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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: CLaNZeR on July 04, 2009, 10:14:31 PM

Title: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: CLaNZeR on July 04, 2009, 10:14:31 PM
Rather than repeating it and details of replication, check out thread

http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?t=378

Cheers

Sean.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Goat on July 04, 2009, 11:58:41 PM
@ CLaNZeR

Nice video, very compelling :)

I noticed though that the magnets are specially aligned, is that covered in the inventors plans?

If you notice in the photos of the top and bottom you can see how the magnets are arranged.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on July 05, 2009, 02:38:23 AM
I enhanced the Gamma a bit on one of the pics that was kind of dark.

you can see the hot glue that was used to orient the magnets.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on July 05, 2009, 03:44:57 AM
I really think he should of made the Stator and assembly from clear Acrylic.

if it requires Slick/oiled Teflon then maybe a Teflon sleeve with Teflon oil would suffice so that everyone could see into the device and solve some doubts of others.

it sure would be nice to be able to tell the Physics department they were wrong about such a device. but I am not counting the chicks just yet until hatched at least.

but it is a nice show so far.

it looks like he used one size of magnet and pushed them into holes to orient their length on the sides and then hot glued them into place.

Jerry ;)
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: lumen on July 05, 2009, 04:25:37 AM
I think we need better video. At this point it could be anything.
It sure looks like it works much better on exact locations on that table, or even best right over the transformer?

Hmmmm...... , I'll wait on this one for the better video.

Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Mr_Video on July 05, 2009, 04:40:47 AM
did you notice how carefully he put the base (stator) on the table top ?

as if he had to position it in juuust the right spot .
maybe something under the table ?

looks easy to replicate though, I hope CLaNZeR can make it work .
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: 0c on July 05, 2009, 07:24:08 AM
Slanted magnets are interesting. I wonder what it would be like if the magnets were mounted through a Mobius ring?
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Omega_0 on July 05, 2009, 10:01:36 AM
A close up.
Seems its not necessary to place magnets very very accurately. Some magnets have different gaps and heights don't vary uniformly. Even the slanting is just approx.

So it would be easy to try without further info. The stator can be S-S, N-N or S-N.
One can even interchange stator and rotor and place the magnets on a base and use stator as rotor, should be easier.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: markdansie on July 05, 2009, 11:45:05 AM
I onece view a similar device (not same construction) using the magnets at different heights. It ran well but slowed down. However there are some significant variations on this. I will sit on the fence until its been replicated
Mark
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Goat on July 05, 2009, 01:20:57 PM
@ All

I didn't realize this yesterday when I posted the above pictures from Youtube but this is being covered at Peswiki with more pictures and details.

See http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts

If you scroll down the page to the Instructions section you will see the following explanations of the reason for the slanted magnet arrangement.

From FM, July 4, 2009
(slightly edited)

To better understand, try first to actuate the rotor with only one magnet in repulsion by hand. After this, try to displace the actuator magnet away from rotor to surpass the magnetic gate and return to face to face in ramp. You see the attraction of the other side of rotor’s magnets when you displace away the actuator. In the middle of magnets, the force field is closest to neutral. After try to make measurements in the required displacement to surpass the magnetic gate. A lot of patience is required to make the correct evolution in the deflected angle, step by step, until achieve the correct progressive deflection.

The key is: convert the repulsion in magnetic gate into attraction (great angle), decrease the attraction when the magnetic field is diminished (small angle), and restart the repulsion again in the ramp.


Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: markdansie on July 05, 2009, 02:04:02 PM
@ Goat
I think this is the key ...getting those angles right. I must admit this is a unique approach.
Thanks Clanzer...await your replication results
Mark
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: billmehess on July 05, 2009, 03:44:33 PM
It's interesting how these "new" motors seem to follow the same pattern. They show up on youtube working unbelievably well. No sound or description of how they work. They tend to be very small and move at great speeds under just about any condition. There's always some degree of
secrecy about them. The "inventor" always want to remain unknown.
Anyone see a pattern here?
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: LightRider on July 05, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
Hi,

Here is an acceleration analysis of the youtube video (low quality)
(see graph below)

Important note about the analysis:
- this analysis is far from accurate.
- many variables are able to deteriorate the graph results
- low quality of the video
- especially low frames per second
- this makes the acceleration curve less precise and more difficult to interpret.
- finally, dots that form horizontal line on the acceleration curve,
  are due to low frames per second of the video and the motion sensors used for this analysis.

   
Remark
- despite the circular motion of the engine made by hand several times during the video,
- the axis of rotation seems to remain always close to the same place...
  ...with one exception when the engine is tipped, during this time the engine is decelerating.

- caution before any conclusion would be wise...
  ...Mylow story and method is also possible here.



LightRider


graph was originally posted at:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: TinselKoala on July 05, 2009, 07:55:06 PM
Wait and see, wait and see.

In principle, this device should not work as implied: by the interactions of the visible magnets alone.
But you all knew that I would say that.

I think the weird angled magnets got pushed too far through their holes and shifted before the hot glue set up.

Please don't anybody go buy a bunch of magnets, or especially plans from or through Sterling, until some more work has been done by outsiders like CLaNZeR, who probably have the right magnets and other materials lying around. Unless of course you just get off on that sort of thing...I'm not trying to stop anybody from having fun...
 ;D

And don't forget about the "RB Effect" as a possible source of drive (but I can think of many many others, that don't violate CofM.)
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: LightRider on July 05, 2009, 09:37:43 PM
CLaNZeRS Replication of the FM Concepts PMM Part1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mjyu6YmJkM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D378&feature=player_embedded

Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: markdansie on July 05, 2009, 10:34:56 PM
Sterling already has appointed himself manager of the project. However he doesnt seem to be getting any commission for plans. He may have turned over a new leaf.
I am sure the kit version will be for sale as soon as some one verify's it.
I dont see any fishing line on this one, however I am at this stage not convinced until clanzer or someone else duplicates it. I will not condem it at this stage either
Mark
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: LightRider on July 06, 2009, 12:21:47 AM
why when the rotor and stator are tilted (at a very small angle)...
 ... there deceleration ?  ???

any suggestion...

Thanks,
LightRider
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Dusty on July 06, 2009, 01:01:49 AM
This morning I quickly made a model of this spinning device and it doesn't work.  Of course there was some talk of getting a NDA from the inventor guy which I didn't. So, unless I don't have some top secret information, it just spins one turn and hits the wall and stops.  Is it worth even posting a video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigYmzReW84

Dusty
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: lumen on July 06, 2009, 02:54:56 AM
Dusty, Now if you just had the magnet spinning under the table, it would no doubt work the same!

Good replication!

Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 06, 2009, 06:46:41 AM
The working device needs to have a outdoor morning daylight video made showing it working while sitting on a clear glass table top .    No bright spots or shadows.

Both top and undersides should be shown in the video.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Obelix on July 06, 2009, 09:42:08 AM
Hello,

Just a simple observation.
Take a close look at the stator. The two magnets are at different height ....
Perhaps ???

Obelix
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 06, 2009, 02:47:00 PM
Hi All,

I have in my workshop a powerfull motorized device I can magnetically couple to a device such as this. I can get it or devices like it to spin from quite a disrtance away.  A camera would not see it.

If a video was made outside outside-- Up close and far away while operating.  The thoughts of any magnetic coupling would vanish.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: TinselKoala on July 06, 2009, 04:41:54 PM
Hi All,

I have in my workshop a powerfull motorized device I can magnetically couple to a device such as this. I can get it or devices like it to spin from quite a disrtance away.  A camera would not see it.

If a video was made outside outside-- Up close and far away while operating.  The thoughts of any magnetic coupling would vanish.

Now YOU're the skeptic. Congratulations!

(There are a bunch of ways to do the same outside, up close and far away, on video. I do believe I could even make one that you could hold in your hand, and if I didn't let you saw it in half, you'd never know it was fake.)
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Asymatrix on July 06, 2009, 04:48:08 PM
It's just a simple circular gate with two stators. Why anyone would think it's not a scam is fairly amazing.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: mscoffman on July 06, 2009, 05:32:56 PM

Looks like one may need to have a hand handy to make this one go.  :-[
You gotta have that touch. Anytime, you see a human hand in a free
energy experiments...beware, there may be a hand magnet.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 06, 2009, 07:45:43 PM
Now YOU're the skeptic. Congratulations!

(There are a bunch of ways to do the same outside, up close and far away, on video. I do believe I could even make one that you could hold in your hand, and if I didn't let you saw it in half, you'd never know it was fake.)

I know that in this forum many ideas are posted and since we see no real working device yet one of two things might be happening:  The actual real working devices are quickly confiscated by MIB or fakes are displayed by scam artists hoping for quick fame and fortune.
  Its rare when an honest person steps up to the plate and offers his "Working Device" to the general public to replicate. My hope is the inventor is such a person. I to can be skeptical and both vigilant and hopefull at the same time.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: maw2432 on July 06, 2009, 08:03:30 PM
CLaNZeRS Replication of the FM Concepts PMM Part1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mjyu6YmJkM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D378&feature=player_embedded

I noticed FM's rotor appears to be a metal material, perhaps stainless steel.  CLaNZeRS Replication is using clear plastic.. I wonder if the rotor material has an effect? 

Bill
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Mr_Video on July 06, 2009, 08:31:08 PM
I thought that too, but I read somewhere that FM said that the rotor material made no difference .

** Edit to add **

yup, I found it here:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?s=d3056a15f1ed654f70e1fad5c24eaeba&t=378

Quote
The inventor is using Stainless Steel 5mm thick disk. But states that any non magnetic material will produce the same result.

This is more a method of getting past the sticky spot with the arrangement of the array, than the materials and sizes.

But take your point on eddy currents mate

Cheers
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Xaero_Vincent on July 06, 2009, 10:00:08 PM
Judging by how carefully the stator is placed on the table, I'd think there is some sort of spinning magnetic coupler mounted underneath the table. The induced field would then cause the rotor to spin. I'll withhold my final judgement until CLaNZeR completes his replication.

If it works then great but on top of spinning the device must also produce measurable torque to handle an external load and fail to accelerate demagnetization due to spinning repulsive action. The energy density of rare-earth magnets is inferior to all modern battery technologies and if magnets also have discharging/demagnetising characteristics (similar to batteries) then permanent magnets used in this manner should be discredited altogether.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 06, 2009, 11:24:13 PM
Judging by how carefully the stator is placed on the table, I'd think there is some sort of spinning magnetic coupler mounted underneath the table. The induced field would then cause the rotor to spin. I'll withhold my final judgement until CLaNZeR completes his replication.

   Anyone in the market for a spinning magnetic coupler?  I have a powerful one to sell.  magnetman12003


If it works then great but on top of spinning the device must also produce measurable torque to handle an external load and fail to accelerate demagnetization due to spinning repulsive action. The energy density of rare-earth magnets is inferior to all modern battery technologies and if magnets also have discharging/demagnetising characteristics (similar to batteries) then permanent magnets used in this manner should be discredited altogether.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: TheOne on July 07, 2009, 06:05:11 AM
This morning I quickly made a model of this spinning device and it doesn't work.  Of course there was some talk of getting a NDA from the inventor guy which I didn't. So, unless I don't have some top secret information, it just spins one turn and hits the wall and stops.  Is it worth even posting a video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigYmzReW84

Dusty

Good replication, however, the stator need 2 magnets per side, so 4 magnets, 2 stacked on each side
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: carbonc_cc on July 07, 2009, 02:36:31 PM
I'm sitting on the fence on this one.  I see this toy with the same "closing-the-loop" problem I saw with the mylow motor.  Even if you tried to "null" the gate.  Closing the loop would just make the whole thing extremely weak.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 07, 2009, 03:29:19 PM
I thought that too, but I read somewhere that FM said that the rotor material made no difference .

If thats the case then the inventor must have made more than one of these devices and saw it ran using diferent materials.  Wheres the other devices?  Also beware of the "magic hand" use on any type of self runner.  I have constructed a number of those devices myself that I never posted.

yup, I found it here:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?s=d3056a15f1ed654f70e1fad5c24eaeba&t=378
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: queue on July 07, 2009, 10:29:30 PM
This morning I quickly made a model of this spinning device and it doesn't work.  Of course there was some talk of getting a NDA from the inventor guy which I didn't. So, unless I don't have some top secret information, it just spins one turn and hits the wall and stops.  Is it worth even posting a video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigYmzReW84

Dusty

Hi Dusty

Did you happen to notice that one of his stator magnets in the base is set a wee bit higher than the other one ?
IN these pics you can see ..
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts


i think i have these exact same NEOs somewhere in my magnet collections .. will have to check when i get home tonight ..

Cheers
Q

** http://OverUnity.ca   
** http://Relativity.ca
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 07, 2009, 11:39:20 PM
Hi All,

I like this one.
It's simple, immediate start, unidirectional, and cheap to build to prove concept. I certainly hope that is is a working concept and applaud the inventor for open-sourcing it (as much as he has....but it's weird w/ the NDA).

Unfortunately I have to sit on the fence w/ the others here as I saw some questionable things in the vid that I'd have to say it was a scam without other more revealing video.

The things I have concern about are:

1.) 0:05-0:11s - You cannot see the table surface the shaft will intersect with. No clear shot of the table top at any time.

2.) 0:13, 2:05-2:08s - Why is the inserted end of the shaft a different color? Is it a different material or is that hiding a machined key on the end of the shaft?

3.) 1:04-1:15 - During the "tilt" part of the presentation it seems extra care is used, as if the central hole of the stator was drilled all the way through and the end of the shaft is resting on the table top. The small glimpse I get of the shaft during the tilt, it seems to be sliding in the central hole and slowing the rotor down due to increased drag (even though this may not jibe with Lightrider's RPM analysis, this is the way it looks to me). After it's set back down it seems to speed up (again, my perception and not to be considered as important as the RPM analysis).

4.) Entire video - The stator assembly is moved rotationally quite a bit and does move laterally a tiny bit during those stator rotations, but is not moved laterally very much at all outside of what could be a "sphere of influence"  from the table surface or underneath the table. It would be nice to see it slide from side to side.

5.) Most of the video - Mr. Hand. It would be nice to see it spontaneously turn for a length of time where the stator is not being influenced by any outside motion.

While I hope that I am mistaken, these anomalies make me want to see more before I spend much time per suing replication of this device.

FM, please make another video of your proof of concept,  hopefully addressing these questions so that we might be a bit more convinced of your discovery and be more inclined to independently replicate it to insure the complete dissemination of the concept.

To all the replicators -
 I hope you prove these things dead wrong and good luck!

Thanks! ;)
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 08, 2009, 01:21:39 AM
Hi Dusty

Did you happen to notice that one of his stator magnets in the base is set a wee bit higher than the other one ?
IN these pics you can see ..
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts


  Here is an jpeg enlarged bottom view of the rotor.

i think i have these exact same NEOs somewhere in my magnet collections .. will have to check when i get home tonight ..

Cheers
Q

** http://OverUnity.ca   
** http://Relativity.ca
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 08, 2009, 01:46:13 AM
Notice the relation the LAST and MOST tilted magnet has to the center drive shaft. What kind of metal is that drive shaft made of ?  That also might factor into the operation??

It appears the sticky spot is directed to the "insides" of the rotor by the way the last 4 magnets curve.

--- Food for thought -- Say all 16 magnets had just a  very - very slight curve towards the insides of the rotor assembly.  Setup as below but all magnets curved inwards somewhat.
The rotor spins and by the time the sticky spot comes around ( Last magnet 45 degree curve) its essentialy directed where its null.   That sticky spot now rides the insides of the stator magnets circular "track".
Rotor then keeps spinning and a very "smooth" rotation should result. No more speed up then slow down at the last 4 magnets.     
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: queue on July 08, 2009, 05:11:18 AM
Hi Dusty

Did you happen to notice that one of his stator magnets in the base is set a wee bit higher than the other one ?
IN these pics you can see ..
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts


i think i have these exact same NEOs somewhere in my magnet collections .. will have to check when i get home tonight ..

Cheers
Q

** http://OverUnity.ca   
** http://Relativity.ca



Dusty : Magnetman12003

i was referring to the two neo stator magnets in the base .. ( right side in below pic )
Notice that one neo is set flush into the base .. the other is raised slightly ..

Q
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 08, 2009, 05:43:15 AM
Anyone have an idea on the magnet polaritys and can color code an illustration?   Post here what you believe should work for both rotor and stator.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Lilhawk on July 08, 2009, 07:02:21 AM
This could be wrong .....but I think this is the only way it will work in my opinion....you could reverse this set up and trade N for S and it should still work
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: wattsup on July 08, 2009, 02:22:37 PM
Look.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: deseret on July 08, 2009, 11:48:50 PM
It needs to be Independently Verified or be Mylowed!
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 09, 2009, 01:45:28 AM
If what I am seeing is true then it looks like all 16 rotor magnets have to be installed one by one with the glue drying before installing the next magnet.  Fighting repelling forces all the way.  How much room for error is anyones guess.

  If the device doesnt work out then the magnets will haver to be broken out of the rotor cement to save them???

The rotor might be able to turn if correctly constructed but it also will bounce up and down.

Essentially it becomes a "rotor floater" or a huge bouncing self spinning  magnetic bearing.    Any comments?? 
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 09, 2009, 02:52:59 PM
If what I am seeing is true then it looks like all 16 rotor magnets have to be installed one by one with the glue drying before installing the next magnet.  Fighting repelling forces all the way.  How much room for error is anyones guess.

  If the device doesnt work out then the magnets will haver to be broken out of the rotor cement to save them???

The rotor might be able to turn if correctly constructed but it also will bounce up and down.

Essentially it becomes a "rotor floater" or a huge bouncing self spinning  magnetic bearing.    Any comments??

Yes installing magnets is always tricky.  But why would you need to break them out?  Such small magnets are less than a dollar each, or even if they are a dollar or two each, breaking or chipping them to save a few bucks - is that worth it?

No it won't bounce up and down!  Proper 3D magnetic simulations of his geometry reveals the upwards force from the stators on the rotor, does indeed vary from one stator to the other, depending on which part of the rotor's "ramp" is at that stator.

But the rotor itself is close to 300 grams, if the disc is stainless and the magnet mass.  the upwards force at these gaps is about 1-2 Newtons, and a Newton is 102 grams.  So no the rotor won't "lift off".

However this WILL reduce the bearing friction as weight is reduced on the bearing contact surfaces!

And I will say this, small changes in geometry, will be extremely sensitive to whether a replication will work or not - the net or average torque is extremely small - amounting to about 10 milliwatts of shaft power to maintain around 100 rpm with a good bearing and this mass.

So get just one aspect of the magnetic geometry wrong, and you will miss the working envelope.

Unfortunately many imperfections of this chap's machine are going to be very tedious to replicate.  Such as his rotor disc appears not to be true or round, and the bearing appears to be pressed into it's bore on the disc at a slight off axis angle. 

And the chamfer on the disc is of a varying width, indicating his lathe did not hold the part square and true!

And various of the vertical magnets are not - vertical as you pointed out about one that appears to have cracked in half inside the rotor.

He gouged out the holes for the angled magnets in the rotor disc by side loading a drill bit into a perpendicular hole - and that is VERY imprecise.

Also the mass distribution of the rotating assembly is unbalanced, from gravity's point of view, and from the moment of inertia of the gyroscopic effects of the varying side force applied by the stators to the "gyro".

This is not as "simple" as it appears to replicate!

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: ramset on July 09, 2009, 03:03:10 PM
DMBOSS

""This is not as "simple" as it appears to replicate!""

In a way that is good news [been tried a million times before phrase comes to mind]

Chet
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 09, 2009, 07:03:03 PM
I have not found any 8mm x 20mm rod magnets in the USA.  Shipping from overseas would be expensive.

I have nineteen  3/8 dia. x 1.25 long powerful rod magnets I can use to make this device. I know thats not what the inventor used.  They were not cheap.

 I dont mind giving this a try using what I have but would only use a cement that when dry could hold the magnets in place.  Also of needed I could remove the magnets easily without busting them to pieces. 

Any cement/epoxy recomendatrions that can securely bond magnets to steel, plastic, or wood and still  be easily removed??  Mind you-- Hot glue gun epoxy uses heat which destroys a magnet quickly.  Thats out.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: ramset on July 09, 2009, 09:54:52 PM
MagnetMan
Bill [Landon] used liquid nails,pL200-pL400 [home Depot etc..]
Still gonna be a pain to get apart [use the minimum]
Chet
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 09, 2009, 10:11:16 PM
I have not found any 8mm x 20mm rod magnets in the USA.  Shipping from overseas would be expensive.

I have nineteen  3/8 dia. x 1.25 long powerful rod magnets I can use to make this device. I know thats not what the inventor used.  They were not cheap.

 I dont mind giving this a try using what I have but would only use a cement that when dry could hold the magnets in place.  Also of needed I could remove the magnets easily without busting them to pieces. 

Any cement/epoxy recomendatrions that can securely bond magnets to steel, plastic, or wood and still  be easily removed??  Mind you-- Hot glue gun epoxy uses heat which destroys a magnet quickly.  Thats out.

Well your mounting holes should not be terribly loose fitting, though that is tricky with the slanted ones.

But a thickened cyanoacrylate (Krazy glue), along with a "kicker" or accelerator will hold Neo's nicely if the fit is tight.  And you can remove the adhesive with cyano debonder.

Go to a local hobby shop and they have lots of professional cyano compounds and kickers and debonder. (always have some debonder on hand because you will glue fingers together at some point)

But don't spray the kicker at or near the glue bottle nozzle!  And try not to spray kicker on nearby virgin mounting locations....

the vertical magnets could be made to be a press fit if you had decent machining facilities - and then they'd not need to be glued, but you could press fit them and remove them easily.

or you could also drill and tap small stainless set screws through the edge of the rotor too, and hold the magnets that way. again this would make them removeable without a mess.

BUT for a press fit into bulk stainless - be careful.  it's hard and if your interference fit isn't right you will shatter the magnet.  It will take some trial and error on test holes in a scrap piece of the same rotor material to get the exact interference fit to work. (interference fit is where the bore is slightly smaller than the rod that is pressed into it - here probably only 0.0005" smaller or less)

A press fit into plastic to hold Neo's is easy, as the plastic deforms easily compared to the fracture strength of the magnet - but stainless is a different story.

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Craigy on July 10, 2009, 02:18:10 AM
I thought i would knock this up, but although the rotor is the correct size i am using 12x 6 mm n40 neos.  Disc is perspex, and most of the neos are friction fit , no glue required.  The slanted neos are held in place using hot melt glue from a glue gun. Easy to apply and easier to peel off, which makes modification or removal of magnets fairly painless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWyWGT2Aois

part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A24EKWIgZzo

the rig will work equally well ( Or Badly) upside down or right side up. Reducing air gap on these magnets below 15mm makes the rotor rise up the shaft..enjoy
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 10, 2009, 12:30:59 PM
I thought i would knock this up, but although the rotor is the correct size i am using 12x 6 mm n40 neos.  Disc is perspex, and most of the neos are friction fit , no glue required.  The slanted neos are held in place using hot melt glue from a glue gun. Easy to apply and easier to peel off, which makes modification or removal of magnets fairly painless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWyWGT2Aois

part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A24EKWIgZzo

the rig will work equally well ( Or Badly) upside down or right side up. Reducing air gap on these magnets below 15mm makes the rotor rise up the shaft..enjoy

Craigy:

Nice try.  Yes it looked to my eye the inventor used hot glue on the tilted magnets in the hi res photos found at PESwiki.

That may pose problems with replication.  Most neos have a max operating temperature of 80 degrees C, and completely demagnetize at 350C.  But between these two temps some change or loss of magnetization occurs.

Hot melt glue is either 120C or 195C so he may have altered the magnetization of the tilt mags by repeatedly removing and regluing them this way! (which does not bode well for any replication, including my bet even he cannot replicate it if that is what makes it work) (just gluing the mags once probably won't alter them, but repeatedly removing and regluing them with hot melt adhesive might, especially if you had to use a heat gun to get the whole assembly's thermal mass up to the softening temp to remove or move the tilt magnets)(and altering the magnetic properties of the neos, is what Steorn's reputed effect is all about, isn't it?)(they [Steorn] say only "bad" magnets work - which could mean ones that are only partially magnetized)

But still you cannot conclude it doesn't work if the replication has not duplicated the geometry relationships of the magnets, and the mass of the rotor, and the same single bearing wobble he used. (all single bearings will wobble/tilt)... since the magnetic forces are inversely proportional to the square of the distance between magnetic field sources - tiny changes in geometry will have large effects!

And his center shaft/bolt is steel!  the black oxide finish on this socket head cap screw indicates it is hardened steel.  Also if he used 304 (18-8) stainless for the rotor, it is slightly ferromagnetic too!  Both these will affect the magnetic behavior of the whole system!

You can't do stainless on that toy lathe, but you could do brass, and it's about the same density as stainless....(hey I'm not knocking your lathe - having any one, even a toy lathe is better than nothing)  Also try the correct proportions for your magnet sizes.  In other words don't stick to his 70 mm dia rotor and 27.5 mm radius centerline for the mags.  Draw his in exact scale and use the proportions as a guide - like his magnet diameter is 100% with respect to the magnet circle, and the circumferential space between magnets is x % - and extrapolate that to your smaller magnets for circular positioning.

So you have to adjust your magnet circle radius to a smaller amount to retain the same magnet vs circumferential spacing relationship on the 22.5 degree intervals between the 16 rotor magnets, if you use smaller diameter magnets than he does. (you can't change the 22.5 degrees but differing radii makes different magnet diameter vs circumferential space relationship)

the rotor mass is important even if only from the flywheel mass point of view!  There is boost and drag torque occurring with this rotor.  And even if you had a small net boost torque, if the flywheel mass isn't big enough to store enough energy, it will not self run at a slow speed!

The inertia of the flywheel when it rotates has to be above a certain value to stay turning when it encounters the drag torque zones.  So even if you had a net boost torque of 0.0005 N-m, the peak drag torque will be in the -0.5 N-m range!  That will grab and stop a lightweight rotor, unless that rotor is spinning at say 1000 rpm!  And at 1000 rpm any bearing is going to have +.002 N-m of drag torque.

You need enough mass to "turn over" the drag torque humps at a slow enough speed to not encounter too much bearing and wind friction!  So lightweight plastic rotors - are not ideal by a long shot!

His is about 265 grams, for the stainless and magnets - which are both roughly 7.5 grams/cc.  Perspex or acrylic sheet is about 2.7 g/cc.

Also your dual bearings have wayyyy too much friction to begin with.  I just did run down tests of a light PVC rotor on a single full ceramic bearing and spun up by hand as you did, it takes 30-45 seconds to come to a stop.  Yours stops in a few seconds.  Way more friction than the inventor got net boost torque! (rule of thumb, the rotor/bearing should take 20+ seconds to come to a stop with a finger flick to get it going, in the absence of magnetic forces - less and your friction is likely too high) (one may need to try various different bearings to get it right)

IF this "motor" is real and not a hoax, by no means is a replication simple or easy!  He's spent what, a year of trial and error on this?  Going at it with less than accurate replication; in an afternoon or two and expecting it to work right off, might be a bit unrealistic.

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: TinselKoala on July 10, 2009, 03:26:09 PM
We have all been here before.

What the nice enlarged picture shows is a rotor with holes that are too large for the magnets, and some hot-glued magnets that didn't want to stay put while the glue set. I am very sure that the builder was trying to achieve a symmetrical arrangement. There is no way that these "precise" out-of-position magnets were deliberately positioned. Look at the machining on the other parts!

Regardless of the positioning of the magnets, there is no way that this device is turning as a result of interactions between the visible magnets.

That's it, have fun. Remember MyLOW!

Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Xaero_Vincent on July 10, 2009, 05:59:30 PM
TinselKoala is probably right here. One quick replication has been made by a member here and it cogs badly.

Even if he were wrong the torque is still probably just slightly above zero after it loses energy breaking through the gate. A torque-less motor that cannot perform any real work is one that ends up in the garbage.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: mrock on July 10, 2009, 06:10:47 PM
This morning I quickly made a model of this spinning device and it doesn't work.  Of course there was some talk of getting a NDA from the inventor guy which I didn't. So, unless I don't have some top secret information, it just spins one turn and hits the wall and stops.  Is it worth even posting a video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigYmzReW84 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigYmzReW84)

Dusty
Dusty, can it be like this ?

thanks,
mrock
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: 0c on July 10, 2009, 06:31:47 PM
Even if he were wrong the torque is still probably just slightly above zero after it loses energy breaking through the gate. A torque-less motor that cannot perform any real work is one that ends up in the garbage.

There's a lot of people that would agree with you, but not me. And it's possible things like this may have actually happened (if there is any truth to some of the rumors and conspiracy theories so rampant in this field of research). Even if the device merely sustains itself, it would be convincing evidence that 2LoT can be beaten. After all, it would be overcoming such things as friction and air resistance, conventionally considered impossible.

There have been a lot of claims out there. Trouble is, nobody seems to be able to reproduce their claimed results under controlled conditions, with credible witnesses.

Anyone who trashes such a device, simply because it can't produce usable torque is a moron.

I will say this much, if I ever get a WhipMag which can repeatably be shown to self-sustain, I promise you it will find its way to a physics lab staffed with people a lot smarter and more knowledgable than I am. Doesn't matter if it produces any usable torque, if it can sustain itself, several laws and theories of physics would need to be rewritten.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Xaero_Vincent on July 10, 2009, 07:43:58 PM
Oc,

Well many projects replicaters here have claimed to have violated the second law of thermodynamics anyway and ZP vacuum-energy from the Universe (which doesn't appear to violate the law) has already been proven by a German university science professor, for example.

So as unorthodox as it would sound to scientifically confirm the violation of laws of conventional physics, I would not be surprised. I would, however, be surprised if a permanent magnet motor can be proven to actually spin continuously, while having useful excess torque and not suffer from accelerated demagnetization.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: 0c on July 10, 2009, 07:54:49 PM
Well many projects replicaters here have claimed to have violated the second law of thermodynamics anyway and ZP vacuum-energy from the Universe (which doesn't appear to violate the law) has already been proven by a German university science professor, for example.

All idle claims as far as I'm concerned. Where are the reproducible experiments that can be openly shown to the world?

I would, however, be surprised if a permanent magnet motor can be proven to actually spin continuously

I too would be (pleasantly) surprised.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: ezzob on July 10, 2009, 08:25:55 PM
Its easy,think out of the box, magnet motor its real, you can learn of mylow and replicates,
and you find it easy, search and you will find.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 10, 2009, 11:12:25 PM
What the real story with the Perendev magnet  motor? 

It seems thats not such a hot topic now??
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 10, 2009, 11:26:49 PM
Hi All,
Can anyone suggest a particular bearing that will "spin freely" for a very long time with a moderate load on it?  Where can they be purchased?  Need part numbers.

 I have in the past used old hard drive bearings ( light load) and they work ok but fail under a moderate load.

 I also have used free spinning Go Kart bearings for heavy loads. They are big!  An oil lubrication is on the insides. No grease.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: 0c on July 11, 2009, 12:18:09 AM
Hi All,
Can anyone suggest a particular bearing that will "spin freely" for a very long time with a moderate load on it?  Where can they be purchased?  Need part numbers.

 I have in the past used old hard drive bearings ( light load) and they work ok but fail under a moderate load.

 I also have used free spinning Go Kart bearings for heavy loads. They are big!  An oil lubrication is on the insides. No grease.

For radial loads with only slight side loads (axial), try some high end skateboard or bicycle bearings. Here's a lubrication procedure that will help a bit too:
http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=9234#9234
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: wattsup on July 11, 2009, 12:23:01 AM
Ceramic bearings.
http://bearingkinetics.com/ceramic/ceramic-bearings.htm
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 11, 2009, 12:42:05 PM
Hi All,
Can anyone suggest a particular bearing that will "spin freely" for a very long time with a moderate load on it?  Where can they be purchased?  Need part numbers.

 I have in the past used old hard drive bearings ( light load) and they work ok but fail under a moderate load.

 I also have used free spinning Go Kart bearings for heavy loads. They are big!  An oil lubrication is on the insides. No grease.
Magnetman:

Full ceramic bearings are the absolute least friction of any angular contact ball bearing.  And they work best (lowest friction) with NO lubrication, if your speeds are low.

Boca Bearings has them in stock, but they are not cheap!

http://www.bocabearings.com/

At any rate, you should get open bearings and certainly none with rubber contact seals!

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Thaelin on July 11, 2009, 06:04:23 PM
   On the three pics of inserting the mags. Look down in the hole.
Is that the top of a magnet I see? More than one hole has the
same shinny in it.

thay
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: TinselKoala on July 11, 2009, 07:58:55 PM
   On the three pics of inserting the mags. Look down in the hole.
Is that the top of a magnet I see? More than one hole has the
same shinny in it.

thay

I think those are small holes in the bottom of the bigger holes. You would get this if you just put the plastic part on your drill press and drilled down to the table, as the drill point penetrates the bottom of the workpiece, but doesn't go all the way through to make a "through hole." They also may have been put there deliberately because it makes it a "hole" lot easier to remove the magnets, especially if they are a tight fit in the hole. The shiny bit in there might just be some glare off the plastic. Looking at the general construction, the shiny bits might even be metal chips from a different machining operation, carried in by the bit used to make the holes in the plastic.

I think.

Has anyone gotten the approved plans? Is there anything like this on the plans?
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: 0c on July 11, 2009, 08:25:09 PM
Has anyone gotten the approved plans? Is there anything like this on the plans?

Plans currently require you to sign an NDA. PESWiki has the most prominent page for the project:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts

CLaNZeR has the most comprehensive replication info I am aware of.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?t=378

But I think you will be disappointed, unless your main objective is to stir the pot.  ;)
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Omnibus on July 12, 2009, 07:17:22 AM
It's unclear how signing this NDA would aid in making a working model. Because of the known fact that the fields of magnets are discrepant even when perfectly matching geometrically, the plans which this NDA will provide would be to no avail. All the NDA seems to provide are some obvious dimensions (obvious from the available vid) and probably a method as to how to align the four slanted magnets for the motor to work. The crucial elements are the four angles at which the four holes those four slanted magnets are protruded through and these angles unfortunately differ from device to device due to the mentioned discrepancy of the magnetic fields from magnet to magnet. Any thoughts?

As in other such cases (@xpenzif, @alsetalokin, Mylow, Torbay, to name a few) a visit to ascertain the validity of the claim is a must prior to signing the NDA and any further effort, it seems. There's no proof that the guy is in Portugal even. Isn't this a rehash of the well known modern scams mainly aimed at discouraging and punishing the wide-eyed enthusiasts through leading them by the nose to exhaustion along a barren but seemingly plausible path?
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Magluvin on July 12, 2009, 07:59:39 AM
Omnibus wrote
As in other such cases (@xpenzif, @alsetalokin, Mylow, Torbay, to name a few) a visit to ascertain the validity of the claim is a must prior to signing the NDA and any further effort, it seems. There's no proof that the guy is in Portugal even. Isn't this a rehash of the well known modern scams mainly aimed at discouraging and punishing the wide-eyed enthusiasts through leading them by the nose to exhaustion along a barren but seemingly plausible path?


I agree

Magluvin
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 12, 2009, 02:28:19 PM
It's unclear how signing this NDA would aid in making a working model. Because of the known fact that the fields of magnets are discrepant even when perfectly matching geometrically, the plans which this NDA will provide would be to no avail. All the NDA seems to provide are some obvious dimensions (obvious from the available vid) and probably a method as to how to align the four slanted magnets for the motor to work. The crucial elements are the four angles at which the four holes those four slanted magnets are protruded through and these angles unfortunately differ from device to device due to the mentioned discrepancy of the magnetic fields from magnet to magnet. Any thoughts?

Yes, not only is the geometry very critical, but his statement the rotor material does not matter, is not in accord with the facts.  Austenic stainless is of variable "magnetic properties" depending on alloy and work hardening history!

I use stainless fasteners and all are 304 or 18-8 grade.  They are almost all slightly ferromagnetic, because screw forming machines and cold drawing cause work hardening to occur, raising their permeability!

In fact I just received the 304 stainless stock from which to machine a rotor for this project that, due to being cold formed rod, has several lbs of pull to a 1" cube N50 magnet! (cold forming is some serious work hardening and machining it further work hardens it too)

If his rotor is 304, which is the alloy you get if you merely ask for "Stainless" - it is likely it is magnetic, and thus moderates the inserted magnet fields!  I have 3D magnetic simulation software and am fluent with it's proper use.

Adding a stainless rotor to the model in simulation, with a mu of 10, there are regions of this rotor that have 1,000 to 2,000 gauss flux density in them, and the torque and forces between rotor and stators is much different when you add the slightly magnetic stainless rotor!

See here for a good write up of the properties of the 300 series stainless:

http://cartech.asia/techarticles.aspx?id=1476

And 400 series are as ferromagnetic as cold rolled steel!  But his is not 400 series, it is much "brighter" as it contains more chromium.

So not only are there abundant obvious unknowns, there are more subtle unknowns and inconsistent statements by this "inventor" too.

Example is you do indeed get regions of "attract" from the skewed or tilted magnets, but if your rotor is slightly ferromagnetic - this attract zone at the tilt magnets is amplified!  And the field structure is completely different with the slightly magnetic rotor forming part of the flux return paths all round!  Yet he says the rotor material does not matter?

However the $64,000 question still remains as to whether this video is faked or not!  Some powerful open neo magnets on a rotor below the table, could spin this visible rotor at a distance!

That posibility combined with a number of inconsistent statements and implausible statements by this "inventor" are not good signs! (elsewhere he claims to have made 9 variations of this working principle, some with extremely sophisticated non circular gearing systems - which is completely inconsistent with his level of machining acumen visible in this video and photos)

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 12, 2009, 09:19:29 PM
Hi All,

Let me put all this speculation to rest once and for all.

I recieved the plans after sending the inventor a copy of my drivers licence.  Sending any other lform of legal paperwork could lead to identity theft.

I will not and can not legally reveal any plan information.

Am I going to "waste my time and money" to construct it??
 
 A big fat ---NO!! ---

Enough said-- case closed.


  I also want to thank all you guys about steering me onto ceramic bearings for my future projects. I now have a couple of open bearings on order.



Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Omnibus on July 13, 2009, 08:21:39 AM
magnetman12003,

Could you please say a little more as to what made you close the case?
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 13, 2009, 12:14:24 PM
Hi All,

Let me put all this speculation to rest once and for all.

I recieved the plans after sending the inventor a copy of my drivers licence.  Sending any other lform of legal paperwork could lead to identity theft.

I will not and can not legally reveal any plan information.

Am I going to "waste my time and money" to construct it??
 
 A big fat ---NO!! ---

Enough said-- case closed.


  I also want to thank all you guys about steering me onto ceramic bearings for my future projects. I now have a couple of open bearings on order.

Magnetman:

So is your reaction because he is vague on details, or is it that he displays signs of delusion?

His stated goals are at odds with not allowing those replicating it to reveal details, as indicated by his own words found here:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/mylow_magmo/message/2100

Where he states the following: "Only they must sign the agreement for disclosure by his sides too, to assure they not keep anything hidden or undisclosed. This is for all humanity use."

If it is "for all humanity to use", and he wishes to assure those replicating it "not keep anything hidden or undisclosed", then what the heck is this apparent prohibition on revealing details he sends to someone?

There is in evidence, and by his own admission lower on the above page link, a serious translation problem which clouds many details or aspects.

and lower on this above page he makes a series of extremely implausible claims on "variations" he's completed.  Saying he's fabricated "non circular bevel gears" is about as likely as the sun not coming up tomorrow!

Bevel gears or miter gears, have angled tooth faces to mate two shafts at right angles to each other.  Non circular bevel gears, if they exist would require 5 axis CNC to fabricate.  And the likelihood this chap has done that, is implausible in the extreme.

Could he mean non circular spur gears given his lack of command of English? (which are feasible and plausible to fabricate unlike non circular bevel gears)  Sure.... but those and Geneva mechanisms, and magnetic shielding are all completely different apparent operating principles than this "toy" in the video!

But all these "variations" and the serious number of inconsistencies, and dare I say even contradictions makes me suspect and less willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Almost sounds to me like he believes he has to save the world, and believes he has some ideas how to do so, but needs others to explore them....  Which might be a motivation to fake the video too if the [messianic] delusion were strong enough.

My problem with dismissing his stuff summarily, is there can be a way to make some of these methods produce a net gain!  I have bench evidence of certain kinds of magneto-mechanical coupling and feedback, of a non linear nature (both motion and magnetic force having non linear behavior) can and do make some net gain!

But finding the "sweet spots" are extremely tricky!  Think of it as a set of interrelated parameters, not unlike playing lottery number combinations.  If you have to pick 6 numbers/factors out of say 39 variables, then the odds of hitting that right combination are quite high!

But if the odds are reduced by limiting the variables or being pointed in the right direction, then actual trial and error is not so daunting as it is to blindly stab in the dark.

So my internal "flake detector" is ringing alarm bells on this chap.  But at the same time if he has found one or more "sweet spots" I'd like to explore them.

Can you indicate a bit more why you want to abandon things after reading his "plans"?  Is it because delusion appears at least in part at work?  Or is it simply that the variations he describes are way too complicated to afford, with no proof they'l work? (I believe he counsels not to replicate the video toy, but that one should try one of the later variations instead)

Or is it that details are too muddy with broken English and bad translation?

You could elucidate on why you're not proceeding without revealing details of the designs. (examples above:  of inconcistencies, evidence or inference of delusion, bad/missing details, etc.)

DMBoss

Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 13, 2009, 03:41:50 PM
Vague on detailed information so you must make decisions on your own.  Thats not in keeping with a exact replication. Not covered-- What N grade magnets do I use??  N38, N42, N50?  Take your choice and your not in the ballpark any more.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: ellubpt on July 14, 2009, 07:44:40 AM
I refrain from commenting. Learned my lesson.
What does that mean.?
Fool me once...........................
Consider this a DONE DEAL.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: wattsup on July 14, 2009, 04:01:06 PM
The confidentiality agreement is to make sure you cannot say how much of a joke this is once you actually see or try the plans. lol

Mylow's sickness is becoming a pandemic. We should call it "Cerebral Mylowopathy".

A total waste of time. No more for me. We gave the guy the world of benefit of doubt and got shafted all the way. Now this other guy wants you to sign an agreement so you have to keep your mouth shut when you realize this is a dud. Probably his way of trapping some guys into potential litigation. Spread the net and catch the fish. He won't even have to prove in court that his device is real and he still will be able to sue you. What a world we live in.
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 15, 2009, 07:31:41 PM

My problem with dismissing his stuff summarily, is there can be a way to make some of these methods produce a net gain! 

OK, since I had already started down this road, I might as well finish it.  To my view, so far replications posted online are not faithful to the details in hand.

Namely proportions [mass and dimensions] are important, as are the actual materials he used.  Such as the hardened steel socket head cap screw as "shaft" and the 304 stainless rotor.

Turning and machining stainless is a pain - but it can be done.  You have to have enough "beef" in your machinery, and use slow speeds and feeds and copious cutting fluid/coolant, with sharp carbide inserts or tooling.

I've completed my rotor blank, and mounted a full ceramic bearing in the journal cut for it.

See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqviPQMFe7Q

And completed some reference friction tests via starting a timer at a given speed, and timing how long to come to a stop.  Forgive my verbal fumbling in the crude video, I did not write a script, just winged it.

Also shown in the video is that most of the time when obtaining 304 stainless, it is slightly magnetic, from being work hardened in manufacturing. (cold rolling or cold drawing).  And that there IS significant eddy current drag produced between rotor magnets and shaft, enhanced by shaft being steel and attracting the magnet flux to flow into an along the shaft.

Once I machine the rotor magnet's mounting holes and get them mounted, I will repeat these kinds of tests with and without stator magnets present.  (so some measure of what has happened to the net torque acting on system is obtained)

More when I get it done.

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Justalabrat on July 23, 2009, 04:40:14 AM
New video from DMBoss  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p9Hjj65Nko
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 23, 2009, 12:49:59 PM
New video from DMBoss  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p9Hjj65Nko

Actually there's 3 videos now, and I've set up a website using the handle of "QDMechanic" as in the YouTube videos.

working feverishly to set up a decent website, as I have a lot to share....  But a temporary page with better details regards the video part 3 is set up on my site for now:

http://qdmechanic.com/

Links to all 3 videos, and higher resolution copies of the stills seen in the 3rd video are posted.  Along with some brief comments on the progress.

There appears to be some gain manifesting at this early stage, when you massage some parameters.  For now after playing in "rough" to explore the parameter changes, I set about a better feedback system for gauging whether a change I make is better or worse.

Accurate speed run down is nice and simple as that yardstick.  And now I've got a much better speed rundown measuring/displaying method.

So I can go back and incrementally change things and record what works best in what direction.

It does not self run "out of the box" but can one expect that from a device which resulted from months or years of trial and error?  But it does have a non-zero net torque in dynamic fashion.  And running it in the prefferred or forward direction has longer run down speed than friction alone does, and running in reverse, has a shorter run down time than friction alone!

This is typical of many "toy" level devices.  I've measured gains from a dozen different ones so far - but the net gain is VERY small in most cases - making them extremely tricky and touchy to get everything "goldilocks" right to get them to self run.

More details on these other things, and this one when I get my site coded and written. And I will be offering some services to this "O/U" community - I have a well set up lab/shop for design, fab, testing and simulation.  Many persons have great or not so great ideas, but  do not have the means to try them or make some of the often custom components.  With my CNC etc, I can whip out parts quickly, and cost effectively. (and also can save heartache and wasted time/effort/money by sharing insights, or helping with simulation or go-nogo reality checks and other free services)

You or someone may want to try such and such idea, but without a lathe, and mill, can't make a decent facsimile of some of the parts.  But with those cost effective parts in hand, they can "tinker" and experiment to their heart's content, and with enough trial and error as a group we can make many of the root princples that produce O/U - manifest!

And there is nothing wrong with "toys" as proofs of concept.  Just because it's not gonna replace a 1000 MW generating plant tomorrow, does not mean it has no utility!  Here's a famous quote that sums it up:

"We are more ready to try the untried when what we do is inconsequential. Hence the fact that many inventions had their birth as toys."     Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: Omega_0 on July 23, 2009, 06:16:18 PM
DMBoss 

Congrats on getting a gain. And your workmanship is awesome.

How many tries you did with run-downs ? Is this gain an average value and you are getting it consistently or it happened only once ?
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 24, 2009, 01:34:32 PM
DMBoss 

Congrats on getting a gain. And your workmanship is awesome.

How many tries you did with run-downs ? Is this gain an average value and you are getting it consistently or it happened only once ?
Omega_0:

Well these kinds of devices and there are many.... involve some VERY small net forces and torques - so cobbling it together is not conducive to getting it to work!  Hence attention to detail and doing a protocol or method, with precision is the only way to be able to repeat it with a reasonable effort.

The root inventors of these things often played by hand with variations for months or years, but then replication is a nightmare - especially if they or us armchair observers do not grasp what really makes it tick!

So I spent a lot of time considering the replication design, with a view to being able to repeatably duplicate it, and be able to make incremental modifications to see what aspects are important and what aren't. 

there are literally hundreds of thousands, or millions of possible combinations of interrelated variables in such a system even though it appears simple!  Because of the non-linearity, and the interrelationships - if you have say 5 factors each with 6 degrees of freedom and all rely upon the other relationships - it is like the odds of a lottery - where factorials are involved. (where 30 elements is then 30x29x28 etc for number of combos - excuse my simplistic math, I'm no math whiz)

So if you just throw a white scarf around your neck and go flying off in the old biplane tradition - you may miss the sweet spots by tens or hundreds of miles!

Anyway that's why some serious attention to detail and some level of precision is needed for these kinds of "toy" level devices.

In answer to your questions, yes I've been doing many many run downs.  Initially, and in the preliminary case posted in the video part 3, and on my website the goal was merely to get reliable measuring feedback.  Though as a side bonus I got a reliable non zero result.

Then I went back and refined the measuring protocol to reduce the noise or error margin and make it VERY repeatable and reliable.  Then I could start some "hunting" for what makes more gain.

I've now got the measuring much more refined as you can see detailed in the attached PDF.

My error margins are lower, and no more scope math glitches. (those troubling bumps in the preliminary traces)

Now I can get the kinds of smooth run downs as seen in the attached all the time.  And analysis of many such runs, usually with 5 sub test runs each, the error is well below the non zero result.

Oh and I'm gaining a visceral insight from playing with the bench version along with many many hours of 3D magnetics sims combined with 3D dynamic motion sims that incorporate inertia, mass gravity etc..... of what makes the gain.  (it's not what most assume it is)

Example of why precision is important:  I used "drill rod" for the shaft, which is supposed to be ground to a high tolerance on the OD.  And I "assumed" it was round and true.  I turned the boss/shoulder for the bearing and left the rest of the 1/2" drill rod in the highly polished state.

But my results were all over the place regards non-zero.  So I happened to check the bare shaft, and darn it if the thing was a banana! (not straight or true)

So I machined it, and had to remove 0.003" from the diameter to make it true, round and coaxial with the bearing boss!  Does not sound like much - but now the beastie is repeatable as to a non zero result all the time!

the banana bend in the shaft was attenuating the gain mechanism for certain orientations it was inserted into the stator block.  But now that it's true - the small non zero result happens no matter what orientation it's inserted with!  (note also that in FM's video, his stator vs shaft orientation affected his rotor speed as he turns the stator to various angles in the video...)

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: DMBoss on July 25, 2009, 11:35:55 AM
Testing continues.  A word of caution to any other replication attempts:

BEWARE OF YOUR BEARING CHOICE!

I initially used a full ceramic bearing with my replication.  For the reason that these are the very lowest friction coefficients you can get with radial ball bearings.  However the bearing has several possible influences on the outcome, especially since it is resides in rather high magnetic fields mounted to this rotor, or to FM's original rotor too.

FM used a SHCS (Socket Head Cap Screw) as his rotor shaft.  His was a black oxide finish in the video and his photos, indicating it is plain steel but hardened as SHCS's are.  Thus it is strongly ferromagnetic.  And his unipolar rotor magnets (all axial magnets are oriented the same way up), have their return flux travel down the inside of this ring of axial magnets and any steel or ferromagnetic material in that region gets some serious flux and flux density!

I used a larger piece of steel, machined to accept the bearing and install into the stator base, because my version has slightly larger magnets, and more of them to maintain the same magnet diameter to rotor mounting pattern circumferent ratio.  Therefore my rotor diameter and the pattern diameter are larger - and the gap between the return flux path of the center shaft to the stator magnets and the rotor magnets might be important, so I enlarged the shaft too.

I then decided to try a normal bearing, as all single bearings of different types, grades etc can behave differently in several ways.  I chose my initial bearing size to be standard, so lots of various types and materials were available to interchange with my initial choice.

It is almost impossible to obtain a metallic ball bearing that is not ferromagnetic except for full or hybrid ceramics, which FM did not use.

Now I obtained a stainless ball bearing with a stainless retainer or "cage" for the balls.  Open style as FM used and as my full ceramic bearing is. (you cannot use stock grease or lube in any bearing for this project as the viscous friction is wayyyy too high - you need to either get open bearings and clean then out with a solvent and compressed air and relube with a drop of very light oil, or leave them dry as with ceramics; or pry off any shields to clean and relube metallic ones)

I installed this stainless ball bearing and did speed run down tests as before, and the stainless bearing is absolutely terrible.  This new bearing even when just inserted into the rotor journal, and the shaft installed, locks up or grabs the shaft due the high magnetic fields, and the fact so called stainless bearings are 400 series, which is highly ferromagnetic as are normal chrome steel bearings. (very rarely you can special order bearings in 316 stainless, but they are not easily available - that would be only very slightly magnetic but it's moot as you can't easily get 316)

The ceramic "DRY" rundown has an acceleration of -4 to -5 rpm/second (minus sign indicates deceleration, the higher the magnitude of the number the faster it slows down).  The stainless bearing with the steel shaft, has -20 to -22 rpm/second rundown acceleration going from 200 to 100 rpm as all my rundown tests use.

So a SS bearing is 4-5 times higher friction than is a ceramic and this is a killer for the teensy net torque this system might produce!

So be very careful in your bearing choice!

I subsequently replicated my steel shaft in brass and tried that.  Now the SS bearing gets into the 8 to 10 rpm/s deceleration from 200 to 100 rpm.  Still double the friction of the ceramic, but not as bad as with a steel shaft!

I will add that my full ceramic is  ABEC5, and the stainless one is ABEC1 rating.  This is a standard for bearing fit and tolerance - the higher the ABEC number the closer tolerance and smoother and truer surfaces of the balls and races.

So the SS bearing has a looser tolerance.  Now I surmise the reason this SS bearing performs so poorly in the magnetic field, is the ball retainer, or cage, is also stainless steel and magnetic.  This makes clamps or brakes on each of the balls in a high magnetic field!

I just looked closely at FM's photos and while he has a steel or stainless ball bearing, his retainer is brass or bronze, which is not magnetic as the stainless retainer on my second bearing is.  So this clamping or braking effect I mention won't happen with brass or bronze as retainer!

So pick your bearings carefully!  get non magnetic retainers (choices are brass, bronze or some plastics!)

However on a different note from observations of the stainless bearing and the brass shaft - the darn stainless bearing behaves more favorably in participating in the gain mechanism!  I am not sure why yet, but it can get better delta's for now.  Even though it's absolute friction is way higher, it behaves better.

I don't know if this is because of the fit of the balls and races (the full ceramic has higher tolerances being ABEC5 instead of the ABEC1 of the stainless bearing), or if it is related to the number and size ratios of the balls vs races.  The two are different.  The full ceramic has 8 or 9 small balls, and the stainless only has 5 or 6 balls larger in size.  Both have the same ID and OD, so it's only the balls that are different in size, but this matters in several ways it appears.

And in the vein of updating the "hunt" progress for getting more gain...  I modified some other factors when I made the brass shaft and this enhanced the gain.  I got one set of conditions to improve to about a 30% delta between FWD and REV, compared to only about 10% in previous reports.

And I got one case of getting really close!  You know when you have a small gas engine that won't start?  Like a lawnmower that's been sitting for too long without being run.  You pull and pull and pull and try the choke etc, remove spark plug and clean it, and check for spark ....  Then all of a sudden you do something and it sputters and almost catches on the next pull?

That happened to me yesterday, with the stainless bearing in place and the new shaft system changes  I spun it up by hand after hitting the record button on the data acquisition system for speed sensing.  And the beastie took about 3 times longer to run down from 200 to 100 than any previous attempt with the lousy bearing!  Almost as long a run down as with the ceramic bearing and no rotor magnets!  There were some randomized "boost" humps in the speed rundown, not unlike if that engine is firing every 3rd or 4th cycle, but at random number of dead cycles in between!

I was so excited I went and wrote over that recording of this anomalous test run.  And of course I was not able to get back there (Murphy's Law has a special subset for this work ).....  But that's OK, it means I am getting close to the right set of sweet spots!  But said Murphy's Laws for O/U might result in not seeing that happen again for some time, or it might get sorted out next week - this anomaly is good, but not certain of early success.  (I'd rather count on repeatable increments to the small gain than bet everything on finding that happy accident on demand)

And there are some kind of resonant elements involved in this working - that is almost certain from the bench observations.  A "tuning" of sorts has to be just right for this to "catch" like that dead lawnmower example.

Some of that is mass magnitude and distribution in the rotor body, including the magnets, and it's also related to the bearing, shaft and stator mount hole for that shaft - each of which has several effects on all the others.

I know I've got too much mass in my rotor, expected that.  But it is not difficult to machine off some mass so the magnets and outer rim form a flange and material is removed between this flange and the center bearing journal.

Also my cg is in the wrong place in the vertical sense....  I have underslung the rotor mass from the bearing's horizontal plane - and FM has his mass slightly above the bearing plane.

DMBoss
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: das aloda bullspit on April 17, 2010, 10:18:48 PM
@ALL
HELLO JUST WALKED IN ON THIS PRUJECT AND WAS WONDERING SEEING AS THOUGH I AM A NEWBIE ME AND SOME OF MY FRIENDS ARE VERRY INTERESTED IN THIS AND WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW THIS PROJECT IS GETTING ON .TGHERE HASNT BEEN ANY ACTION ON THIS TOPIC FOR A WHILE AND I WOULD LIKE IT TO START A GAIN(see what I did there):)
ANYWAYS HOPE YOU HAVE GOTTEN BETTER RESULTS FROM TRIAL AND ERROR AND ALSO CAN ALL OF YOU TELL ME HOE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON AND DOES DMBOSS HAVE THAT WEBSITE YET I BELIEVE THIS MAY BE ABLE TO WORK maybe DONT LOOSE HOPE IF THE WRIGHT BROS HAD WE WOULDNT B ABLE TO FLY AND DONT BE BULLIED BY ANYONE KEEP IT UP YOU WILL GET THERE EVENTUALY ALSOHAS ANYBODY THOUGHT OF USING BISMUTH?AS A ROD? I HAVE A PERPETUAL PENDULUM I MADE ITS LIKE A BISMUTH ROD WITH 2 NEOS NEXT TO EACH THOER AND IT GOES BACK AND FORTH IN A VACCUUM AND IN AIR AND IF LEFT UNDISTURBED WILL ROCK LIKE THAT  INDEFINATELY ITS NOT AS GOOD AS YOU GUYS STUFF BUT ITS GOOD BYE.......
Title: Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
Post by: das aloda bullspit on April 17, 2010, 10:26:46 PM
I WANT TOKNOW HOW THINGS HAVE BEEN GOING ON WITH THE RESEARCH AND STUFF HOPE ITS GONE WELL IM INTERESTED IN WHAT YOUR DOING PLEASE CONTCT ME OR REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE AS ITS A GOOD TOPIC AND IM NOT LETTING THIS THREAD DIE THIS IS A VIDEO THATS LIKE BY BISMUTH PENDULUM