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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: SkyWatcher123 on May 24, 2009, 09:12:43 PM

Title: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 24, 2009, 09:12:43 PM
Hi folks, this thread is based on a simple generator principle that im sure others have already discovered, however after tests with a simple design i built it seems to work rather well and has very little cogging drag. I originally built it to test flux gate generator principles where a piece of metal or bolt in this case passes between a stationary coil-core and a stationary permanent magnet to generate voltage/current, however what I have found is that if the magnet is placed at the back or other end of coil-core the generated voltage is almost the same and the cogging drops to a very low level. So whats happening I assume is that as the bolt or iron, etc. passes the stationary coil-core with permanent magnet placed at back side of core, the neutral or bloch wall of the permanent magnets field is shifted more towards the rotor gap or just simply reduces the flux density in the coil-core and then expands again which emulates the expanding and collapsing magnetic field required for induction and with very low drag and no lentz drag either because only steel is rotating. If anyone else has experimented with anything similar or has any thoughts please share them, thanks. Here is a cad pic of the simple layout.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 24, 2009, 09:45:58 PM
Hi Skywatch123
I have tried similar setups,and found,along with others,that the Lenz effect is the same as any other genny,there is no relative movement between coil and mag. but the iron becomes a temperally a mag.so no difference.But good luck.
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 25, 2009, 12:38:26 AM
Hi Peter, thanks for reply. Not sure exactly what you built and tested, maybe if you described it in more detail your words would have more meaning, however i know for a fact this design and the flux gate completion designs cause no lentz drag because i have built both, so whatever it is you tested must not have have been the same or you overlooked something in testing. Also what your saying sounds plausible however understand that there is only one source of magnetic field and that is on the stator similar to Peter Lindemanns no back emf motors, the passive rotor steel does not cause counter emf or in this case lentz drag and even if as you say the rotor steel piece becomes magnetized and causes lentz it would have to saturate the steel, if not saturated it would tend to be attracted negating lentz. And since my results prove there is no lentz drag, theories only go so far in reality. Hope this helps to make more sense of things and you might want to do some more experiments.
peace love light
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 25, 2009, 12:53:03 AM
Hi Sky
I would be very interested to know how it is possible,if a north pole,be it mag. or iron,approaches a coil,the coil will produce a north pole,if you have found a way round it,please tell,I think the Elkin Brown genny is a similar idea,but it was shown to have the usual Lenz probs.You can reduce the Lenz prob.but proportionally the juice!!
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 25, 2009, 01:22:37 AM
Hi Peter, i just did tell my thoughts on the generators and it seems you would rather evade the points i made derived from  experimental evidence, if you would like to have a real conversation I'm here.
peace love light   
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 25, 2009, 01:38:13 AM
Hi Sky
I'm not trying to evade anything,I am trying to learn from you,if you have something that works,great!! and well done,only I haven't found it. One thing I don't understand,and you maybe able to tell me,is,in the formulas for coils they only consider amps,not volts,when we want watts,so,it must be better make 10v/1 amp to make 10 watts,than 1v/10 amps.
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 25, 2009, 09:46:02 AM
Hi Peter, I'm not sure the question your asking me. The voltage to current ratios would be a design choice.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 25, 2009, 10:30:48 AM
Hi Sky
If the idea is to produce the max.watts with the least effort,then high volts/low amps seems to be best way,as I think Thane found.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: capthook on May 25, 2009, 05:53:32 PM
Hi Skywatcher - thanks for sharing.
I'm of the notion to agree with petersone.

The bolt is becoming magnetized as it passes.  The will create a changing magnetic field in the coil, creating a (small) current.  The coil will create a field that OPPOSES the change, per LENZ.

I might suppose your setup is not large enough/enough coils/enough power to have noticed the LENZ drag?
Have you done a spin-down test?
Under identical spin/thrust conditions:
How long for the blank disk to spin-down?
How long for the spin-down with the bolts?

I think if you have better tests/measurement you will find that LENZ drag is still present.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 25, 2009, 07:32:46 PM
HI All
The only way I know to get more watts out for "free" is to try and get the coil to produce more volts,as I understand it, they are "free".So,very high volts,very low amps,the exact geometry of coil/mag./speed,is more than I can manage,except by trial and error,mainly error.
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 26, 2009, 01:14:17 AM
Hi folks, thanks for replies. You know one of the gifts of life is you are given a choice to believe whatever you wish, even if reality is contrary to ones beliefs, however it is my opinion that each individuated soul finds it's own truth.
capt.hook: you may think whatever you wish, until you yourself build something for real you'll never know, all i can tell you is i have built other units that generated multiple amps and above 10 watts and still input amps did not change when loading generator coils. As for the spin down tests, removing the bolts would skew the tests results because of windage so not a good idea, also input amps only rise slightly when magnets are on the device compared to not on the device, hence very low cogging and with better core materials would be lower.
Hi Peter, I don't know what to say about the voltage aspect, maybe if you can relate some of your own hands on tests, that would help.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 26, 2009, 01:29:50 AM
Hi Sky
The voltage thing,all I am saying is,as far as I know,if generate 10v@1amp=10w
but there will be no more drag if you can generate 100v@1a=100w.I think.
If you have found a way to generate with out Lenz you are bound to get OU!!
I think!!
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 26, 2009, 02:40:52 AM
Hi Peter, well in this design and the other flux gate designs it would not matter what the ratios are to get 10 watts or 100 watts or 1000 watts as long as the mechanisms causing lentz to be a non-issue are adhered to. Perpetia i have replicated, and it works as Thane has shown, whatever the function, it's just that i wanted much lower cogging and no-lentz from the first rpm onwards so the idea I'm showing seems to work well. Granted power output is not very high yet but the potential is there. 
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 26, 2009, 10:07:45 AM
Hi Sky
Yes the Perpetia is an interesting one,if the delayed current is pushing the mag. away,but that only happens above a curtain hz.
What about iron losses in your setup?
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 26, 2009, 11:54:44 AM
Hi Peter, I would imagine since I'm using steel bolts for now, it would probably have the same type of losses as normal generators, although different materials or laminates would help that. I was testing different things today like if more ferro material in the rotor pieces yields greater voltage in the coils and it does but probably only to a limit based on permanent magnets strength and saturation. Also It seems the current generated starts at almost no rpm at ramps up to almost the max current for the given coils with very little rpm. I lit a couple of leds to almost full brightness on the 2 coils while barely turning the rotor by hand maybe 100 rpm.
peace love light
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 26, 2009, 12:04:18 PM
Hi Sky
Sounds good,but remember you are drawing very little amps with leds,what is it like when the coils are shorted?
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: Harmonic33 on May 26, 2009, 12:34:52 PM
Skywatcher123.
Many if us are interested i'm sure in knowing more about your current rig ie: how many coils / type of coils / inputs / output @ rpms of......... and any other info your willing to share......
Keep up the great work.

Pete. thanx for your input for clarity sake. (As always  ;))

Dan.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 27, 2009, 12:06:40 AM
Hi folks, thanks for the replies and interest.
Hi Peter, Of course yes thats not much of a load but I had already tested with shorted coils and still no input increase just failed to mention it yet until someone was interested enough.
Hi Harmonic, right now I'm testing only with the 2 coils as shown in the cad pic posted with 16 rotor bolts. the coil cores have the same size steel bolts as rotor and the 2 stator coils use 24 awg wire, each coil is about 6 ohms, and there is a stack of neo's at the back of each coil-core of 1" dia. X 1/2", when coils are wired in parallel max shorted amps are 100 milliamps, open circuit voltage in parallel spinning by hand is 2.5volts, when using a drive motor at 12v at about 800 rpm with about 1.8 amp input, keep in mind freewheeling without magnets attached is only 10-20 millamps below that input which means it has low drag, the volts are just over 5 volts at around 800 rpm. What is really interesting to me so far beside the no lentz drag is that the max amps ramp up at very very low rpms compared to any generator I've ever built or know of and I think it is because there is not a second source of moving magnetic field on the rotor to interfere with the coils generation, akin to no counter emf reluctance motors.
hope that helps some, any more comments or questions are welcome. Understand also right now I'm trying different things to maximize output then later it can be scaled with many more coil-cores for more output.
peace love light
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 27, 2009, 12:18:23 AM
here is a pic of the generator.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 27, 2009, 11:36:37 AM
Hi Sky
Nice simple,straight forward setup,been trying to compute your numbers,not my strong point,to say the least,but I don't think there are enough yet,but I'm sure you will give them in the fullness of time.Look forward to the next episode.
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 27, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
Hi Peter, thanks for replies and compliments. I have some ideas on how to improve the design and hopefully get more output. Though thus far I am able to light up 12 leds and could probably light more, with the 2 coils in series spun by hand, these are the smaller christmas leds.
peace love light
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 30, 2009, 07:16:08 AM
Hi folks, just thought I'd show the 2 coils so far powering 12 leds spinning by hand at about 500 rpm.
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: petersone on May 30, 2009, 09:52:30 AM
Hi Sky
Good going,pleased to see you are still at it,it will be nice to have some numbers, that will tell us what it's doing,maybe soon?
Good luck,happy hunting.
peter
Title: Re: Flux density altering/No lentz/Low cog generator
Post by: i_ron on July 19, 2010, 06:54:57 PM
Hi folks, just thought I'd show the 2 coils so far powering 12 leds spinning by hand at about 500 rpm.

Hi Sky,

If I can continue on with your thread? I have changed the design somewhat but with the magnets on the back of the core still.

Results:

1) two cores and coils, single magnet on each core, no back block...

   Coils in parallel... 9 volts DC @ .1 amp for .9 watt output

2) Same as above but with the back block installed
   
    20 volts Dc @ .2 amp for 4 watts output - approx 3.6 watt draw on PM

3) As above except two magnets each core (magnets are 1 inch dia by           
    1/8th inch thick)

     25.34 volts DC @ .25 amps for 6,3 watts output - 4.8 watts on PM

4)  as above except three magnets each core, an added brace to the riser,    and a slight reduction to the gap...

 33,4 volts DC @ .34 amps for 11.3 watts output  - 7.2 watts additional draw on PM (input)

Construction: the cores are up off the aluminum plate on 1/4 inch phenolic pads with a phenolic joining strip across the tops of the cores. The cores are just MOT laminations.

Conclusion:

Lenz is still apparent but possibly reduced?

However, there are 14 watts core drag I must add in here which defeats the purpose rather quickly. 20 watts cost to make 11.3 watts

Ron