as heat.

1670 = main circuit, plenty of these on the internet.
1666 = where I got this one from

I have a habbit of buying heeps of electronic KITTs from JAYCAR electronics, I have about 10 waiting to put together. ;)

jim

Jim:

Thank you my friend.  When I get some time and don't have this deadline I am under, I will have a go at this.  This could be a very useful thing for me, as you well know.

I really appreciate this.

Bill

electricme

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #688 on: November 01, 2009, 09:48:45 AM »

In Prof Lewin's wonderful physics class, he explains about the process of heating and hitting iron to remove its magnetic polarity.

jeanna

Very interresting this topic, my Dad said to me 50 odd years ago, if you want to magnetise a iron bar, grab it and strike a rock very hard with it, and it will become magnetised.
So I did do this, and it worked, before it wouldn't hold a paper clip, after wards it did.

jim

electricme

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Re: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments
« Reply #689 on: November 01, 2009, 10:11:48 AM »
@All,
If people want to make an iron core with lots of short lengths of iron wire, then go for it.
I just didn't know if there was a way to stiffen the wire with a glue/hardener etc.

If it works better than a steel bolt, no worries.

jim