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### Author Topic: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications  (Read 326737 times)

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1009
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2009, 03:56:25 PM »
I am with mr T. regarding voltage and magnet possitioning, although i do not agree fully. I have some experience with same pollar generators (as my current setup is) and they create a full sine wave of less amptitude than alternating pole setup. (Note that between magnets, no matter what the spacing is there is a scallar opposite pole of less power)

Anyway, at TDC voltage is not zero.

Could not be zero.
If voltage was zero then Peripeteia (as well as many other devices) could never work, since impedance has choked current and afterwards, no voltage exists to push electrons in the desired direction.

So following this reasoning we can conclude safely there is voltage at TDC.

Regards,
Baroutologos
Zero is not the same as nought. In AC it is the relative point between negative and positive voltage vectors, the sum of which is zero volts.

I'll stick with Faraday   LOL  ..... oh and I_ron      Cheers

#### i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1167
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2009, 05:22:19 PM »
Zero is not the same as nought. In AC it is the relative point between negative and positive voltage vectors, the sum of which is zero volts.

I'll stick with Faraday   LOL  ..... oh and I_ron      Cheers

I am aghast!!! Such confusion over over such a basic fact of life.

And so simple to prove. Take one magnet and one coil with a core (bolt, nails, laminations, what ever...) con nect your old ana log volt meter to the coil, OK

Now take the magnet and sit it on top of the coil. Maximum flux through the coil, right?  Zero volts (and zero am ps,lol) on the meter.

Now pick the magnet off and watch the meter as your approach the coil... the meter will swing up (with the right pole) and as you go over TDC will reverse direction and as you recede with the magnet will try to swing down.

As in the answer to #7..."A rotor lined up with the stator poles would result in maximum flux (Ï†) through those poles, but not maximum rate-of-flux-change over time ([(dÏ†)/dt])."

the maximum induced voltage and polarity,has to do with speed and direction of flux change.

Now just go and do the experiment and think about what you see...

Ron

#### Pageygeeza

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 61
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2009, 05:32:57 PM »
Now I really didn't expect this from such a simple question. lol

I'm inclined to agree with i_Ron anyway.  Taking things to their most simplistic levels, it make more logical sense.  The way I look at is like this:  A coil of wire doesn't have a magnetic flux until power is applied, so to use it in a generator it is inert.  So to pass a north facing magnet across it from one side the current will flow all the way around in one direction, as the magnet hits the center it's not passing over any wire, so nothing is created.  Then it moves across the other side, as it moves away thus making the current flow in the opposite direction.

Ramming clever sounding words into the mix just confuses things.  Personally, I think this is probably the most simplistic way of looking at it.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2009, 06:08:56 PM »
"The induced electromotive force or EMF in any closed circuit is equal to the time rate of change of the magnetic flux through the circuit."

So if the time rate of change of the flux is zero, the induced voltage is zero.
And at TDC of a magnetic piston, the magnet is not moving, therefore the time rate of change of its flux in the wire (or coil) is zero. Therefore the induced voltage is zero.

This is Faraday's law of induction, perhaps the oldest EXPERIMENTALLY VERIFIED law of electromagnetism there is.

It is also the third of Maxwell's Equations: the Faraday-Maxwell Equation, which states that the curl of E is equal to the negative time rate of change of the B field.

#### petersone

• Full Member
• Posts: 209
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2009, 06:58:37 PM »
Hi Pageygeeza
I thing I have to agree with you,anything going in one direction,then going in the opposite direction,must,at some point,between the two states, be stationary,unless I am missing something.
peter

#### Pageygeeza

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 61
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2009, 07:30:14 PM »
To me, Electromagnetics is probably one of the most easiest to understand if broken down to a simple level.  I can't understand why it has to be made complicated, it's not, imo.

#### i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1167
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2009, 07:35:38 PM »

This is Faraday's law of induction, perhaps the oldest EXPERIMENTALLY VERIFIED law of electromagnetism there is.

Exactly! What some people seem to have missed is that the polarity of the induced voltage is always dependent on the
direction of motion as is attested to by Fleming's Right Hand Rule.

So it is, or should be, a simple observation that in a generator
the magnet can never always approach the coil. IF the magnet always approached the coil then you could have a DC output. But in real life the approach is always 50% which causes one polarity... then a retreat of 50%, which cause the opposite polarity,... with a neutral or zero induction at the point of direction change.

Didn't mean to run with your post TK, but was sort of answering Papeygeeza and petersone at the same time, lol

Ron

#### Nali2001

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 385
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2009, 07:45:16 PM »
Well what I see is when a magnet is approaching a coil, the field 'delivered' to the coil becomes more and more until tdc is reached and amusing we have a steady motion and are operating below saturation you will see a voltage increase until tdc and when the magnet goes past that tdc the field change is happening again, but in reverse so, this time from high to increasingly low.

#### Pageygeeza

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 61
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2009, 07:51:16 PM »
It is possible to make the magnet constantly move towards the coil.

#### Pageygeeza

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 61
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2009, 07:55:31 PM »
Right guys, i'm off for a walk to get rid of this head-ache.

#### i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1167
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2009, 08:58:56 PM »
Well what I see is when a magnet is approaching a coil, the field 'delivered' to the coil becomes more and more until tdc is reached and amusing we have a steady motion and are operating below saturation you will see a voltage increase until tdc and when the magnet goes past that tdc the field change is happening again, but in reverse so, this time from high to increasingly low.

A single conductor is shown thus when passing through a steady field. But the point in question here is that of a magnet passing over a coil.

You can see the action in this animation, unfortunately it depicts a magnet entering into a coil but notice the peak in one direction then the fall to zero as the magnet stops... well in a coil with the magnet passing over the coil the same thing happens. The magnet generates a peak on approach and as the motion, from the point of view of the coil, changes then a zero induction occurs, then a peak as the magnet recedes.

Ron

#### Pageygeeza

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 61
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2009, 09:29:48 PM »
@i_Ron:  Dude, do we have to draw them pictures?

#### i_ron

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1167
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2009, 10:20:25 PM »
But the point in question here is that of a magnet passing over a coil.

Ron

Steven, Thane, and others, the great stumbling block with the voltage (peak of the sine wave) rising up at TDC is you are only accounting for one half of the sine. Your theory must have a south pole coming along next to generate the opposite half of the sine.

But the actual fact, and you can easily do this experiment, just one pole is generating BOTH halves of the sine wave.

Here is a little demo for you... I have taken an old rotor and put one magnet on it. I have spun it up in the lathe, as it doesn't mind being a little out of balance. You can see that one north pole in this case generates both halves of the sine!

I am afraid your theory doesn't account for this.

Observation:

A single pole generates both sides of the sine wave.

Conclusions:

The positive going pulse in this case is generated as the magnet enters the coil and ramps down to zero at TDC. On leaving the coil a negative going pulse is generated.

Ron

Pageygeeza, a picture is worth a thousand words!

#### derricka

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 156
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2009, 10:40:00 PM »
If anyone here is confused, let me shed some light on the situation.
For a purely inductive coil, Tinsel Koala and iRon are correct. (Voltage is zero at top dead center)

Thane is claiming voltage is not zero. This is because Thane's high voltage coils have a significant capacitive component, due to the larger number of turns. As the magnet approaches the coil, this capacitance is charging up, so at top dead center, there will be a voltage. The true circuit here, is much more like a LC circuit (or more accurately, RLC circuit), where voltage and current are no longer in phase (power factor).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

#### LarryC

• Hero Member
• Posts: 911
##### Re: Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2009, 10:50:26 PM »
I think you people are missing Thane's main point:

Thane quotes:

â€œTHE IMPEDANCE HAS TO BE HIGH ENOUGH TO JUST "CHOKE" THE CURRENT AND CAUSE THE COIL TO ACT LIKE A CAPACITOR AND NOT AN INDUCTOR SO THE INDUCTIVE REACTANCE HAS TO BE HIGHER NOT LOWER.

THE RESISTANCE OF THE COIL SHOULD NOT BE TOO HIGH OR YOU WON'T GET A GOOD STRONG MAGNETIC FIELD WHEN THE COIL CAPACITANCE DISCHARGES.â€

â€œI AM PUTTING THIS HERE SO PEOPLE WILL INDERSTAND HOW THE HV COIL CAUSES ACCELERATION.

AT TOP DEAD CENTRE I.E. "when the coil/core is directly over the magnet" THE MAGNET IS NEITHER APPROACHING NOR RECEDING FROM THE COIL/CORE AND THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IN THE COIL IS MAXIMUM.

IT IS ONLY WHEN THE MAGNET IS APPROACHING OR RECEDING AWAY FROM THE COIL/CORE THAT THERE IS IMPEDANCE (AC RESISTANCE) IN THE COIL AND MINIMAL CURRENT FLOW.

AT TDC THE INDUCTIVE REACTANCE IS ZERO (COIL'S FREQUENCY DEPENDANT AC RESISTANCE) AND THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE (INDUCTIVE REACTANCE + DC RESISTANCE) TO CURRENT FLOW DROPS TO THE DC RESISTANCE OF THE COIL.

SO NOW AT TDC WHEN THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM (NOT ZERO) AND THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE IS MINIMAL - MAXIMUM CURRENT CAN FLOW AND PRODUCE THE MAXIMUM DELAYED MAGNETIC FIELD REQUIRED TO PUSH THE NOW REDEEDING MAGNET AWAY WITH ADDITIONAL FORCE.â€

From Wiki under parasitic capacitance:

For example, an inductor often acts as though it includes a parallel capacitor, because of its closely spaced windings. When a potential difference exists across the coil, wires lying adjacent to each other at different potentials are affected by each other's electric field. They act like the plates of a capacitor, and store charge. Any change in the voltage across the coil requires extra current to charge and discharge these small 'capacitors'. When the voltage doesn't change very quickly, as in low frequency circuits, the extra current is usually negligible, but when the voltage is changing quickly the extra current is large and can dominate the operation of the circuit.

Thane is maximizing the parasitic capacitance and it is discharging at TDC to produce the acceleration.

Regards Larry,

PS: just noticed that derricka beat me to it, but the parasitic capacitance observation is important.