Author Topic: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments (Read 287199 times)

electricme · « **Reply #495 on:** August 24, 2009, 07:01:42 AM »

@ Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on August 24, 2009, 05:55:00 AM

Great jim,
Of course I was not referring to you being missing. It just seemed that everyone's enthusiasm dried up.
you might not be around then.

thanks,
jeanna

Understandable about the enthusasm drying up, no worries, I'm not letting it go to rest.
I didn't think to include my single cell plate assembly in the readings.
Here they are
Voltage = 0.44volts

OK I have a MOV file for you to look at
1st part of it shows the waveform from my series setup
2nd part shows the waveform of my single cell setup.

jim

jdcmusicman · « **Reply #496 on:** August 24, 2009, 10:04:35 PM »

@ Jeanna

I am still here lol ....I just been really busy , will have some more readings tomorrow ...

I have 2 setups in the ground
2 setups in planters ....

I haven't given up , aint planning on quitting on it either ..
This stuff excites me , it maybe low power but hey its pretty much free power...I am planning on doing a stubblefield coil to soon ..

Thanks Jdcmusicman

DreamThinkBuild · « **Reply #497 on:** August 24, 2009, 10:54:31 PM »

@Jeanna,

Please do not get discouraged, only the garden is drying up not my enthusiasm. Lots to do before winter arrives. We need some way of having a synchronized collection mechanism so we can compare everyones data. I have been feeding the EB into the computers sound recorder and have been getting some interesting data. Feeding the voltage through a 1ohm shunt then using a 30db gain filter you get some strange current readings. The current has spiky square waves throughout and sounds like noisy motor or electrical equipment running, popping/sparking on and off. Voltage appears as a distorted 60hz AC wave and has that distinctive 60hz hum when you listen to it. I have the files but they are too large to post, compression would degrade the signal(32bit floating point).

Not sure if you have the NEETS manuals but Module 9 is a good read:

http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/14181.pdf

Grab the whole series
http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/

Also
http://www.whatcircuits.com/lc-resonance-frequency-calculator/

jeanna · « **Reply #498 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:06:58 AM »

OK jdc and DreamTB, I will do my best to not be discouraged.

I am sure the design must remain simple.

The idea to run it through your computer is great for you to do.
It is kind of like my stubblefield gens on the other EER. I have a plain one and that is what I report here. The other is interesting if I can explain what it means to people, so really it is for me and my research.

Here is the problem as I see it:
If it is a difficult thing to get 12 people who claim enthusiasm to pound a copper pipe and a zinc roof nail into the ground and stick wire on either end and submit a daily reading... which it has proved to be, how on earth do you expect them to do something actually complicated?

I will try to keep my chin up.

Thanks for coming forward today both of you,

jeanna

electricme · « **Reply #499 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:13:51 AM »

@ DreamThinkBuild

Quote from: DreamThinkBuild on August 24, 2009, 10:54:31 PM

We need some way of having a synchronized collection mechanism so we can compare everyones data. I have been feeding the EB into the computers sound recorder and have been getting some interesting data. Feeding the voltage through a 1ohm shunt then using a 30db gain filter you get some strange current readings. The current has spiky square waves throughout and sounds like noisy motor or electrical equipment running, popping/sparking on and off. Voltage appears as a distorted 60hz AC wave and has that distinctive 60hz hum when you listen to it. I have the files but they are too large to post, compression would degrade the signal(32bit floating point).

Not sure if you have the NEETS manuals but Module 9 is a good read:

http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/14181.pdf

Grab the whole series
http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/

Also
http://www.whatcircuits.com/lc-resonance-frequency-calculator/

Good idea this, please let me know more about how you record your data.

A quick circuit too please, showing the bridge etc.

Wilby has been making a web page to display our readings in real time, and I need to get back to him shortly about this, it might be far easier to send an audio signal than a video signal, it uses less bandwidth.

I have a registered copy of NCH Wavepad, I assume I could use to record the waveforms in real time, I havent done this before so I will check it out first.

I will make up the circuit below and get back to all shortly.

jim

jeanna · « **Reply #500 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:55:41 AM »

I submit that THAT is not simple.
I do not know how to go about it and I think a lot of people will be reluctant to do anything with their sound cards that can be hit by or attract lightning.

Is the reason people fell away that it was too simple?
I would like to see full participation in a very simple low cost (pipe, nail, hookup wire, meter) and for those with scopes an extra bonus from the wave on top of the basic dmm results. After we do that for a while and it is successful (participation) we can add to it.

I think the more scopes the better for this, but I submit it should not be necessary.

My scope restricts me to certain pulses per second by changing resolution in certain jumps. I guess it is standard, but I don't know.

I have the ability to record dB but when I asked why I would use that nobody answered except xee who said forget it use the peak to peak.

So, where is this going?
At this moment I have 2 more hours of light.
Jim, if you could zip outside and report back with something even if you will refine it later, I could follow and give my report. Then there will be 2 from opposite ends but simultaneous.
I did that with Altrez for a while, but he has disappeared.

jeanna

IotaYodi · « **Reply #501 on:** August 25, 2009, 03:53:09 AM »

Quote

The current has spiky square waves throughout and sounds like noisy motor or electrical equipment running, popping/sparking on and off. Voltage appears as a distorted 60hz AC wave and has that distinctive 60hz hum when you listen to it

Your soundcard converts the analog signal to a digital signal. Standard windows soundcards are poor at sample rate and bit depth. The 60hz hum is probably a ground loop problem because of the way its setup,or you dont have a dedicated circuit with star grounding. Im thinking a pulsed dc earth current going straight into a standard analog input is going to give erroneous signals because of the AD conversion. Using a 24 bit spdif soundcard input may be better but you may still have the same problem with conversion. This may be why your having the popping on and off because of the pulsed dc..

electricme · « **Reply #502 on:** August 25, 2009, 04:00:44 PM »

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 02:55:41 AM

I submit that THAT is not simple.
I do not know how to go about it and I think a lot of people will be reluctant to do anything with their sound cards that can be hit by or attract lightning.

Is the reason people fell away that it was too simple?
I would like to see full participation in a very simple low cost (pipe, nail, hookup wire, meter) and for those with scopes an extra bonus from the wave on top of the basic dmm results. After we do that for a while and it is successful (participation) we can add to it.

I think the more scopes the better for this, but I submit it should not be necessary.

My scope restricts me to certain pulses per second by changing resolution in certain jumps. I guess it is standard, but I don't know.

I have the ability to record dB but when I asked why I would use that nobody answered except xee who said forget it use the peak to peak.

So, where is this going?
At this moment I have 2 more hours of light.
Jim, if you could zip outside and report back with something even if you will refine it later, I could follow and give my report. Then there will be 2 from opposite ends but simultaneous.
I did that with Altrez for a while, but he has disappeared.

jeanna

I read you suggestion 11.55pm tonight, sorry J, we got to work out a better way if we need to make simutanious testing.
I wil PM you with a suggestion.

I don't know if you were refering to my circuit, if you are, it is simple.

I got about a meter (3 feet) of figure 8 speaker wire, soldered 2 aligator clip to one end of the Fig 8, ie clip on the POS, and another clip on the NEG.

went about 6inches from there and cut it through.
Soldered a 5K ohm pot on the positave wire

Went to the other end and soldered a small microphone jack plug onto the leads, end pin is the +, the earth neg I soldered to the earth of the plug.

Now I can record to my PC sound card what the meter (DMM) reads.
******************************************************

Today I hooked my webcam to my scope and tried displaying the images through my headless laptop, it worked.
********************************************************
Got my geni started, if you decide to look at the video, turn down your sound, it is very loud

jim

nueview · « **Reply #503 on:** August 25, 2009, 07:01:22 PM »

hi all

i think there is interest but most are watching what goes on i am on another project but still look in each day the sound recording seems to be a good idea from my point of view it will track audible signals and could give some real insight as far as energy propogation in the ground as was said before some sounds like motors and a normal house grid is connected to ground so it could be possible to eliminate sum of the signal with a few simple tests like turning of some appliances or circuit breakers while testing your signal it may help to find some purer waves that may be filtered and used to better advantage.
Martin

jeanna · « **Reply #504 on:** August 25, 2009, 08:52:11 PM »

Quote

I don't know if you were refering to my circuit, if you are, it is simple.

I got about a meter (3 feet) of figure 8 speaker wire, soldered 2 aligator clip to one end of the Fig 8, ie clip on the POS, and another clip on the NEG.

went about 6inches from there and cut it through.
Soldered a 5K ohm pot on the positave wire

Went to the other end and soldered a small microphone jack plug onto the leads, end pin is the +, the earth neg I soldered to the earth of the plug.

Now I can record to my PC sound card what the meter (DMM) reads.

Yes, Jim I was referring to that.

It may be simple enough to stick a microphone to an ear, but to put it to your sound card is not. But MY objection is that I do not want that to be required for our study.

I love the idea where we all do the very same thing Copper one end Zinc coated iron nail (not aluminum) on the other end with DMM and or scope in the middle.

Then we will have something. and if we can manage to make a simultaneous test, we will be really having something.

Beyond that everyone who wants to can make modifications. But those mods should be to a similar setup and probably not the same.
So, I think you and a few others will do sound, some others will use different materials, but all of us must do one thing that is exactly the same at the same time or this test is meaningless.

That is why I want it to be really simple. You have to be able to grab your tools run outside and take the measurements at the same time every day and then go to the store or movies or what your life is requiring. If this is too complex, life will get in the way.

I hope this makes sense...
And,
I hope we can do this. I think it has a great potential.

jeanna

MileHigh · « **Reply #505 on:** August 26, 2009, 01:05:27 AM »

Hi Jenna,

I glanced a few times at this thread and just have a comment or two, you may have even heard them before.

My suggestion is to also record your power measurement every day in addition to your waveforms. Perhaps a 10 Mohm 10-turn pot would do the trick for you. You first set up your waveform display. I believe it also gives you the RMS voltage on the display, which is perfect. You have your waveform set up and then connect the 10 Mohm potentiometer across the leads and then turn the potentiometer until the RMS voltage drops by one half. Then you make a quick measurement of the resistance setting on the pot and record that. The maximum output power that day is then the lower RMS voltage measurement squared divided my the resistance setting on the pot. It will probably measure somewhere between microwatts and miliwatts. The measurement of the pot setting is a big bonus, that is giving you the output impedance of your earth battery. That is a very important measurement of the relative strength of the power source. The lower the output impedance the better.

Anyway, you may find a corelation between the relative moisture in the soil and the output power and impedance measurements for your earth battery. Larger buried anode and cathode setups should also give you more power generation and lower output impedances.

The only thing that I am not sure of is the right value for the potentiometer, I would imagine it is somewhere between 100 Kohm and 10 Mohm.

Anyway, don't let me disrupt anybody's projects but if there are keeners out there these measurements are really informative and tell you about the state of being of your earth batteries.

MileHigh

IotaYodi · « **Reply #506 on:** August 26, 2009, 02:06:08 AM »

That is excellent Milehigh!

Whats your suggestion on the pot? Standard runs from about .5 v to 1 volt

IotaYodi · « **Reply #507 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:05:34 AM »

Camera cell phone into a webcam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar2-GILSg_c&NR=1

Interesting camera cell phone into wireless oscilloscope.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrOs2TiyGy4

MileHigh · « **Reply #508 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:17:26 AM »

Iota:

If you experiment with discrete resistors and observe the RMS voltage (should be a true RMS meter) drops that will give you a feel for what's going on. Don't be surprised if a 10K resistor reduces the waveform to almost nothing and don't worry about it either. It just means that you have to try a much higher value resistor.

Keeping it simple, suppose that you find after measurements on a few setups over a few days that on average about a 1 Mohm resistor makes the RMS voltage drop by about one half. In that case the "Cadillac" solution would be to get a 10-turn wire-type 5 Mohm potentiometer. There are also little PCB-mount 10-turn potentiometers. They look like little blue boxes and you can adjust them with a jeweler's screwdriver and are much less expensive.

Perhaps another option would be to have a few different ordinary single-turn potentiometers. The only reason for using a 10-turn pot is to get more measurement accuracy to detect subtle trends. Just some ideas.

MileHigh

jeanna · « **Reply #509 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:47:17 AM »

Milehigh
I am not sure I can read less than millivolts.
I think rms is not relevant because this is not sinusoidal at all. If it is then it is not natural and we must ignore it.

Thanks,
If you want to join us, I will be delighted to see the results you have on your special one with the pot and
much more interested in the one that is done simultaneously with a scope (if you have one) on 2 probes one copper and one zinc covered iron.

I will not be coming inside, but I am not about to make this more complicated than it already is.
I have 2 stubblefield coils added to each end of 2 probes and that is what interests me. (My personal interest)
I am reporting on the plain ones for the sake of the datalogging experiment.

thank you,

jeanna

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Author Topic: Earth Electrical Energy Datalogging Experiments (Read 287199 times)

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