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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: sm0ky2 on June 25, 2009, 03:48:24 AM

Title: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on June 25, 2009, 03:48:24 AM
I had an ingenious idea to run two microwave inverters in series.

thinking i could drop 45VK down to 2300, then again down to 115V

little did i realize, these things are designed for 2-3KV, when i pump 45KV through it, it sparks all over the place and doesnt do its job....

Does anyone have some advice as to inverting such a high voltage?
specific type of wires to use? coil design, ect?

running the HV current through an intense magnetic field has a 'tension building effect' possibly could be compared to a variable capacitance, this may prove important in the process.
Paul Baumann called this effect "a magnetic choke"
the effect is basically a slowing of the static transmission, it appears to build up current as well but i have no way of measuring that for sure..
HV doesnt like my equipment....

anyhow:::   im looking to coil up a massive inverter something like 1k to 1

if such a thing is possible. and i need it to be able to handle 45K +/- on the HV side.

any help is greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Groundloop on June 25, 2009, 07:37:47 AM
@sm0ky2,

Attached is a proposal on how to do it. I must add that I have NOT build and tested such a circuit. Knowing that most car ignition coils are designed to withstand very high voltage will make this circuit possible. Just remember to connect the car coil so that the high voltage winding goes to the spark plugs. The low voltage winding goes to the diode bridge. The high voltage capacitor MUST be of a high voltage type. If you bend the L part of the spark plugs outwards then you can adjust for higher input voltage.

Hope this helps you. Good luck.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Steven Dufresne on June 25, 2009, 03:35:26 PM
@Groundloop,
Would your circuit work if the high voltage source supplied next to no current as with a Wimshurst machine? I know you're storing in the capacitor and then arcing at the spark plugs so it's time-compressed but I'd think (and you'd probably know better) the coil needs enough current to build up a magnetic field in order to work.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Groundloop on June 25, 2009, 05:08:51 PM
Steven Dufresne,

As I said, I have not tested this circuit, but I think it will work.

If you want to supply high voltage from a Wimshurst machine then
you need to make sure the two resistors has a high enough value
so that you do not load the Wimshurst machine too much.

The car ignition coil is used in a reversed order in this circuit. The
high voltage winding is connected to the spark plugs. So the C1 capacitor
must be a high voltage type so that the voltage can build up to a higher
voltage for the spark to go off. The currrent needed depends on the actual
size of the capacitor. The higher the Farad value the more current in each
discharge. But with a week input it will take longer time to charge the cap.

Yes, I think this circuit will work very well as long as you do not exseed the
maximum voltage the ignition coil can handle.

Regards,
Groundloop.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on June 26, 2009, 05:02:32 AM
@Groundloop,
Would your circuit work if the high voltage source supplied next to no current as with a Wimshurst machine? .... the coil needs enough current to build up a magnetic field in order to work.
-Steve

this can be controlled to some degree with the 'gap' on the plugs, and/or adding leyden jars / HV caps.     

I've been using jars myself, because the only "HV Capacitors" i can get my hands on are from Microwaves. unfortunately - those toto are only rated for 2-3Kv,  the voltages im dealing with are WAY too much for those caps.

2 jars of opposite charge (should) act just like an HV cap in this circuit, i'll give it a shot. my mechanic assures me that the ignition coil CAN BE run in reverse to do what we're talking about, but he also cautioned about losses.
 
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Groundloop on June 26, 2009, 07:22:25 AM
@sm0ky2,

Yes, Leyden jars will do fine for the C1 capacitor. It is also possible to make your own
high voltage capacitor. One layer of kitchen plastic foil can take approx. 5000 volt.
So 10 layers is close to 50.000 volt. Then use aluminum foil and and plastic foil alternating.
(It is a some work to make one, though.)

The losses in a car coil is approx. the same as in every other transformer. The resistance
in the copper wires will convert some of the energy to heat. It is still doable, I think.

Oh, one other thing, be very careful when working with high voltage capacitors.
Even Leyden jars can hold a huge amount of charge for a long time. Always discharge
the capacitors before working on the circuit.

Regards,
Groundloop.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 30, 2009, 05:05:23 AM
after everything ive tried, the best power output ive been able to come up with is through a solar-array, collecting the photoluminescence of the sparks at high frequency.

still in the mW range.  nothing very usefull as of yet. certainly not enough to cover the draw of a motor spinning the disks..

Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on July 30, 2009, 05:47:26 AM
You can also take off the glass ball of a Plasma Ball device and then turn it on in the vicinity of the Wimhurst disk and it will help spray extra charge onto the disk, inside the plasma ball is an antenna that radiates some good charge to play with, you can also charge caps as well with the antenna.

Just giving out some spare change.

Jerry ;)
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: AbbaRue on July 30, 2009, 07:55:30 AM
The best way I know of to convert HV to lower voltage is to use a Tesla Coil in reverse.
Wind a large number of turns of wire around a plastic pipe for the HV end and then
wind thick wire around the outside for the LV end.
Adjust the number of turns until you get the LV output you want.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: wings on July 30, 2009, 10:54:15 AM
tested:

http://www.hcrs.at/KAPTRAFO.HTM
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: hoptoad on July 30, 2009, 03:24:37 PM
tested:

http://www.hcrs.at/KAPTRAFO.HTM

I wish I could read/speak German, because your apparatus looks interesting and elegant!

Cheers
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: wings on July 30, 2009, 03:44:28 PM
tested:

http://www.hcrs.at/KAPTRAFO.HTM

not by me, tray translation by google:


http://translate.google.it/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hcrs.at%2FKAPTRAFO.HTM&sl=de&tl=en&hl=it&ie=UTF-8
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: wings on July 30, 2009, 03:47:39 PM
not by me, tray translation by google:


http://translate.google.it/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hcrs.at%2FKAPTRAFO.HTM&sl=de&tl=en&hl=it&ie=UTF-8

translation
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: mscoffman on July 30, 2009, 05:00:17 PM
The real Testatika machine is interesting in that the voltage
on the Wimhurst disk is collected via capacitive plates rather
than brushes. This gets rid of the brushes tendancy to
wear-out over time. A sequence of operational steps is required to do
this though. One could call the Testatika an AC Wimhurst machine.
The testatika machine then runs the power through what would be
called a single tube RF power oscillator with a resonant transformer
containing step down taps. This allows the final waveform steps to be
synthesised from the taps. What the testatika machine is doing is
trying to keep part of the disk's voltage high, so it can help recruit
additional charge from its surrounding environment while still suppling
large amounts of power to be stepped down. The moving voltage
components on the disk are designed to help level out HV discharge
wear on the disk. As a byproduct of the above the final voltage
waveform is lower than it would otherwise would be if the electricity
was taken directly as static.

So using an inverse Tesla Coil as a step down method is valid.
The spark gap of a standard tesla coil generates RF just like
an RF oscillator. Another name for a Tesla coil is an RF step up
transformer.

An amature-radio RF final amplifier is a relatively simple one
tube power circuit, and in it's maximum incantation, has an
output power similar to a testatika machine. The capacitive
coupling of the winhurst machine would keep the plate voltage
from going into the 10KV range where one begins to have to
be concerned about generating x-radiation. The principal reason
for using RF voltage step down - only a few turns of low mass copper
pipe can be used to form the step down transformer that would
require a certain amount of iron in a LF AC operation otherwise.

So do I think the testatika worked, the overunity energy gain
is produced by the free electron method by the wimhurst machine.
 
:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Paul-R on July 30, 2009, 07:22:27 PM
Tesla had his Patent 577671, described at:
htp://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter7.pdf
Yes, the capacitor has to be a good one.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on September 19, 2009, 04:55:32 AM
ive been experimenting with flourescent bulbs.

it seems they have a strange ability to charge up to enormous potentials when influenced by a static field.
this can be done without dischaging the potential of the original field.
and the charge taken on by the bulb can be much greater than that of the static field.

im not sure how to put this to good use, but i am able to light the bulb spuratically, and shock the tee-total piss out of myself.

there may be something of value to be gained from this.
i'll post any findings i discover, and welcome any advice/experience anyone may have on this subject.


Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: forest on September 19, 2009, 10:22:31 AM
Great! Maybe it could be used to construct high capacity new HV capacitors ? :o
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Shanti on September 20, 2009, 12:05:54 PM
Lol, ...

Just MHO: But it depends how high is your voltage and how much Amperage you have on your HV. All types of Transformers (also inverse Tesla Coil) are quite inefficient if you have very little Amperage on the HV Side (as from a static machine like a Wimshurst and Co).
But there is a device which can convert very high voltages with very low amperage to high current low voltages, and this with a very high efficiency. Farnsworth invented it, it's called an "electron multiplier". And it's even made quite simple. The only special thing you will need is a good vacuum pump.

The Basic principle is this. That with you HV you just have to deliver a stronge electric field. Thsi field accelerates electrons to a metal surface. At impact, the high energy electron will free some metal electrons too. Then these will again  accelerate due to the electric field, again to a metal surface, and so on. The number of electrons will increase exponentially. This works as long as the electric field of the HV source is stronger than the field of the electrons...So at a certain amperage, which is dependant on the HV voltage it will be in a balance and just as much electrons will be freed again as have collided.
You can this with a plate, tube, or also with a sphere circuit, whereas the sphere circuit is more efficient. BTW: The farnsworth fuser is based on this idea. He just used ions to oscillate in the field instead of electrons. And of course he then doesn't let them collide anymore with the outer surface...

There's also another possibility. Although i never tested it. Take an isolater with a high electrostricition value (Piezo-Elektret) and take a magnet with a high magnetostriction value.
Now if you deliver HV to the electret it will grow or shrink, so it will mechanically change. If you now put these electrets very firm between two magnets, then the magnets will also be mechanically pushed and pulled. Due to the high magnetostriction of the magnets the magnetic field will change considerably due to this. Now you can wind some wire around the magnets and the changing magnetic field will induce a low voltage higher current current. But i think with this you would have quite some considerable mechanical losses. So IMHO the Farnsworth device is the as far as I know most efficient device to convert such static field to LV. 
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: forest on September 20, 2009, 12:39:06 PM
ive been experimenting with flourescent bulbs.

it seems they have a strange ability to charge up to enormous potentials when influenced by a static field.
this can be done without dischaging the potential of the original field.
and the charge taken on by the bulb can be much greater than that of the static field.

im not sure how to put this to good use, but i am able to light the bulb spuratically, and shock the tee-total piss out of myself.

there may be something of value to be gained from this.
i'll post any findings i discover, and welcome any advice/experience anyone may have on this subject.

Please describe actual experiment. I have an crazy idea : what if you put fluorescent bulbs into saline solution without connection to it (need insulator or one terminal bulb only probably.
Then put a sheet or metal plate around saline solution forming one electrode of capacitor, the second electrode IS gas in fluorescent bulb with bulb terminal as second end of capacitor.

Something like that or similar would form a high grade HV capacitor if you explain how you charge bulb.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Paul-R on September 20, 2009, 02:39:21 PM
doesn't this Tesla patent relate?:

http://www.google.co.uk/patents?id=YitoAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: wings on September 20, 2009, 03:45:20 PM
Lol, ...

Just MHO: But it depends how high is your voltage and how much Amperage you have on your HV. All types of Transformers (also inverse Tesla Coil) are quite inefficient if you have very little Amperage on the HV Side (as from a static machine like a Wimshurst and Co).
But there is a device which can convert very high voltages with very low amperage to high current low voltages, and this with a very high efficiency. Farnsworth invented it, it's called an "electron multiplier". And it's even made quite simple. The only special thing you will need is a good vacuum pump.

The Basic principle is this. That with you HV you just have to deliver a stronge electric field. Thsi field accelerates electrons to a metal surface. At impact, the high energy electron will free some metal electrons too. Then these will again  accelerate due to the electric field, again to a metal surface, and so on. The number of electrons will increase exponentially. This works as long as the electric field of the HV source is stronger than the field of the electrons...So at a certain amperage, which is dependant on the HV voltage it will be in a balance and just as much electrons will be freed again as have collided.
You can this with a plate, tube, or also with a sphere circuit, whereas the sphere circuit is more efficient. BTW: The farnsworth fuser is based on this idea. He just used ions to oscillate in the field instead of electrons. And of course he then doesn't let them collide anymore with the outer surface...

There's also another possibility. Although i never tested it. Take an isolater with a high electrostricition value (Piezo-Elektret) and take a magnet with a high magnetostriction value.
Now if you deliver HV to the electret it will grow or shrink, so it will mechanically change. If you now put these electrets very firm between two magnets, then the magnets will also be mechanically pushed and pulled. Due to the high magnetostriction of the magnets the magnetic field will change considerably due to this. Now you can wind some wire around the magnets and the changing magnetic field will induce a low voltage higher current current. But i think with this you would have quite some considerable mechanical losses. So IMHO the Farnsworth device is the as far as I know most efficient device to convert such static field to LV.


some documents related to Multipactor - cold cathode :

http://www.borderlands.com/archives/arch/multipact.htm

multipaction material:
 
http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/multipact.htm


conference on Multipactor, Corona and Passive Intermodulation

http://conferences.esa.int/03C26/

Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: wings on September 20, 2009, 03:56:18 PM
http://multipactor.esa.int/whatis.html

.... you can download a multipactor calculator program from ESA here:

http://multipactor.esa.int/downloads.html
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Shanti on September 20, 2009, 04:19:21 PM
Here's a picture for a simpler construction where it is easier to see how it works:

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5370/electronmultiplieryg0.gif (http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5370/electronmultiplieryg0.gif)

The central mesh is fed with a HV DC voltage to generate the acceleration E-Field.

Here in a tubular version:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7528/patus2189358fig4.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7528/patus2189358fig4.jpg)

And here in a double tubular version, which makes the oscillation even easier and stronger:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4976/patus2137528fig5.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4976/patus2137528fig5.jpg)

BTW: Today this effect is mostly taught to avoid it. As it can pose quite a problem in a circuit if this effect starts to happen and an exponential electron buildup is unwanted.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: forest on September 20, 2009, 06:20:13 PM
My idea is to use that Tesla patent : http://www.google.co.uk/patents?id=v-tqAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

then replace stack of plates insulated by gutta percha with fluorescent tube (should be made probably from thick glass or special crystal). I'm not sure ifthat could work but why not ?

You put enormous charge on fluorescent bulb and such capacitor should polarize and charge equally by induction. Not sure what would be negative and what positive terminals but idea is interesting.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: wings on September 20, 2009, 06:31:58 PM
My idea is to use that Tesla patent : http://www.google.co.uk/patents?id=v-tqAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

then replace stack of plates insulated by gutta percha with fluorescent tube (should be made probably from thick glass or special crystal). I'm not sure ifthat could work but why not ?

You put enormous charge on fluorescent bulb and such capacitor should polarize and charge equally by induction. Not sure what would be negative and what positive terminals but idea is interesting.

or c-stack - Voltage Step-down or step-up circuit

http://jnaudin.free.fr/cstack/index.htm

Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Steven Dufresne on September 20, 2009, 06:46:47 PM
This was an approach I stumbled on when working on my testatika. 26kV, 20uA DC in, 190V, 113uA out. Okay, it was only 4% efficient but it was just something I stumbled on and since it wasn't what I was after I didn't improve upon it.

 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/potsmk1.htm

Basically it's lowering HVDC by leakage. Now that I think of it, I do this all the time when I don't insulate well enough. The point is, if you make an effort to capture all the ions then you can increase the efficiency.
-Steve
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: triffid on September 21, 2009, 08:56:59 PM
test
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on October 11, 2009, 08:55:13 PM
im toying around with tests on the works of Hermann Plauson.

basically 2 conducting plates, rotating between 2 charged plates.
when the rotating plates are 90-degrees to the charged plates, there is a fluxuation in current across a wire connecting the two plates. when they rotate 180-degrees : a polarity flip occurs sending the current in the other direction.

if this can be timed properly (rpm) then it may be sufficient to operate a transformer as plauson claimed.
in HP's patents he shows motors with multiple poles, which quite frankly confuses the heck outta me.... so the one im designing is basically like a small DC motor design. with two poles, using metal plates as stator/rotor instead of coils and magnets.

still on the drawing board with that though, as im still not convinced that this technology couldnt be used in a different way..
i.e. plauson's particular approach may not fully utilize the potential of his operating principal. 
for instance, rotating the charged plates instead of the induced ones.... or finding another way to oscillate the charges between two plates, to cause an alternating induction on a pair of secondary plates..  or ( particularly interesting to me) inducing a charge in multiple layers of plates in series, and discharging alternate plates.

i'll have to do more experimentation along these lines, perhaps a spark-gap discharged system could result in a more "solid-state" build.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Steven Dufresne on October 12, 2009, 12:18:39 AM
im toying around with tests on the works of Hermann Plauson.

basically 2 conducting plates, rotating between 2 charged plates.
when the rotating plates are 90-degrees to the charged plates, there is a fluxuation in current across a wire connecting the two plates. when they rotate 180-degrees : a polarity flip occurs sending the current in the other direction.

You've just described the Hyde generator:
 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/hyde_generator
except that Hyde was running it at 6000RPM and not just for transforming purposes, though that's probably what he started out doing.

if this can be timed properly (rpm) then it may be sufficient to operate a transformer as plauson claimed.
in HP's patents he shows motors with multiple poles, which quite frankly confuses the heck outta me.... so the one im designing is basically like a small DC motor design. with two poles, using metal plates as stator/rotor instead of coils and magnets.

still on the drawing board with that though, as im still not convinced that this technology couldnt be used in a different way..
i.e. plauson's particular approach may not fully utilize the potential of his operating principal. 
for instance, rotating the charged plates instead of the induced ones.... or finding another way to oscillate the charges between two plates, to cause an alternating induction on a pair of secondary plates..  or ( particularly interesting to me) inducing a charge in multiple layers of plates in series, and discharging alternate plates.

i'll have to do more experimentation along these lines, perhaps a spark-gap discharged system could result in a more "solid-state" build.

The wire segments of the testatika may in fact be the charged parts that are rotated between front and back antenna keys. I do that sometimes in my experiments, for example in this one:
  http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/276disksg2dcpsu3.htm

Are you refering to Plauson's US patent 1540998? If so, where in the patent does he talk about this?

I'm very interested in what you're doing.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on October 12, 2009, 03:23:06 AM
great work there!  may i ask where you obtained the "mesh" you used to make your cylinders??  i've tried to re-created those things using perforated aluminum cans, but i found that cutting and reshaping their cylindrical shape proved to be more of a problem than i could deal with....

on plauson::      i started out reading about it in some of his litterature, but in his #1540998 patent i believe its mostly discussed near the top, with bits and details down through the center, before he gets into the more complex machinery.

i started thinking along the lines of using the rotating motion of my wimshurst to operate the spinning portion of a plauson-hybrid device. this way i dont need a secondary drive mechanism.
basically what i came up with is an inverted plauson-machine.

the induced plates and transformer are the stator, and the charged plates rotate straight off the drive-shaft of the wimshurst.
i drew a basic picture of what i have in mind.

Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on October 12, 2009, 03:26:28 AM
i drew the wires out to the side for visibility, but in actuality they'll have to be along the shaft to keep from interfering with the input charging brushes while they spin.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: sm0ky2 on October 12, 2009, 07:53:30 AM
A lot of people have a hard time with evaluating the current in electrostatic systems.
So i felt the need to discuss the curent of an electrostatic discharge.

Now, when we measure electrostatic voltage potential - what we are actually measuring is a charge relative to some theoretical "zero value" being that of the charge held by the object recieving the discharge. We assume that an earth-ground holds a 'true zero' value.

Unlike current from a constant source, such as a generator or battery, the current from an electrostatic discharge is not constant. It takes the form of a symmetrical triangle-wave: increasing from 0 to peak during the first half of the discharge, then decreasing from peak to 0 during the second half. This makes accurately taking physical measurements of the current rather difficult.
Assymetry in this triangle-wave is a function of ionization of the dieletric and will not be included here.

What we will discuss is the method of calculating the peak current rating of a discharge, which occurs at 1/2 of the discharge-time (T)

To do this, we need to know two values:

1) Total Charge ( in Volts)
and
2) Discharge Time ( in seconds)

From this we can determine the rate of discharge, or change in Volts. 
Essentially:  Total Charge / Time of discharge
for example:
a charge of 13,020 V and a discharge time of 21.7 microseconds
gives us a rate of discharge of 600v per microsecond

The Peak Current of the discharge is:
                A(peak) = 1/2 change-in-V * K
where K is the dielectric constant
in the above example:  1/2 (600V/microsecond) * 1 (the dielectric constant of air)
gives us  300 microamps      below i have drawn how this triangle wave would look on a graph.

The 'mean-current' or average current of the discharge is a bit more complex, one would separate this graph into individual measurements, at say 1us intervals, add them together, then divide by the number of intervals to get the average current throughout the discharge.
which im not going to go through right now, but in this example would be something close to ..... 53 microamps give or take?
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Steven Dufresne on October 12, 2009, 04:51:38 PM
great work there!  may i ask where you obtained the "mesh" you used to make your cylinders??  i've tried to re-created those things using perforated aluminum cans, but i found that cutting and reshaping their cylindrical shape proved to be more of a problem than i could deal with....

Some of my "mesh" is homemade and some is bought. For the homemade ones I've used a hole punch, either pounding the punch with a hammer, or if the metal is thin enough, pushing it in by attaching the punch to a drill press in place of the drill bit and lowering it into the metal. These techniques at the bottoms of these two pages:
 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/potsmk2.htm
 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/potsmk4.htm
I then roll the end of a screwdriver handle (since it's sort of rounded and hard) over the holes to smooth the edges out. Then I roll the resulting sheet over a cylinder to get the right cylindrical shape.

I've also made homemade ones by drilling the holes if the metal is too thick for the above approaches.

The metals I've used are aluminium flashing from hardware stores, thinner metal sheets from craft stores (and ordering them if they didn't have what I wanted):
 http://www.ksmetals.com/craftprducts.html
and empty rectangular paint cans (because they're ferromagnetic, and rectangular because at least I'm starting with something flat, also these are ones that I buy empty so that they've never been used, and they're uncoated on the inside.)

For the store bought ones, I've just hunted around stores like Home Depot and craft stores looking at everything. The mesh in:
 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/276disksg2dcpsu3/05_276disk_grids2_DCPSU3_070719.JPG
was a layer from a filter found in Rona, a local hardware store like Home Depot. You usually find them in the air conditioner, stove range hood sections.

I've also have some that I ordered from:
 http://www.dickblick.com/products/amaco-wireform-mesh/#reviews
Photos of them can be found here:
 http://www.amaco.com/shop/product-368-wireform-metal-mesh.html

Getting the right preforated metal/mesh has always been a difficult thing.

on plauson::      i started out reading about it in some of his litterature, but in his #1540998 patent i believe its mostly discussed near the top, with bits and details down through the center, before he gets into the more complex machinery.

i started thinking along the lines of using the rotating motion of my wimshurst to operate the spinning portion of a plauson-hybrid device. this way i dont need a secondary drive mechanism.
basically what i came up with is an inverted plauson-machine.

That's exactly what I did too. The other difficulty I have is in attaching disks to shafts to get nice perpendicular motion. So I simply bought a Wimshurst machine off of ebay and took it apart:
 http://rimstar.org/equip/wimshurst_27cm.htm
(Geez... I guess one advantage of publicly documenting most everything is I always have a link  :).)

the induced plates and transformer are the stator, and the charged plates rotate straight off the drive-shaft of the wimshurst.
i drew a basic picture of what i have in mind.

Thanks for the drawing. One thing I've learned recently is the issue of leakage between the rotor and stator where high voltage is involved and where your goal is to simply provide a high voltage for purposes of interacting with the electric field without transfering charge. If your stator or rotor has sharp edges and the voltage is high enough then charge will leak from one to the other. The solution is to either avoid sharp edges or use a lower voltage or both. I think that's why the testatika uses wires for it's sectors/rotor. I also think that's one reason my Hyde generator failed. I use wire sectors now (see attached.)
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Steven Dufresne on November 07, 2009, 03:26:28 PM
I just successfully converted the high voltage from my Van de Graaff machine to low voltage DC. See:
 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/testatika_magnets_hv_to_dc.htm
for scope shots, photos, ...

I was producing DC spikes using a spark gap and decided I wanted to turn them into relatively flat low voltage DC so I could measure current. Remembering when I made my 24V power supply, I first used a full wave bridge rectifier to take AC from the wall socket and turn it into pulsed DC. So that's the same sort of thing as the high voltage DC spikes. The next step in the power supply was to smooth out the pulsed DC by putting a capacitor in parallel at that point. But the capacitor had to discharge fully in the time between spikes. There's a simple way of figuring out what size capacitor to use in that case and has to do with something called an RC time constant (again, I was learning as I went along, no EE training here.) Basically you take the time between spikes and divide it by 5. For example, given 200ms between spikes, I want my RC time constant to be 200ms/5 = 40ms. Next, the value you get by multiplying the resistance (R) of the load by the capacitance (C) of the capacitor must be less than or equal to this RC time constant, 40ms. My load was my oscilloscope which had an impedance of 1 Mohm. So if,
 RC = 40ms (see above calculation),
 C = 40ms / R,
and R is 1 Mohm, so
 C = 0.04 / 1,000,000 = 0.00000004 = 0.04 uF (microfarads)
I had some .22 uF, 100V capacitors sitting around, a little high, but I used one of those. The voltage of the spikes was more than 300V but since it was such a brief spike I figured the capacitor would be able to handle it.

And what do you know, I got around 5V DC out. When I used a meter to measure current, there wasn't much though, a few microamps. But that's to be expected of a Van de Graaff machine.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 07, 2009, 11:25:20 PM
Thanks for the drawing. One thing I've learned recently is the issue of leakage between the rotor and stator where high voltage is involved and where your goal is to simply provide a high voltage for purposes of interacting with the electric field without transfering charge. If your stator or rotor has sharp edges and the voltage is high enough then charge will leak from one to the other. The solution is to either avoid sharp edges or use a lower voltage or both. I think that's why the testatika uses wires for it's sectors/rotor. I also think that's one reason my Hyde generator failed. I use wire sectors now (see attached.)
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org

Interesting setup, could you post any more photos? ..I have some similar ideas;  ...I found some 'stained glass foiling tape' which is copper foil with an adhesive backing, I think that this may serve your purposes quite well also.  I found mine at hobby lobby and it requires less work for making sectors and comes in a variety of widths.  this website has some of those materials: www.diamondtechcrafts.com (http://www.diamondtechcrafts.com).

http://www.diamondtechcrafts.com/default.aspx?page=itemView&itemsysid=186031 (http://www.diamondtechcrafts.com/default.aspx?page=itemView&itemsysid=186031)

I also figure that the spark gap of the whimhurst machine dictates the voltage difference prior to discharge, and that this distance is directly proportional to the radius / diameter of the rotor ( in some way ).

Additionally, you could create your own adjustable spark gap using a plastic or vinyl pipe and two screws whose inner thread diameter is equal to the inner diameter of the vinyl pipe.  ( just screw one screw into one end of the pipe and once into the other end, attach electrodes and use one of these screws to adjust the distance between the gap.  It may be best to use brass or copper screws for this, as the zinc plating on some screws will eventually blast off the ends and create a mess in the chamber.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Steven Dufresne on November 08, 2009, 12:00:56 AM
Interesting setup, could you post any more photos?

I've attached a photo from an experiment with all the woven wires but before I'd put the resistors in place. I think I was testing with a diode in the photo. I do all kinds of tests.

..I have some similar ideas;  ...I found some 'stained glass foiling tape' which is copper foil with an adhesive backing, I think that this may serve your purposes quite well also.  I found mine at hobby lobby and it requires less work for making sectors and comes in a variety of widths.  this website has some of those materials: www.diamondtechcrafts.com (http://www.diamondtechcrafts.com).

http://www.diamondtechcrafts.com/default.aspx?page=itemView&itemsysid=186031 (http://www.diamondtechcrafts.com/default.aspx?page=itemView&itemsysid=186031)

The edges would still be too sharp to avoid leakage, if that's what you're also after. The wire I use is the same thickness as the wire used for old clothes hangers. And I make sure the ends terminate inside the disk with epoxy insulation all around.

If leakage is not an issue then I often use plumber's aluminium tape, available in most hardware stores.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org    http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Magnethos on November 21, 2009, 11:58:44 AM
Another way could be transforming the bidirectional energy (2wires, common) to an unidirectional impulse (1 wire) energy. Then, you can use an ignition coil to receive unidirectional high voltage and transform it to bidirectional low-voltage high current Pulsed DC.

Another way, as showed before, is to use the capacitive transformer. But in both cases you need to use unidirectional impulses as the input energy.
Perreault explains very well the circuitry to do that. Maybe some fractionation techniques must be envolved to accomplish that.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on November 21, 2009, 12:34:36 PM
hi everyone here is my simple idea to convert HV into L-Volts


note : You must know first the highest voltage AND CURRENT  that you can get ok.

Buy many transformer then connect the primaries in series then connect all secondaries in parallel ok thats how simple it is, cause it will act as a single transformer ok  8)

then everything is self explanatory right ?


TESTED BY ALL OF US OK  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  LOL

DOES IT NEED PROOF STILL?  ;D  ;D  ;D JOKE!  :D


ANOTHER SIMPLE IDEA?
don't you notice the chargers of cellphone today?, they are not using transformer but  resistors.

get a lot of resistor of atleast 1M ohms ok then connect them in series of what volts you desire ok  8)
its like series of resistors connected parallel to the source ok.  8)

sample? : how will you connect a LED in a 240 V ? don't you notice that there is resistor there? ok bye .
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 09, 2009, 04:23:50 PM
thinking i could drop 45VK down to 2300, then again down to 115V ... little did i realize, these things are designed for 2-3KV, when i pump 45KV through it, it sparks all over the place and doesnt do its job....
Putting 10-12 of the MOT's in series on the 45 KV side and then lowering the 115 VAC again might have worked.  You didn't have enough of the MOT's to begin with.

--Lee
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 10, 2009, 04:39:08 AM
Putting 10-12 of the MOT's in series on the 45 KV side and then lowering the 115 VAC again might have worked.  You didn't have enough of the MOT's to begin with.
--Lee
Sorry, I did the math wrong in my head:  It's 20-25 MOT's in series with more than one string in parallel to handle the potentially high current if necessary.  A large industrial transformer can lower the 115 VAC to 12VAC.

--Lee
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: wings on December 10, 2009, 03:09:32 PM
@ Steven Dufresne
 from :

http://books.google.it/books?id=0RmkmrFxHM0C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=%22the+super+tube%22+Moray&source=bl&ots=0rOGUKlrkV&sig=6UA4S52QSjdElnDEXD4pXXqlYf0&hl=it&ei=0Y8fS4WqO4St4Qb5n_zfCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20super%20tube%22%20Moray&f=false




Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Steven Dufresne on December 11, 2009, 01:17:58 AM
@wings,
Thanks. I'm quite familiar with that diagram from Moray King's "Quest for Zero Point Energy". He derives it from Hyde's US patent 4897592 (see attached.) Hyde doesn't show any inductors but for the circuit to serve the function that Moray thinks it serves he adds the inductors.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
PS. I highly recommend that book for anyone who's pursuing tapping ZPE and needs some ideas or stimulation.
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 13, 2009, 01:17:43 AM
@wings,
Thanks. I'm quite familiar with that diagram from Moray King's "Quest for Zero Point Energy". He derives it from Hyde's US patent 4897592 (see attached.) Hyde doesn't show any inductors but for the circuit to serve the function that Moray thinks it serves he adds the inductors.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
PS. I highly recommend that book for anyone who's pursuing tapping ZPE and needs some ideas or stimulation.
Here's the patent:
#4,897,592

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=HX4BAAAAEBAJ&dq=patent:4897592&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap=&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=

Sub-patent references to the main patent above:
#4,622,510
#4,595,852
#4,151,409
#4,127,804
#3,013,201
#2,522,106

--Lee
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on January 08, 2010, 05:58:37 AM
hi everyone good day  ;D

I just want to share this one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjtwZwBaprc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49iwl-GsYaA&feature=related

and this one may help for some body there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb4yiW7MFWM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w1nLaOLtTg&feature=related
Title: Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.
Post by: Khwartz on October 20, 2015, 01:46:41 PM
A lot of people have a hard time with evaluating the current in electrostatic systems.
So i felt the need to discuss the curent of an electrostatic discharge.

Now, when we measure electrostatic voltage potential - what we are actually measuring is a charge relative to some theoretical "zero value" being that of the charge held by the object recieving the discharge. We assume that an earth-ground holds a 'true zero' value.

Unlike current from a constant source, such as a generator or battery, the current from an electrostatic discharge is not constant. It takes the form of a symmetrical triangle-wave: increasing from 0 to peak during the first half of the discharge, then decreasing from peak to 0 during the second half. This makes accurately taking physical measurements of the current rather difficult.
Assymetry in this triangle-wave is a function of ionization of the dieletric and will not be included here.

What we will discuss is the method of calculating the peak current rating of a discharge, which occurs at 1/2 of the discharge-time (T)

To do this, we need to know two values:

1) Total Charge ( in Volts)
and
2) Discharge Time ( in seconds)

From this we can determine the rate of discharge, or change in Volts. 
Essentially:  Total Charge / Time of discharge
for example:
a charge of 13,020 V and a discharge time of 21.7 microseconds
gives us a rate of discharge of 600v per microsecond

The Peak Current of the discharge is:
                A(peak) = 1/2 change-in-V * K
where K is the dielectric constant
in the above example:  1/2 (600V/microsecond) * 1 (the dielectric constant of air)
gives us  300 microamps      below i have drawn how this triangle wave would look on a graph.

The 'mean-current' or average current of the discharge is a bit more complex, one would separate this graph into individual measurements, at say 1us intervals, add them together, then divide by the number of intervals to get the average current throughout the discharge.
which im not going to go through right now, but in this example would be something close to ..... 53 microamps give or take?
Hi sm0ky2 ! Just to tell you that you've made a little confusion: you talk about "charge", "discharge" where you should talk about "voltage", "drop of voltage".

Indeed, if you talk about "charge", it means "coulombs" and the ratio of "discharge" versus time is in coulombs/second, thus amps ;) but pretty sure you knew it :)

Note:

VOLTAGE

is

HOW MUCH A UNIT OF "CHARGE"* IS "ENERGETIC"

in joules/coulomb.

(*a certain number of electrons)

You may not need this note but as I see often basic confusions around, I try to clear up them each time I can :)


But Very Thanks for sharing these formula, I didn't know :)

Regards,
Didier