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Author Topic: Delay line coil for Newman motor?  (Read 11958 times)

Offline MysteriousStranger

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Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« on: June 10, 2009, 06:40:20 AM »
Aloha,

Upon considering the coil design and/or basic theory (such as it is) behind the Newman device, it leads me to say the following to all of you good people:

1. There is little proof the Newman motor works as a net producer of energy.
2. But what if...?

It is that second point that, I think, drives us. And so, with little to do during my dull daytime occupation, I think of many things. I remembered something from the theory behind the Newman machine, where a long coil (read: long as in, length of wire used) was connected to a battery. The electromagnetic disturbance we term 'electricity' (as opposed to electron drift velocity) propagates along the wire at close to c (perhaps 95% c for enameled unshielded wire?). Wires are disconnected and switched while the flowing current, which has still not reached the end of the wire, continues on. Somehow, this is supposed to lead us to free energy. I have no comment on that. What I will suggest to experimenters is this: if you want to enhance this supposed effect, might we try something hearkening back to the old style delay line commonly found in television sets?

A coil of wire is wrapped around a metal foil cylinder, which can be grounded via a variable resistance. When this resistance is tuned closer to ground, the propagation velocity of an electrical signal (or current pulse, in the case of the Newman motor) is slowed significantly. It is this effect which we term "velocity factor" in coaxial cable.

If switching the coil before the electrical disturbance reaches the other end is something important to the Newman machine, might we build a coil that is designed specifically to have a velocity factor much less than c, so as to be able to switch it easier with conventional electronics and/or commutators? Let's say, just as an example, we have a coil for a Newman motor composed of 10,000 turns. The first 100 are wound, and then covered with a layer of conductive aluminum foil, which is grounded. This will slow the rate of electrical propagation in the coil windings. The next 100 turns are wound, followed by another layer of foil, and on and on until the entire coil is wound this way.

What might happen if we tried this?

You can make a coil like this, feed it from a signal generator, and look at the output on an oscilloscope. It is quite interesting.

-Mysterious Stranger-

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 04:34:54 AM »
Aloha,

Upon considering the coil design and/or basic theory (such as it is) behind the Newman device, it leads me to say the following to all of you good people:

1. There is little proof the Newman motor works as a net producer of energy.
2. But what if...?

It is that second point that, I think, drives us. And so, with little to do during my dull daytime occupation, I think of many things. I remembered something from the theory behind the Newman machine, where a long coil (read: long as in, length of wire used) was connected to a battery. The electromagnetic disturbance we term 'electricity' (as opposed to electron drift velocity) propagates along the wire at close to c (perhaps 95% c for enameled unshielded wire?). Wires are disconnected and switched while the flowing current, which has still not reached the end of the wire, continues on. Somehow, this is supposed to lead us to free energy. I have no comment on that. What I will suggest to experimenters is this: if you want to enhance this supposed effect, might we try something hearkening back to the old style delay line commonly found in television sets?

A coil of wire is wrapped around a metal foil cylinder, which can be grounded via a variable resistance. When this resistance is tuned closer to ground, the propagation velocity of an electrical signal (or current pulse, in the case of the Newman motor) is slowed significantly. It is this effect which we term "velocity factor" in coaxial cable.

If switching the coil before the electrical disturbance reaches the other end is something important to the Newman machine, might we build a coil that is designed specifically to have a velocity factor much less than c, so as to be able to switch it easier with conventional electronics and/or commutators? Let's say, just as an example, we have a coil for a Newman motor composed of 10,000 turns. The first 100 are wound, and then covered with a layer of conductive aluminum foil, which is grounded. This will slow the rate of electrical propagation in the coil windings. The next 100 turns are wound, followed by another layer of foil, and on and on until the entire coil is wound this way.

What might happen if we tried this?

You can make a coil like this, feed it from a signal generator, and look at the output on an oscilloscope. It is quite interesting.

-Mysterious Stranger-

I have worked on the Newman Machine for quite sometime. I used to believe that all you need is a larger coil or what have you to have the nice effect, but what I was really doing was changing certain parameters that enhanced the effect that I originally was not aware of. Then I saw Newman's book online:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5MF8ZFAJ

Upon looking at the appendix, it became clear that copper has magnetic moments which could be aligned to produce magnetic fields. However, I soon noticed that this alignment would counteract the voltage source, because diamagnetic materials, including copper, seek to diminish the magnetic field generated. From here, it made more sense to me that both the forward current and backward voltage-spike contributed to the overall magnetic field desired in a Newman motor. The backwards current-spike and forward voltage input had the OPPOSITE AND UNDESIRABLE effect!

Part of my plan for the next month is to create three groups of batteries each individually each connected to a coil; three coils in all. The ends of these three coils will be connected to a multimeter then connected to the commutator through which it will be linked to the three ends of all three battery packs. The key differences and similarities are the following:

SIMILARITIES
1. The volts per turn will be "the same" for the same number of batteries
1a. This means the RPM will NOT CHANGE.
2. The current density in the wire will be "the same".
2a. This means the heat loss in the wires will be "the same".
1&2. Therefore, the power drawn will be "the same".
3. When back-spikes are not occurring, the torque of the motor per given rpm will be the same given the same current density in the wires.
3a. The L/R time constant of the device will not change because potential energy in the magnetic field per given heat loss in the wires will not change.
3ai. Reason: L/R is proportional to (0.5*Inductance*Current^2)/(Resistance*Current^2)

DIFFERENCES
1. The voltage input will be 1/3rd as much and current input will be 3 times as much.
2. The current density at the commutator will TRIPLE.
3. The heat loss at the (low resistance commutator) will increase NINE TIMES.
4. During collapse of the portion of the magnetic field derived from three times the forward current, "the same" magnetic potential energy will be dumped on one times as much stray charge in the circuit over ONE-THIRD AS MUCH the distance, because the coils are divided into three.
4a. The result during back-spikes, on a volume-by-volume basis, is an electric field strength (voltage/distance) THREE TIMES GREATER the result being an energy density of the electric field NINE TIMES GREATER.
4b. The key is for that electric field to be absorbed and converted into magnetic potential energy. This is the result of magnetic moments of copper, which normally cancel each other out, collectively opposing the curl of the magnetic field B created by the PULSE of the E-field (i.e. back EMF). This uses up the electric dipole moments generated from circularly aligned dipole moments of copper at right angles to the incoming electric field and anti-parallel to the curl of the B-field produced by the PULSE. Collectively, the summation of the dipole moments' fields have magnitude surpassing the field of the back-spike, just as a weak magnet fixed to a heavy iron plate can cause a much stronger magnet to rotate toward it.
4c. With special care, an arbitrarily small motor can have arbitrarily high torque, under a SPECIFIC range of circumstances!
4ci. The moments of aligned copper atoms must be dis-aligned following the trail of the back-spike.
4ciA. This heat, but more importantly, the ambient heat, does the WORK to dis-align the circularly arranged copper magnetic moments via disalignment of the electric dipole moments they are derived from, however the heat can only do this after the electric field of the back-EMF has dissipated.
4ciA1. Think of it this way, THE DEVELOPMENT OF turns of current (i.e. INCREASES of electric field or flux) generate a magnetic fields with two poles, and likewise, the ACT of ALIGNING curled lines of magnetic flux also generate ELECTRIC FIELDS WITH TWO POLES!

CONCLUSION: The energy of the Newman machine does NOT come from the copper mass, but the ambient heat absorbed by the copper atoms that does the WORK that restores their potential energy!

Refer to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Energy_Machine_of_Joseph_Newman

Quote from: kmarinas86, wikipedia
n the appendix of his book, The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman, Newman claims that copper is commonly observed to be "weak" or "non-magnetic" because the magnetic moments of copper atoms connect with each other in highly irregular patterns.[9] Specifically, copper is diamagnetic and will respond in opposition to other magnetic fields, whether or not these fields come from within the copper itself. Counter-alignment of the magnetic moments of copper atoms makes the magnetic field of copper very weak.[10] Newman claims that in the coil of his Energy Machine, copper atoms in wire are electrically polarized in a group manner (via the electric dipole moments of their subatomic particles) in a direction opposing a dominant applied electric field vector (i.e. the electric potential supplied by batteries). The magnetic moments of copper atoms align in collective opposition to the circular magnetic field generated by introduction of the dominant electric field, overcoming the tendency for the magnetic moments of copper to cancel each other; that cancellation is what normally keeps the magnetic field within the copper. By known physical laws, the effect produced is a net magnetic field circulating around the wire. Using this reasoning, Newman claims his machines, each with a very heavy electromagnet consisting of miles of thin copper wire, derive magnetic field strength primarily from electron magnetic moments bounded to copper nuclei instead of the conventional means of relying on the magnetic moments derived from orbits of loosely bounded electrons. Newman claims that subjecting a coiled copper wire to high voltage back-spike gives it the capability of being "extremely magnetic", and this becomes realized as long as the kinetic energy of the unbounded electrons is kept low, whether by using longer wire or subjecting the copper to extremely low temperatures, in order to maintain the strength of the magnetic field alignment. Newman claims that all magnetic fields originate from magnetic moments derived from the interaction of subatomic particles. In view of this, Newman claims that his Energy Machine can exchange potential energy to the magnetic field equal to the work done by all charges in the system via the electric field, including bounded electrons in copper, allowing energy output to exceed the electrical potential energy dissipated by unbounded electrons derived from the battery.[9]

According to proponents of the Energy Machine, the most crucial part of the design concerns what happens as a result of mechanical commutation. When the commutator opens, the electromagnet's magnetic field collapses, causing a sudden change in magnetic flux strong enough to cause charges to reverse their direction at a higher voltage and speed than when they were going forward. Despite the current going backwards at that point in time, an associate of Newman claims the magnetic field due to the implementation of the back-voltage maintains the general direction of the rotary movement as would be produced by the initial forward moving current.[11][12] Newman in his book, The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman, argues that the magnetic field derived from alignment of magnetic moments in copper acts in direct opposition to the magnetic field produced by the strong back-voltage generated by breaking the circuit at the commutator, which can thereby generate a magnetic field of the same polarity as the one produced by current going forward from the battery. The back-voltage would have to be backwards and greater so as to store greater electrical energy (by a quadratic function) in polarity opposite of the back-voltage and back-current via alignment of the magnetic moments of copper atoms.[9] As predicted by Kirchhoff's circuit laws, the increase in resistance due to opening the circuit combined with the current stabilizing properties of the inductor create a negative capacitive voltage drop across the inductor, thereby producing a large negative voltage opposing the polarity of the battery, and the more extreme the change, the greater the slew rate of the back-voltage, and this would cause greater strength in the alignment of magnetic moments copper atoms that also rises quicker. For high inductance coils, alignments of magnetic moments in copper would dissipate more slowly relative to the heat (power) dissipated per copper mass via the back-voltage and back-current that acts to unalign the magnetic moments. So, only by a relatively large and quick signal would the back-voltage produce a magnetic field through the electromagnet with the same polarity that would be observed with the initial, forward-moving, current.[9] Newman's associate, who supports Newman's interpretation of the device, made the unlikely claim that the magnetic field strength derived from alignment of magnetic moments of copper atoms facilitated by the back-voltage (a brief electric field pulse opposing battery voltage following an increase in resistance by opening the inductive circuit via the commutator) produces mechanical power in the general direction the same time that heat is also produced from the current in opposition to the battery voltage. This would imply some limited restoration of battery voltage simultaneous to the production of mechanical energy in the same direction as would be derived from current going from the battery.[11]

At large, Newman's most controversial claim is that energy conversion between different forms allows the machine's mechanical rotor output to be greater than what would be suggested by energy drained from the battery bank, while still not being a perpetual motion machine. Newman's independent conclusions are in direct conflict with what scientists understand from the laws of classical electrodynamics applied to motors lacking these unconventional modes of operation, and no articles in respected textbooks or peer reviewed journals make any direct references to them.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 04:37:13 PM by kmarinas86 »

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 09:08:15 PM »
I have worked on the Newman Machine for quite sometime. I used to believe that all you need is a larger coil or what have you to have the nice effect, but what I was really doing was changing certain parameters that enhanced the effect that I originally was not aware of. Then I saw Newman's book online:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5MF8ZFAJ

Upon looking at the appendix, it became clear that copper has magnetic moments which could be aligned to produce magnetic fields. However, I soon noticed that this alignment would counteract the voltage source, because diamagnetic materials, including copper, seek to diminish the magnetic field generated. From here, it made more sense to me that both the forward current and backward voltage-spike contributed to the overall magnetic field desired in a Newman motor. The backwards current-spike and forward voltage input had the OPPOSITE AND UNDESIRABLE effect!

I should clarify:

I originally had one big coil made of three smaller coils connected in series. Now I have three smaller coils connected at the end, not the beginning, in parallel. Before each of the three coils, I have 1/3 of the original battery pack. The voltage per turn is the same because while each pack has one-third the voltage, each is connected to 1/3 of the turns. That is why I expect RPMs to remain the same. Applying 1/3rd the battery pack to 1/3rd as many of the coils results in the same current density in that coil (because the current will be the same and so will the gauge of wire. I have just today connected the coils in this manner, but I have yet to get all my batteries recharged and connected so I can test the idea.

Part of my plan for the next month is to create three groups of batteries each individually each connected to a coil; three coils in all. The ends of these three coils will be connected to a multimeter then connected to the commutator through which it will be linked to the three ends of all three battery packs. The key differences and similarities are the following:

SIMILARITIES
1. The volts per turn will be "the same" for the same number of batteries
1a. This means the RPM will NOT CHANGE.
2. The current density in the wire will be "the same".
2a. This means the heat loss in the wires will be "the same".
1&2. Therefore, the power drawn will be "the same".
3. When back-spikes are not occurring, the torque of the motor per given rpm will be the same given the same current density in the wires.
3a. The L/R time constant of the device will not change because potential energy in the magnetic field per given heat loss in the wires will not change.
3ai. Reason: L/R is proportional to (0.5*Inductance*Current^2)/(Resistance*Current^2)

DIFFERENCES
1. The voltage input will be 1/3rd as much and current input will be 3 times as much.
2. The current density at the commutator will TRIPLE.
3. The heat loss at the (low resistance commutator) will increase NINE TIMES.
4. During collapse of the portion of the magnetic field derived from three times the forward current, "the same" magnetic potential energy will be dumped on one times as much stray charge in the circuit over ONE-THIRD AS MUCH the distance, because the coils are divided into three.
4a. The result during back-spikes, on a volume-by-volume basis, is an electric field strength (voltage/distance) THREE TIMES GREATER the result being an energy density of the electric field NINE TIMES GREATER.
4b. The key is for that electric field to be absorbed and converted into magnetic potential energy. This is the result of magnetic moments of copper, which normally cancel each other out, collectively opposing the curl of the magnetic field B created by the PULSE of the E-field (i.e. back EMF). This uses up the electric dipole moments generated from circularly aligned dipole moments of copper at right angles to the incoming electric field and anti-parallel to the curl of the B-field produced by the PULSE. Collectively, the summation of the dipole moments' fields have magnitude surpassing the field of the back-spike, just as a weak magnet fixed to a heavy iron plate can cause a much stronger magnet to rotate toward it.
4c. With special care, an arbitrarily small motor can have arbitrarily high torque, under a SPECIFIC range of circumstances!
4ci. The moments of aligned copper atoms must be dis-aligned following the trail of the back-spike.
4ciA. This heat, but more importantly, the ambient heat, does the WORK to dis-align the circularly arranged copper magnetic moments via disalignment of the electric dipole moments they are derived from, however the heat can only do this after the electric field of the back-EMF has dissipated.
4ciA1. Think of it this way, THE DEVELOPMENT OF turns of current (i.e. INCREASES of electric field or flux) generate a magnetic fields with two poles, and likewise, the ACT of ALIGNING curled lines of magnetic flux also generate ELECTRIC FIELDS WITH TWO POLES!

CONCLUSION: The energy of the Newman machine does NOT come from the copper mass, but the ambient heat absorbed by the copper atoms that does the WORK that restores their potential energy!

Refer to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Energy_Machine_of_Joseph_Newman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 09:08:15 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 11:00:33 PM »
Looking forward to your results.
Many thanks for the updates !

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 03:54:52 PM »
Looking forward to your results.
Many thanks for the updates !

Results: Not good.

While the voltage was 1/3rd the original setup.
The current went up by about 1.7*3.
Total power in increased by 1.7.
The speed went DOWN 1.7
Residual torque went DOWN as well.
I would say the output fell by 1.7^3 so the efficiency FELL by 9x.

Splitting up the coil and battery pack into parts in a Newman motor: MY BAD IDEA (Not Newman's Idea).

I got it working again in the more efficient setup with only one coil and one pack.  :P

I guess I have only two choices to further progess: Increase the voltage and increase the fan diameter =P.

__________________________________________________

Below is a plan I made in the last week which I hope to finish in the next month:

I can get a scaled up version of my fan (METAL) for $200 and it is 32" so will do (32/19.375)^5 or 12 times the work per revolution at the same rpm. I predict that the rpm will fall as follows:

(32/19.375)^5/y^2 = (((10/9)y)^2-1^2)/((10/9)^2-1^2)

Solve for y:

((10/9)^2-1^2)*(32/19.375)^5 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1^2)
(0.234568)*(32/19.375)^5 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1)
2.882771 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1)
2.882771 = (10/9)^2y^4-y^2
0 = (10/9)y^4-y^2-2.882771
y^2=1.986
y=1.41

(1-1/1.41) = a 29% drop in rpm relative to 19.375" fan setup

This assumes:
1) Adding the 19.375 inch fan, where there used to be none, drops the rpm by 10%
2) The torque will increase by the square of the current
3) The current will increase inversely to the rpm (assuming that period << inductance/resistance)

(32/19.375)^5/y^2 = Increase in torque = 8.7 times
(32/19.375)^5/y^3 = Increase in power = 6.2 times
(32/19.375)^5/y^4 = Increase in efficiency = 4.4 times
(32/19.375)/y = Increase in fan tip speed = 1.2 times

To get the same efficiency increase by increasing the voltage, I would have to increase voltage by 4.4 times! But at that point, I am likely to be in the regime of magnetic saturation, and to bypass that, I would have to further increase the coils....

The maximum increase in efficiency I can get with this method is:

((10/9)^2-(1/y)^2)/((10/9)^2-1^2) = 5.26

Which increases with larger y.

This is assuming that adding the 19.375" fan blade decreases the rpm by (1-1/(10/9)) or 10%.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 04:39:24 PM by kmarinas86 »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 03:54:52 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 04:06:27 PM »
Higher voltages and more wire ( more total wire DC resistance) will increase efficiency
while keeping the input power constant.

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 07:48:20 AM »
Results: Not good.

While the voltage was 1/3rd the original setup.
The current went up by about 1.7*3.
Total power in increased by 1.7.
The speed went DOWN 1.7
Residual torque went DOWN as well.
I would say the output fell by 1.7^3 so the efficiency FELL by 9x.

Splitting up the coil and battery pack into parts in a Newman motor: MY BAD IDEA (Not Newman's Idea).

Now I figure it is time to explain these negative results which appeared quite contrary to my explanations.

It appears that the field intensity (telsas) produced in each coil increased by sqrt(3) times. This increased magnetic flux over the course of the rotation by the sqrt(3). The result was a fall in rpm by sqrt(3). Now according to this, the torque driving the motor must have increased by 3 (assuming the motor is operating well below the magnetic saturation point).

This mode of operation seemed completely unnecessary, because with the prior setup I could have instead attached a fan which requires 3 times as much torque to operate at the same lower rpm. Such a larger fan could have done better to convert the otherwise underutilized static (sound) pressure in the rotor system into velocity pressure.

Why did the current increase by sqrt(3)? I do not know how my division of the coil into connecting the three coils in parallel rather than series could lead to this kind of result. What I do know is that there is an increase of the acceleration of current relative to the acceleration of the rotor. This probably has to do with a reduced time L/R constant designated to each coil and its charge flow.

The prior setup is what I still have, and with one final semester of school to complete, I remain hesitant to buy the $200 32" metallic fan blade. I am sure that with the new "vibrating" commutator I have, I will have many small back-emf spikes that can adapt to future fan sizes.

I got it working again in the more efficient setup with only one coil and one pack.  :P

I guess I have only two choices to further progess: Increase the voltage and increase the fan diameter =P.

The following is still my plan:

__________________________________________________

Below is a plan I made in the last week which I hope to finish in the next month:

I can get a scaled up version of my fan (METAL) for $200 and it is 32" so will do (32/19.375)^5 or 12 times the work per revolution at the same rpm. I predict that the rpm will fall as follows:

(32/19.375)^5/y^2 = (((10/9)y)^2-1^2)/((10/9)^2-1^2)

Solve for y:

((10/9)^2-1^2)*(32/19.375)^5 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1^2)
(0.234568)*(32/19.375)^5 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1)
2.882771 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1)
2.882771 = (10/9)^2y^4-y^2
0 = (10/9)y^4-y^2-2.882771
y^2=1.986
y=1.41

(1-1/1.41) = a 29% drop in rpm relative to 19.375" fan setup

This assumes:
1) Adding the 19.375 inch fan, where there used to be none, drops the rpm by 10%
2) The torque will increase by the square of the current
3) The current will increase inversely to the rpm (assuming that period << inductance/resistance)

(32/19.375)^5/y^2 = Increase in torque = 8.7 times
(32/19.375)^5/y^3 = Increase in power = 6.2 times
(32/19.375)^5/y^4 = Increase in efficiency = 4.4 times
(32/19.375)/y = Increase in fan tip speed = 1.2 times

To get the same efficiency increase by increasing the voltage, I would have to increase voltage by 4.4 times! But at that point, I am likely to be in the regime of magnetic saturation, and to bypass that, I would have to further increase the coils....

The maximum increase in efficiency I can get with this method is:

((10/9)^2-(1/y)^2)/((10/9)^2-1^2) = 5.26

Which increases with larger y.

This is assuming that adding the 19.375" fan blade decreases the rpm by (1-1/(10/9)) or 10%.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 09:00:12 AM by kmarinas86 »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 07:48:20 AM »
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Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2009, 04:57:19 PM »
I finally bought the 32" metallic fan blade!  ;D

It will ship via UPS ground. I will have it setup maybe in two weeks and post a video on Youtube soon after.

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 09:08:23 PM »
Newman Motor with 32 inch fan blade between 8 to 11 watts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10W7qIxoNUo

144 Volts before load (before machine is turned on)
133 Volts before batteries recover from load (soon after the machine is turned off)

133 Volts / (95 RPM=best case for this voltage) = 1.4 volts per rpm

An earlier setup (19.375" fan blade) ran at 240 RPM with 217 Volts or = 0.9 volts per rpm

1.56x drop in rpm per volt with fan (Prediction was 1.4x)

With half the number of batteries, as shown in the video above, the rpm is cut down to 46RPM.

Below is a plan I made in the last week which I hope to finish in the next month:

I can get a scaled up version of my fan (METAL) for $200 and it is 32" so will do (32/19.375)^5 or 12 times the work per revolution at the same rpm. I predict that the rpm will fall as follows:

(32/19.375)^5/y^2 = (((10/9)y)^2-1^2)/((10/9)^2-1^2)

Solve for y:

((10/9)^2-1^2)*(32/19.375)^5 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1^2)
(0.234568)*(32/19.375)^5 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1)
2.882771 = y^2(((10/9)y)^2-1)
2.882771 = (10/9)^2y^4-y^2
0 = (10/9)y^4-y^2-2.882771
y^2=1.986
y=1.41

(1-1/1.41) = a 29% drop in rpm relative to 19.375" fan setup

This assumes:
1) Adding the 19.375 inch fan, where there used to be none, drops the rpm by 10%
2) The torque will increase by the square of the current
3) The current will increase inversely to the rpm (assuming that period << inductance/resistance)

(32/19.375)^5/y^2 = Increase in torque = 8.7 times
(32/19.375)^5/y^3 = Increase in power = 6.2 times
(32/19.375)^5/y^4 = Increase in efficiency = 4.4 times
(32/19.375)/y = Increase in fan tip speed = 1.2 times

To get the same efficiency increase by increasing the voltage, I would have to increase voltage by 4.4 times! But at that point, I am likely to be in the regime of magnetic saturation, and to bypass that, I would have to further increase the coils....

The maximum increase in efficiency I can get with this method is:

((10/9)^2-(1/y)^2)/((10/9)^2-1^2) = 5.26

Which increases with larger y.

This is assuming that adding the 19.375" fan blade decreases the rpm by (1-1/(10/9)) or 10%.

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 09:08:23 PM »
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Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 08:33:55 AM »
A few months ago, I thought that adding the second carbon brush at the switch (the back end of the shaft of my motor) sounded like a good idea for my project.

It turns out however it draws more current (four times as much - with no particular meaning to the 4 factor I think) than I needed to and drains the motor down without improving the torque or rpm. It would draw something like 0.16 amps when 300 volts were used.

With the larger 32" fan, doubling the voltage only increases the rpm from 95RPM to 140RPM.

I have gone back to the commutator where the switch uses a wire connected directly to the battery pack. This did not affect much the rpm per volt, however the current did fall significantly (now back to 0.04 amps). The problem I had with it earlier (i.e. keeping it in position) is no longer an issue with the remedy that I made when I added the second carbon brush.

I know that without a fan at all, the RPM at 300V increases to 370RPM which is peculiar to the new setup. For just prior to this the top RPM at 300V was only 300RPM and dropping only 10% with the small fan load - that is, with poor alignment and a very damaged commutator wire).

With the larger fan, the rpm in the new setup drops by >60%! It appears that as much as the small fan was outgrown by the large motor, the larger fan has easily outgrown the motor as it is. I plan to the clean up the coil sometime in December. A few segments of my middle-level coil (neither the top or bottom) is burnt out (all contiguous and has been that way for the better part of 2009), but thank goodness it is segmented, so I can just remove it and that should help improve the speed again. I may add one or two coils on the top for a total of either 4 or 5 coils. This will surely bring down when no fan is loaded the RPM per volt but I do know that RPM drop will be cut significantly. Perhaps the rpm drop % will be reduced in half (i.e. 30% drop from top rpm).

For four or five coils, I estimate that the RPM will be 160 using 300 volts. The output would be the same as my smaller fan spinning at 369RPM (Calculation = 160RPM*((32"/19.375")^5)^(1/3)). The fastest my smaller fan ever spun was 340 RPM and that is with 2/3rds the voltage. However, that is not accounting for the better flow of air around my much larger fan which extends further out from the motor. It also ignores the possibility that my current can fall significantly as soon as the new changes are made. I hope to see 0.02 amps usage again. Which would mean less power (6 watts only!).

To help balance the top coils, I will also reduce the height the raised supports (which are actually excess AA battery holders, black in color) that are holding the magnet and rod away from the top of the coil. The greater proximity may mean that I should not need a fifth coil. We will see though.

I have not released a video showing the problem with the new commutator with the large 32" fan at 300V... the results sucked without comparison to anything I produced with the exception of the setup described just a few posts above (i.e. putting the coils in parallel powered by parallel battery packs, of which I have (unregrettably) no video of whatsoever).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 09:05:14 AM by kmarinas86 »

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 05:34:09 PM »
I plan to the clean up the coil sometime in December. A few segments of my middle-level coil (neither the top or bottom) is burnt out (all contiguous and has been that way for the better part of 2009), but thank goodness it is segmented, so I can just remove it and that should help improve the speed again.

False alarm! It turns out that these wires still conduct electricity as normal. They were just connected in the wrong way. I have already cleaned out the three remaining coils and I plan to install the fourth coil my next day off from work (Sunday, September 27, 2009).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 05:59:46 PM by kmarinas86 »

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 05:34:09 PM »
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Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 06:25:33 PM »
False alarm! It turns out that these wires still conduct electricity as normal. They were just connected in the wrong way.

Or maybe not...

I discovered that if I damage the conductivity of some wires, it can be temporary. This Monday, I came back to discover that a wire I damaged earlier this month was working again. This would explain why that I initially observed that some of my wires stopped conducting electricity (I didn't assume that it was permanent though). In the end, it was not a false alarm after all. However, it was also true that the wires needed fixing, though that had nothing to do with the conductivity of each individual wire.

I have already cleaned out the three remaining coils and I plan to install the fourth coil my next day off from work (Sunday, September 27, 2009).

It turns out that I did manage to make the video by that following Sunday, but I did not upload the video until Wednesday September 30:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7eXyz6F-QA

On Monday October 6, I finally cut the length of the gap in half. I do not have a video of this yet because I am waiting for my batteries to be freshly recharged. I expect this to add to efficiency gains of adding the fourth coil. I hope to draw less than 10 watts at around 150 RPM. After adding another coil, I will probably increase the voltage to the 350's.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 08:51:01 PM by kmarinas86 »

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Delay line coil for Newman motor?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 05:19:05 PM »
On Monday October 6, I finally cut the length of the gap in half. I do not have a video of this yet because I am waiting for my batteries to be freshly recharged. I expect this to add to efficiency gains of adding the fourth coil. I hope to draw less than 10 watts at around 150 RPM. After adding another coil, I will probably increase the voltage to the 350's.

I have a video of this now at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cIzmhjIK5I

(October 13, 2009)

It turns out that this simple change did not increase the speed of the fan, but it does have a greater mechanical impedance. I believe that lack of speed increase is because the greater torque is not enough to compensate for the increase voltage induction into the wires. However. I hypothesize that when I add two more coils to the top, that the increase in torque will be more significant than the increase in voltage induction per rpm. I know for certain that this will drop the no-load rpm.

Is there enough mechanical load on the system to justify the belief that the rpm will increase when I add more coils?

Two possible outcomes:

1) The RPM increases.
* If this occurs, I expect the current to fall slightly. I expect the speed to reach at 150RPM.
2) The RPM falls.
* If this occurs, I expect the current to at least be cut in half, with a little bit more torque with almost imperceptible drop in RPM.

How would I respond to each situation:

1) Progress with the motor is close to being saturated. The next motor will emphasize using more copper (in excess of 30 lbs) in a more compact, "squared" coil.
2) Progress with the motor is not saturated. I should add more voltage to the system in the future. Details of a possible future design should be investigated later.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 05:40:33 PM by kmarinas86 »

 

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