Ok then i_Ron.  It's far from accurate, but you get the idea.

If anyone here is confused, let me shed some light on the situation.
For a purely inductive coil, Tinsel Koala and iRon are correct. (Voltage is zero at top dead center)

Thane is claiming voltage is not zero. This is because Thane's high voltage coils have a significant capacitive component, due to the larger number of turns. As the magnet approaches the coil, this capacitance is charging up, so at top dead center, there will be a voltage. The true circuit here, is much more like a LC circuit (or more accurately, RLC circuit), where voltage and current are no longer in phase (power factor).

snip

Derricka and Larry,

Yes I am open to this... but it has to be explained against the actual coil operation. There are two generated peaks, one positive and one negative. To just focus on the one peak that might be delayed until TDC and not account for what is happening to the other peak is imprecise.

What my contention with Steven and Thane was in their view there was only one major peak at TDC. My concern with Thane's presentations are that he has only ever stated DC coil resistance, never Henries, never A B scope pictures of HV coils with HC coils showing any phase delays. It takes major amounts of capacitance to make an LC circuit yet no numbers for this supposed capacitance have ever been shown.

Ron

Derricka and Larry,

I was wondering more along the iron theme. What about the propagation delay of the flux in iron at these speeds?

The reason being, if you missed my earlier post, when I used Somaloy there was no core loss reduction...rather an increase in draw with the coil shorted.

OK, the first test with the laminated core and a 63 ohm coil... with the circuit open the draw was 15 watts. With the coil shorted the draw was only 4.42 watts.

However, with the Somaloy core the draw was only about 4 watts to start with and shorting the coil increased the draw!

Quote

This test should indicate that it is iron that is required, not capacitance.

So what I am saying is, if the flux buildup in the core is delayed then so also will the voltage buildup in the coil… in respect to the magnets position.

Ron

Derricka and Larry,

I was wondering more along the iron theme. What about the propagation delay of the flux in iron at these speeds?

The reason being, if you missed my earlier post, when I used Somaloy there was no core loss reduction...rather an increase in draw with the coil shorted.

 OK, the first test with the laminated core and a 63 ohm coil... with the circuit open the draw was 15 watts. With the coil shorted the draw was only 4.42 watts.

However, with the Somaloy core the draw was only about 4 watts to start with and shorting the coil increased the draw!

This test should indicate that it is iron that is required, not capacitance.

So what I am saying is, if the flux buildup in the core is delayed then so also will the voltage buildup in the coil… in respect to the magnets position.

Ron

Interesting you should mention the flux buildup delay. I once placed steel ball bearings on very tiny Neo magnets, and noticed the delay in repulsion, of another rapidly approaching Neo magnet. Like Thanes rotor, it exhibited a "critical speed" effect. I think the iron has an effect on magnetic flux change, similar to a capacitors effect on voltage change. Still, this is no guarantee of a free energy lunch.  I agree, that to sort out the different effects in Thane's coils, more types of measurements need to be taken. If we can't convince Thane to make the extra measurements (for his own good), all we can do is our own research. 

I think you people are missing Thane's main point:

From Wiki under parasitic capacitance:

For example, an inductor often acts as though it includes a parallel capacitor, because of its closely spaced windings. When a potential difference exists across the coil, wires lying adjacent to each other at different potentials are affected by each other's electric field. They act like the plates of a capacitor, and store charge. Any change in the voltage across the coil requires extra current to charge and discharge these small 'capacitors'. When the voltage doesn't change very quickly, as in low frequency circuits, the extra current is usually negligible, but when the voltage is changing quickly the extra current is large and can dominate the operation of the circuit.


Thane is maximizing the parasitic capacitance and it is discharging at TDC to produce the acceleration.


Regards Larry,

PS: just noticed that derricka beat me to it, but the parasitic capacitance observation is important.

LarrySEE and DERRIKAinmyheadlights,

I COULD JUST KISS YOU GUYS!!!
(assuming you are guys)

ANY FAILURE TO GET THIS POINT ACROSS UP TO THIS POINT HAS BEEN MY FAILURE - SO THANK YOU FOR FINALLY GETTING IT - YOU MADE MY FREAKING DAY!

THANKS
T

PS
I_WRONG AND HARD_TOE,

IF YOUR PRIDE WILL ALLOW YOU TO WIPE SOME OF THAT EGG OFF YOUR FACES YOU MIGHT SEE THE LIGHT ALSO.

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."
- George Bernard Shaw
 

I agree, the gif image clearly says generator, as opposed to alternator.
The commutator effectively takes the negative right hand portion of iRons oscilloscope
trace, and flips it upward, to show the rectified sinewave output, shown in Thane's image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutator_(electric)

I am not making this up you know... it is just that there is all kinds of info on "conventional" generators but little on pulse coil generation... until you look with the proper criteria...

"Now we come to an important feature of a coil when it is used as a SENSOR.
When a magnet passes a coil (this includes the action of moving towards or away from a coil), a voltage is generated in the turns in the form of a sinewave.

The same type of waveform is produced if the magnet passes the end of the coil, into and out of the end of the coil or if the magnet passes through the centre.

The first is the voltage produced by the coil as it passes the end of the coil.
When the magnet is directly opposite the end of the coil, the change in magnetic flux is zero and thus the voltage produced by the coil is zero.
The second point is the change in voltage produced by the coil. The output voltage changes from positive to negative during the very small portion of excursion when the magnet moves from a forward to reverse direction as seen by the end of the coil."

http://talkingelectronics.com/projects/Inductor/Inductor-3.html


Ron

Yep, and inspection of the Faraday law of induction or the Maxwell-Faraday vector equation, shows that as the field is increasing (magnet pole approaching coil) the polarity of the induced voltage is one way, and as the magnet comes to TDC (point of closest approach) the induced voltage is zero, and as the magnet recedes from the coil the polarity is now opposite.  Just like the oscilloscope trace shows from i_ron's experiment. Just imagine how the flux lines look at a loop of the coil. Constant=zero voltage. Increasing lines=voltage in one polarity. Decreasing lines=voltage the other polarity.

But the point about the phase of the voltage in the circuit being affected by parasitic (and other) capacitance is a good one. Unfortunately the amount of capacitance necessary to achieve the effect claimed varies as the frequency, that is, it must be tuned to the speed of the magnet's passage, to achieve the "choke" and kickback effect. I think.  Maybe.

Isn't it current that creates the magnetic field?

Another question I have is; is there any coil winding configurations that are better than others as far as delaying the current yet provide for a strong reactive field? Since high voltage coils do the trick they generally are higher in
impedance.

Take care.

nap