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Author Topic: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009  (Read 35133 times)

Offline wattsup

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2009, 12:23:01 AM »

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2009, 12:23:01 AM »

Offline DMBoss

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2009, 12:42:05 PM »
Hi All,
Can anyone suggest a particular bearing that will "spin freely" for a very long time with a moderate load on it?  Where can they be purchased?  Need part numbers.

 I have in the past used old hard drive bearings ( light load) and they work ok but fail under a moderate load.

 I also have used free spinning Go Kart bearings for heavy loads. They are big!  An oil lubrication is on the insides. No grease.
Magnetman:

Full ceramic bearings are the absolute least friction of any angular contact ball bearing.  And they work best (lowest friction) with NO lubrication, if your speeds are low.

Boca Bearings has them in stock, but they are not cheap!

http://www.bocabearings.com/

At any rate, you should get open bearings and certainly none with rubber contact seals!

DMBoss

Offline Thaelin

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2009, 06:04:23 PM »
   On the three pics of inserting the mags. Look down in the hole.
Is that the top of a magnet I see? More than one hole has the
same shinny in it.

thay

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2009, 06:04:23 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2009, 07:58:55 PM »
   On the three pics of inserting the mags. Look down in the hole.
Is that the top of a magnet I see? More than one hole has the
same shinny in it.

thay

I think those are small holes in the bottom of the bigger holes. You would get this if you just put the plastic part on your drill press and drilled down to the table, as the drill point penetrates the bottom of the workpiece, but doesn't go all the way through to make a "through hole." They also may have been put there deliberately because it makes it a "hole" lot easier to remove the magnets, especially if they are a tight fit in the hole. The shiny bit in there might just be some glare off the plastic. Looking at the general construction, the shiny bits might even be metal chips from a different machining operation, carried in by the bit used to make the holes in the plastic.

I think.

Has anyone gotten the approved plans? Is there anything like this on the plans?

Offline 0c

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2009, 08:25:09 PM »
Has anyone gotten the approved plans? Is there anything like this on the plans?

Plans currently require you to sign an NDA. PESWiki has the most prominent page for the project:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts

CLaNZeR has the most comprehensive replication info I am aware of.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?t=378

But I think you will be disappointed, unless your main objective is to stir the pot.  ;)

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2009, 08:25:09 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2009, 07:17:22 AM »
It's unclear how signing this NDA would aid in making a working model. Because of the known fact that the fields of magnets are discrepant even when perfectly matching geometrically, the plans which this NDA will provide would be to no avail. All the NDA seems to provide are some obvious dimensions (obvious from the available vid) and probably a method as to how to align the four slanted magnets for the motor to work. The crucial elements are the four angles at which the four holes those four slanted magnets are protruded through and these angles unfortunately differ from device to device due to the mentioned discrepancy of the magnetic fields from magnet to magnet. Any thoughts?

As in other such cases (@xpenzif, @alsetalokin, Mylow, Torbay, to name a few) a visit to ascertain the validity of the claim is a must prior to signing the NDA and any further effort, it seems. There's no proof that the guy is in Portugal even. Isn't this a rehash of the well known modern scams mainly aimed at discouraging and punishing the wide-eyed enthusiasts through leading them by the nose to exhaustion along a barren but seemingly plausible path?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2009, 07:59:39 AM »
Omnibus wrote
As in other such cases (@xpenzif, @alsetalokin, Mylow, Torbay, to name a few) a visit to ascertain the validity of the claim is a must prior to signing the NDA and any further effort, it seems. There's no proof that the guy is in Portugal even. Isn't this a rehash of the well known modern scams mainly aimed at discouraging and punishing the wide-eyed enthusiasts through leading them by the nose to exhaustion along a barren but seemingly plausible path?


I agree

Magluvin

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2009, 07:59:39 AM »
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Offline DMBoss

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2009, 02:28:19 PM »
It's unclear how signing this NDA would aid in making a working model. Because of the known fact that the fields of magnets are discrepant even when perfectly matching geometrically, the plans which this NDA will provide would be to no avail. All the NDA seems to provide are some obvious dimensions (obvious from the available vid) and probably a method as to how to align the four slanted magnets for the motor to work. The crucial elements are the four angles at which the four holes those four slanted magnets are protruded through and these angles unfortunately differ from device to device due to the mentioned discrepancy of the magnetic fields from magnet to magnet. Any thoughts?

Yes, not only is the geometry very critical, but his statement the rotor material does not matter, is not in accord with the facts.  Austenic stainless is of variable "magnetic properties" depending on alloy and work hardening history!

I use stainless fasteners and all are 304 or 18-8 grade.  They are almost all slightly ferromagnetic, because screw forming machines and cold drawing cause work hardening to occur, raising their permeability!

In fact I just received the 304 stainless stock from which to machine a rotor for this project that, due to being cold formed rod, has several lbs of pull to a 1" cube N50 magnet! (cold forming is some serious work hardening and machining it further work hardens it too)

If his rotor is 304, which is the alloy you get if you merely ask for "Stainless" - it is likely it is magnetic, and thus moderates the inserted magnet fields!  I have 3D magnetic simulation software and am fluent with it's proper use.

Adding a stainless rotor to the model in simulation, with a mu of 10, there are regions of this rotor that have 1,000 to 2,000 gauss flux density in them, and the torque and forces between rotor and stators is much different when you add the slightly magnetic stainless rotor!

See here for a good write up of the properties of the 300 series stainless:

http://cartech.asia/techarticles.aspx?id=1476

And 400 series are as ferromagnetic as cold rolled steel!  But his is not 400 series, it is much "brighter" as it contains more chromium.

So not only are there abundant obvious unknowns, there are more subtle unknowns and inconsistent statements by this "inventor" too.

Example is you do indeed get regions of "attract" from the skewed or tilted magnets, but if your rotor is slightly ferromagnetic - this attract zone at the tilt magnets is amplified!  And the field structure is completely different with the slightly magnetic rotor forming part of the flux return paths all round!  Yet he says the rotor material does not matter?

However the $64,000 question still remains as to whether this video is faked or not!  Some powerful open neo magnets on a rotor below the table, could spin this visible rotor at a distance!

That posibility combined with a number of inconsistent statements and implausible statements by this "inventor" are not good signs! (elsewhere he claims to have made 9 variations of this working principle, some with extremely sophisticated non circular gearing systems - which is completely inconsistent with his level of machining acumen visible in this video and photos)

DMBoss

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2009, 09:19:29 PM »
Hi All,

Let me put all this speculation to rest once and for all.

I recieved the plans after sending the inventor a copy of my drivers licence.  Sending any other lform of legal paperwork could lead to identity theft.

I will not and can not legally reveal any plan information.

Am I going to "waste my time and money" to construct it??
 
 A big fat ---NO!! ---

Enough said-- case closed.


  I also want to thank all you guys about steering me onto ceramic bearings for my future projects. I now have a couple of open bearings on order.




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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2009, 09:19:29 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2009, 08:21:39 AM »
magnetman12003,

Could you please say a little more as to what made you close the case?

Offline DMBoss

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2009, 12:14:24 PM »
Hi All,

Let me put all this speculation to rest once and for all.

I recieved the plans after sending the inventor a copy of my drivers licence.  Sending any other lform of legal paperwork could lead to identity theft.

I will not and can not legally reveal any plan information.

Am I going to "waste my time and money" to construct it??
 
 A big fat ---NO!! ---

Enough said-- case closed.


  I also want to thank all you guys about steering me onto ceramic bearings for my future projects. I now have a couple of open bearings on order.

Magnetman:

So is your reaction because he is vague on details, or is it that he displays signs of delusion?

His stated goals are at odds with not allowing those replicating it to reveal details, as indicated by his own words found here:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/mylow_magmo/message/2100

Where he states the following: "Only they must sign the agreement for disclosure by his sides too, to assure they not keep anything hidden or undisclosed. This is for all humanity use."

If it is "for all humanity to use", and he wishes to assure those replicating it "not keep anything hidden or undisclosed", then what the heck is this apparent prohibition on revealing details he sends to someone?

There is in evidence, and by his own admission lower on the above page link, a serious translation problem which clouds many details or aspects.

and lower on this above page he makes a series of extremely implausible claims on "variations" he's completed.  Saying he's fabricated "non circular bevel gears" is about as likely as the sun not coming up tomorrow!

Bevel gears or miter gears, have angled tooth faces to mate two shafts at right angles to each other.  Non circular bevel gears, if they exist would require 5 axis CNC to fabricate.  And the likelihood this chap has done that, is implausible in the extreme.

Could he mean non circular spur gears given his lack of command of English? (which are feasible and plausible to fabricate unlike non circular bevel gears)  Sure.... but those and Geneva mechanisms, and magnetic shielding are all completely different apparent operating principles than this "toy" in the video!

But all these "variations" and the serious number of inconsistencies, and dare I say even contradictions makes me suspect and less willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Almost sounds to me like he believes he has to save the world, and believes he has some ideas how to do so, but needs others to explore them....  Which might be a motivation to fake the video too if the [messianic] delusion were strong enough.

My problem with dismissing his stuff summarily, is there can be a way to make some of these methods produce a net gain!  I have bench evidence of certain kinds of magneto-mechanical coupling and feedback, of a non linear nature (both motion and magnetic force having non linear behavior) can and do make some net gain!

But finding the "sweet spots" are extremely tricky!  Think of it as a set of interrelated parameters, not unlike playing lottery number combinations.  If you have to pick 6 numbers/factors out of say 39 variables, then the odds of hitting that right combination are quite high!

But if the odds are reduced by limiting the variables or being pointed in the right direction, then actual trial and error is not so daunting as it is to blindly stab in the dark.

So my internal "flake detector" is ringing alarm bells on this chap.  But at the same time if he has found one or more "sweet spots" I'd like to explore them.

Can you indicate a bit more why you want to abandon things after reading his "plans"?  Is it because delusion appears at least in part at work?  Or is it simply that the variations he describes are way too complicated to afford, with no proof they'l work? (I believe he counsels not to replicate the video toy, but that one should try one of the later variations instead)

Or is it that details are too muddy with broken English and bad translation?

You could elucidate on why you're not proceeding without revealing details of the designs. (examples above:  of inconcistencies, evidence or inference of delusion, bad/missing details, etc.)

DMBoss


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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2009, 12:14:24 PM »
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Offline magnetman12003

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2009, 03:41:50 PM »
Vague on detailed information so you must make decisions on your own.  Thats not in keeping with a exact replication. Not covered-- What N grade magnets do I use??  N38, N42, N50?  Take your choice and your not in the ballpark any more.

Offline ellubpt

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2009, 07:44:40 AM »
I refrain from commenting. Learned my lesson.
What does that mean.?
Fool me once...........................
Consider this a DONE DEAL.

Offline wattsup

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2009, 04:01:06 PM »
The confidentiality agreement is to make sure you cannot say how much of a joke this is once you actually see or try the plans. lol

Mylow's sickness is becoming a pandemic. We should call it "Cerebral Mylowopathy".

A total waste of time. No more for me. We gave the guy the world of benefit of doubt and got shafted all the way. Now this other guy wants you to sign an agreement so you have to keep your mouth shut when you realize this is a dud. Probably his way of trapping some guys into potential litigation. Spread the net and catch the fish. He won't even have to prove in court that his device is real and he still will be able to sue you. What a world we live in.

Offline DMBoss

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Re: FM Concepts posts working video 4/7/2009
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2009, 07:31:41 PM »

My problem with dismissing his stuff summarily, is there can be a way to make some of these methods produce a net gain! 

OK, since I had already started down this road, I might as well finish it.  To my view, so far replications posted online are not faithful to the details in hand.

Namely proportions [mass and dimensions] are important, as are the actual materials he used.  Such as the hardened steel socket head cap screw as "shaft" and the 304 stainless rotor.

Turning and machining stainless is a pain - but it can be done.  You have to have enough "beef" in your machinery, and use slow speeds and feeds and copious cutting fluid/coolant, with sharp carbide inserts or tooling.

I've completed my rotor blank, and mounted a full ceramic bearing in the journal cut for it.

See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqviPQMFe7Q

And completed some reference friction tests via starting a timer at a given speed, and timing how long to come to a stop.  Forgive my verbal fumbling in the crude video, I did not write a script, just winged it.

Also shown in the video is that most of the time when obtaining 304 stainless, it is slightly magnetic, from being work hardened in manufacturing. (cold rolling or cold drawing).  And that there IS significant eddy current drag produced between rotor magnets and shaft, enhanced by shaft being steel and attracting the magnet flux to flow into an along the shaft.

Once I machine the rotor magnet's mounting holes and get them mounted, I will repeat these kinds of tests with and without stator magnets present.  (so some measure of what has happened to the net torque acting on system is obtained)

More when I get it done.

DMBoss

 

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