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Author Topic: Circumventing the Lentz law  (Read 12871 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Circumventing the Lentz law
« on: March 01, 2006, 12:52:02 AM »
copied from the jlnlabs yahoogroup:
Subject: Re: [jlnlabs] Re: Circumventing the Lenz? slavek.krepelka@...
 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/ttf2/fields8.htm

Hi Ron,

Indeed,

Fig 1 has both, blue and red plate equal fingered with fingers aligned
square opposite each other. That is the rotor. The snake has to be
retained by what would be the housing as stator. To get the flux across
the tips of the fingers, you have to have:

1) At least twice the distance between the plates everywhere except the
tips of the fingers, which ideally means that the bar magnet in the
center has to be at least twice as long as is the distance between the
fingertips.

2) The plates better be fairly heavy, something like 5/16" plate or
heavier on the scale of a car alternator. But this depends on the
strength of your permanent magnet and I do not have the technical
expertise to give you some good numbers. I over design, when I do my
experimenting.

I can only recommend you to take apart some busted car alternator, have
a good look at its ratios of materials and go from there.

Fig 2

has only one rotating plate, the red. The reason is, that if you rotate
fingers against a flat plate, you still get the magnetic flux across the
gap only where the finger tips are the nearest to the plate, as long as
they are not saturated.

If you are attempting to build a home generator, you have to take into
consideration the frequency. This means that you have to see what would
be the RPMs of the source motor and design the coil arrangement, i.e.
the quantity of coils at their function per circle. My former patent
application may show you that there are two ways to handle the polarity
frequency in alternators. One is to alternate the induction back and
forth across each coil, which gives you a full alternation per coil and
which is the standard way of doing it. My design as I have concocted it
on my brush less alternator (see patents) actually alternates only
across each coil, but not between the coils, so it gives 1 alternation
per 2 coils.

This depends on how you wind the coils.

You can go around this nowadays by rectifying the output current to DC
and using an inverter to produce exactly what you want in AC, Volts and
frequency, but it is somewhat costly.

You should also understand that unless you have a fairly constant
frequency power source for an AC motor powered from the utilities, you
need to somehow achieve constant RPMs on your drive motor. This may
require to either use a small combustion engine with a constant speed
governor (an airplane model motor might do), or use a DC motor with
constant RPMs at whatever specified input voltage, which you can
regulate by a resistor.

My kind regards, Slavek

iron1of1 wrote:
>
> Hello Slavek,
>
> I am not clear on a couple of points...
> Are the blue and red plates equally fingered?
> Do the fingers line directly across from each other?
> The two plates rotate but not the 'snake'?
>
> Regards,
>
> Ron
>
 

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Circumventing the Lentz law
« on: March 01, 2006, 12:52:02 AM »

Offline Clara Listensprechen

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2006, 05:11:53 AM »
Seems to me that some kind of feedback thru a bucking coil should limit RPMs from being too fast, maybe also workas a booster should RPMs be too slow.  Need some sort of closed loop feedback controller there.

Offline penguin hood

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 04:22:45 PM »
I did read the "Field 8" document from Slavek Krepelka and the two patents mentioned there.
The authors from both two patents, have builded prototypes that generate electricity without the counter torque from the electric load. Both two patents are a demostration that the Lenz's Law can be circumvented. However any author does reference to overunity but there are something different and therefore interesting, never the electromagnetism theory talks about the Lenz's Law as an unwanted and avoidable effect.
In the first patent shows only measurements from output electric power but not the input mechanic power, then the COP is unknown.
From second patent the author says that (at least I understood so): from electric power generated by an ideal (to simplicity) conventional generator, the 50% of power flows to the load while another 50% is useless power by Lenz's effect, then COP = 0.5 (or COP < 0.5 on a real generator). Again in ideal terms, the invention circumvent Lenz then COP = 1 (or COP tend to unity on a real generator so builded).
 
Then two propositions:
-If the Lenz's Law is one consequence of the Principle of Conservation of Energy then that prototypes are overunity.
-But if Lenz's Law is unrelated to the Principle of Conservation of Energy then the principle still is valid and only the efficiency is better by eliminate an unwanted effect.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 04:41:39 PM by penguin hood »

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 04:22:45 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 05:11:05 PM »
Why not consider using a differently wound coil for power generation (in a standard alternator).  Instead of using a coil that is wound one layer at a time over another horizontally; wouldn't a coil that is stacked vertically (rather than horizontally) provide less of an electromagnet drag as power is drawn from the coil?  In a standard alternator, the coil is aimed directly at the magnet source.  So when the opposing magnetic field is formed when current is used from the coil, it creates an opposing magnetic field that is directly aimed the source, creating more drag.  With a coil that is verically stacked, the electromagnet that is formed when current is drawn from the coil is 'aimed away' (vertically) from the magnet source for the most part.  Here is a picture of a Tesla style coil that is vertically stacked and may be a better choice for power generation to avoid the counter drag normally associated with an alternator or generator.

Offline Liberty

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 05:43:05 PM »
A way to use Lentz's Law to our advantage???

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 05:43:05 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2006, 08:20:56 PM »
Hi,

Could you try it in practice? It would involve making a one-layer thick (thickness=wire diameter, right?)  "vertical" coil from enameled copper wire of say AWG#18 or #22 and secure the turns with superglue or simple electric tape.  Then bring this flat coil near to a strong Neo magnet fixed to a pendulum. Then count the number of swings and then short circuit the coil ends and watch again the number of swings.
It would be good to compare this flat coil to a normal solenoid coil too in this same pendulum test.

Regards
Gyula

Offline Liberty

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 09:10:18 PM »
Hi,

Could you try it in practice? It would involve making a one-layer thick (thickness=wire diameter, right?)  "vertical" coil from enameled copper wire of say AWG#18 or #22 and secure the turns with superglue or simple electric tape.  Then bring this flat coil near to a strong Neo magnet fixed to a pendulum. Then count the number of swings and then short circuit the coil ends and watch again the number of swings.
It would be good to compare this flat coil to a normal solenoid coil too in this same pendulum test.

Regards
Gyula

Normally I could test it out, but I am in the process of moving and don't have my shop available to me at this time.  (Everything in boxes still...).  Perhaps one of you out there that have the equipment handy to do it with, could try it out.  I think that it will still have some Lentz resistance, but I think that the opposing field should be less as compared to a horizontal winding that is 'aimed' at the magnet source. 

Ideally a single layer coil would offer the least amount of opposing field, while more layers made vertically behind it, may make more Lentz resistance?? (or maybe not?).  I know that it should result in a higher voltage output with more length of coil.  More poles using a single layer Tesla spiral coil would probably keep Lentz resistance minimal and maximize voltage.  One would just have to try it and see.  It is similar to the axial alternator method used in wind powered generators, but the coils that they use are not carefully wound in a vertical spiral, but more of a oval with horizontal windings.  There should probably be a 'hole' in the center of the spiral Tesla coil for better output performance.

Liberty

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 09:10:18 PM »
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Offline penguin hood

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2006, 10:06:16 PM »
The following diagram represent a transformer able to circumventing the Lentz Law according to my interpretation of: http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/ttf2/fields8.htm
I guess, the function principle is the same than motor explained there.

Notes:
-Two ferromagnetic cores (blue): Primary Core and Secondary Core.
-Two windings (red): Coil I and Coil II.
-The primary winding do generate the magnetic Flux I.
-The magnetic Flux II is generated by load current circulating through the Coil II
-The gap I and gap II avoid that magnetic Flux II pass to Primary Core
-The gap III serve to prevent splitting of the magnetic flux I, so the magnetic Flux I only pass through Coil II.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 10:20:38 PM by penguin hood »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2006, 11:51:04 AM »
Hi 'penguin hood',

I think it is an interesting and of course unusual idea but I would incourage you to assemble and test it if you can! 
Krepelka's idea on circumventing Lenz has been a topic in Naudin Yahoo group too and his idea got several "attacks".  He has not shown practical evidence of his ideas though but he 'defended' his ideas in paper.  Nevertheless, I consider it a worth-a-try idea and when later i have more free time for tinkering I will certainly test one of his arrangements.

The difference between a motor ala Krepelka and your transformer may count as a drawback or may not: only experimentation can reveal. I mean in case of the motor one magnetic circuit is able to move physically away from the other magnetic circuit (rotor-stator) and inherently reduces further the Lenz effect (but of course the main Lenz effect reduction should come from the separated two magnetic circuits by the design and this is nicely included in your transformer).

I would consider using laminations as a core (for instance using the I shape from the normal E-I shaped transformer cores) or ferrite cores salvaged from burnt line output transformers of CRT monitors or television receivers. These latter are usually C shaped cores put into a closed rectangular form. Maybe it is worth visiting a monitor repair service near to you to ask for such burnt line output transformers.

Regards
Gyula

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2006, 11:51:04 AM »
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Offline penguin hood

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2006, 12:16:34 AM »
Thanks for the reply and recommends, gyulasun.

I agree your comments about the affirmations of Slavek Krepelka.
I think that perhaps from Faraday, Tesla and who knows how many has this idea before me. Anyway I want try it before or after.

I guess that my arrangement is really two weakly coupled coils rather than a electric power transformer. Is important note that the relation for electric power transformer V1/V2 = N1/N2 = I2/I1 is not valid anymore for this case. See my equations below.
An electric power transformer is engineered searching a perfect superposition between the primary and secondary magnetic paths.
The secondary winding can demand so much energy from primary winding as magnetic energy is distributed across the whole core.
By effect of the energy transference between primary winding-core and core-secondary winding, the load current is reflected back to primary winding. 

But if the magnetic paths are differents then the secondary winding demand energy only from the core volume where the magnetic fluxes interact.
Therefore, the load current is less reflected back to primary winding, but also the primary winding is putting less energy per unit time.
In theory, not seem a good option to use in electric power.

Quote
I mean in case of the motor one magnetic circuit is able to move physically away from the other magnetic circuit (rotor-stator) and inherently reduces further the Lenz effect

Also I wonder if the magnetic rotating disc does some difference.
The magnetic rotating disc is fundamental on the "Space Power Homopolar Generator" from Paramahamsa Tewari. The better overunity proof until now, for me (if is true). Due has a prototype, experimental confirmation and a nicely electromagnetic theory to explain that it is possible to extract energy from vacuum.
But Krepelka only does reference to magnetic paths. As he wrote:"does not handle anything which is not handled by the contemporary commercial generator design open cores. It only handles the same in a more sensible manner".
It is not convincing....As you said, only experimentation can reveal.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 12:44:21 AM by penguin hood »

jake

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2006, 08:25:22 PM »
Quote
Why not consider using a differently wound coil for power generation (in a standard alternator).  Instead of using a coil that is wound one layer at a time over another horizontally; wouldn't a coil that is stacked vertically (rather than horizontally) provide less of an electromagnet drag as power is drawn from the coil?

Not just any shape of coil and orientation works the way you want it to.  No matter what the orientation, as long as a conductor is "cutting" lines of flux, there will be current generated.  But if the conductor is in the wrong orientation, the current may flow across the conductor (like an eddy current), and not along the conductor the way you need it to to get current flow through the conductor.

Also, it is advantageous for only one side of the coil to be passing through the field at a time, because if the other side is passing through a field it can be generating exactly the opposide current flow which will have the effect of cancelling the current flow.

What has to happen to create a current in the conductor is for the conductor to cut through the flux lines - this works the best if the conductor is 90 degrees to the flux lines.  When it cuts through one way the electric current flows one way.  When the conductor comes back out of the flux (cuts the other way) the current is opposite.

Thus, the way that works the best for current generation suffers the most from the lenz law - this is why the 2nd law is not broken by the whole process.  The more current you generate, the more force it takes to pass the conductor through the flux.  But if you orient the conductors so they don't intersect the flux in a perpendicular way, you don't get the current flow you want.

To say it another way, if the conductor moves along the flux lines, and does not "cut through" the lines, nothing happens.  To generate effectively you must cause the conductors to cut through the flux lines.  If you look at the traditional generator, the long straight sections of the conductors are moved right across the stator pole faces, causing the best condition for current flow - the conductors are cutting right through the flux as they rotate past the coil face.  The wires on the opposite side of the armature are cutting across the opposite magnetic pole - the conductors are pointing the opposite direction, so the magnetic flux is being cut the opposite way on the other side - so the current circulates in the coil - not opposing itself from the other side.  This is a good orientation for effective generation. - it also causes a lot of torque when current flows - this is the conservation of energy being satisfied.


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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2006, 08:25:22 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2006, 08:26:10 AM »
Quote
Why not consider using a differently wound coil for power generation (in a standard alternator).  Instead of using a coil that is wound one layer at a time over another horizontally; wouldn't a coil that is stacked vertically (rather than horizontally) provide less of an electromagnet drag as power is drawn from the coil?

Not just any shape of coil and orientation works the way you want it to.  No matter what the orientation, as long as a conductor is "cutting" lines of flux, there will be current generated.  But if the conductor is in the wrong orientation, the current may flow across the conductor (like an eddy current), and not along the conductor the way you need it to to get current flow through the conductor.

Also, it is advantageous for only one side of the coil to be passing through the field at a time, because if the other side is passing through a field it can be generating exactly the opposide current flow which will have the effect of cancelling the current flow.

What has to happen to create a current in the conductor is for the conductor to cut through the flux lines - this works the best if the conductor is 90 degrees to the flux lines.  When it cuts through one way the electric current flows one way.  When the conductor comes back out of the flux (cuts the other way) the current is opposite.

Thus, the way that works the best for current generation suffers the most from the lenz law - this is why the 2nd law is not broken by the whole process.  The more current you generate, the more force it takes to pass the conductor through the flux.  But if you orient the conductors so they don't intersect the flux in a perpendicular way, you don't get the current flow you want.

To say it another way, if the conductor moves along the flux lines, and does not "cut through" the lines, nothing happens.  To generate effectively you must cause the conductors to cut through the flux lines.  If you look at the traditional generator, the long straight sections of the conductors are moved right across the stator pole faces, causing the best condition for current flow - the conductors are cutting right through the flux as they rotate past the coil face.  The wires on the opposite side of the armature are cutting across the opposite magnetic pole - the conductors are pointing the opposite direction, so the magnetic flux is being cut the opposite way on the other side - so the current circulates in the coil - not opposing itself from the other side.  This is a good orientation for effective generation. - it also causes a lot of torque when current flows - this is the conservation of energy being satisfied.



Testing by experiment would be the way to really see if Lentz 'law' can be used to our advantage by using the vertical spiral tesla coil setup described earlier (with a hole in the center).  My hunch is it will still have some torque drag, but it should be reduced a bit as compared to a solenoid coil arrangement (horizontal windings aimed at the magnet source creating maximum torque drag). 

When I get my household and shop set up at my new location, I will be able to give it a test (if no one else has).  I think that might be why Tesla showed a coil in this vertical spiral fashion instead of a solenoid form of coil. 

jake

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2006, 03:16:22 PM »
go for it.  Keep us up to speed on what you find out.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2006, 10:51:21 PM »
The following diagram represent a transformer able to circumventing the Lentz Law according to my interpretation of: http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/ttf2/fields8.htm
I guess, the function principle is the same than motor explained there.

Notes:
-Two ferromagnetic cores (blue): Primary Core and Secondary Core.
-Two windings (red): Coil I and Coil II.
-The primary winding do generate the magnetic Flux I.
-The magnetic Flux II is generated by load current circulating through the Coil II
-The gap I and gap II avoid that magnetic Flux II pass to Primary Core
-The gap III serve to prevent splitting of the magnetic flux I, so the magnetic Flux I only pass through Coil II.

I think this will not work !
Why should the counter flux go from the secondary just in the small
core to the right side ?
It would only work, if you change the airgap widths
mechanically during the Back EMF, if you first charge up the main core
with flux from the primary while not drawing power from the secondary and
then switch off the primary coil and connect a load to the seondary and
change the airgaps in width...
But changing the airgaps mechanically will also require energy...

I think the original ideas from Slavek are much better as there is also a mechanical movement,
so that the counter and Back EMF flux can go elsewhere and not counter the source coils...

2. Regarding the Tesla flat coil idea I am pretty skeptical cause when you
have less coil area seeing the energizing flux  you will also have less
output atthe coil, so you will just reduce your output power also... so I think
it really needs a moving mechanical part which closes "side-cores" so the counter-
or Back EMF flux can not reduce the energizing flux !

Regards. Stefan.

Offline penguin hood

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Re: Circumventing the Lentz law
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2006, 04:39:23 PM »
Quote
Why should the counter flux go from the secondary just in the small
core to the right side ?

Welcome to the discussion Stefan.

From this quote from Krepelka:
"Magnetic field always finds the shortest path through the SI material in order to close a magnetic loop"

Moreover the gaps between the ferromagnetic cores, the assumption was that magnetic path through the primary core is longer than magnetic path through the secondary core.

Oviously the Lentz Law circunvention is not supported by the conventional theory. However I guess that beyond if Krepelka's theories and assumptions match with reality or not, they are interesting mental exercises to think how to apply the conventional electromagnetism theory. This is important to know what results from a krepelka's prototype we should wait for and how we should interpret the results from our experiments.

 

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