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Author Topic: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface  (Read 52347 times)

Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2009, 02:24:32 AM »

Quote from: Magluvin on May 21, 2009, 08:07:26 AM

Set the magnet to slide down. If flux is flowing into the Al. from the pole facing it, then dragged through the Al. due to the magnet in motion,being bent  upward/dragged/held back from where it came, the exit point of the aluminum would be higher in the aluminum, above the magnet, thus a change in the path of flux from the norm.
But, if flowing out from the outer pole of the magnet, the one thats not facing the Al., then the flux direction is not influenced by the Al. drag before entering the Al. So the  point of entering and exiting will be in different from each other.

Oc said...

Are you trying to say that Lenz law is viscous? That there's a delay? Or that the oppositional field is actually created before the magnet arrives?

What Im trying to convey is, IF flux is comprised of flowing particles, then there must be direction.
We say the word, field, without going further than that. If flux has particle flow, the force that attracts and repels THE particles themselves, MAY not follow Lenz laws, except relative to where the particle is at the time.
So if particle flow exists, then the particle is going to be traveling, into the moving aluminum, out of the moving  aluminum, yet the force that caries it is constant, and the particle cannot be in the aluminum and in the free air at the same time.
Lets say we get rid of the particle, can we say it wouldnt make a difference either way?
What else could it be?

Magluvin

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2009, 02:34:24 AM »
@TK,
nice vid, you mentioned above that earth flux is pretty negligible compared to the mag flux. Do you think this ratio of flux strengths is in the same ballpark to the ratio of observed forces (braking force/seperation force)?

I have no idea. I would guess not, since the BH product of these magnets is pretty darn high and that means a heck of a lot of standard flux lines in there, and only 4 from the earth, it's probably 5 or six orders of magnitude difference, we're talking parts per million here I think. And the repulsion  to braking force ratio is much much higher than that I think and can be strong enough to levitate the magnet completely. The eddy drag and levitating forces should be orthogonal, I think...
Quote
Errm... The quoted vid does not demonstrate the asymetric behaviour being discussed?
Not only that but he describes it incorrectly. Electromagnetic drag? Well, I suppose. That's like calling Chartres Cathedral a building. It's correct, as far as it goes, I suppose...

Yucca

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2009, 02:50:25 AM »
I have no idea. I would guess not, since the BH product of these magnets is pretty darn high and that means a heck of a lot of standard flux lines in there, and only 4 from the earth, it's probably 5 or six orders of magnitude difference, we're talking parts per million here I think. And the repulsion  to braking force ratio is much much higher than that I think and can be strong enough to levitate the magnet completely. The eddy drag and levitating forces should be orthogonal, I think.

Thanks for the info.

One more quick question:

Do you think thereÂ´s a chance the seperation force could somehow be seperated from the lenz braking force, say with lamination techniques etc? I suppose a better way of asking is: do you think the (braking/seperation) ratio could be varied with the aim of minimising braking and possibly making the seperation force the strongest?

WilbyInebriated

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3141
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2009, 02:55:29 AM »
Errm... The quoted vid does not demonstrate the asymetric behaviour being discussed?
edit: woops, AbbaRue already said this.
yeah, errm... you must have missed my response to abbarue also then.
my bad though i did say experts, which infers all of you and my sarcasm was actually directed at just one person.

Yucca

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2009, 03:04:03 AM »
yeah, errm... you must have missed my response to abbarue also then.
my bad though i did say experts, which infers all of you and my sarcasm was actually directed at just one person.

Lol, no worries.

note to self:

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2009, 03:30:13 AM »
obviously...
the point is, if you 'play' with magnets, even a little, you stumble upon this (not new) phenom...
if you didn't, well, you're not very creative, imaginative or deductive.

Hmmm--an incorrect assumption, and we all know what happens when you "assume" something. I have shown this phenomenon to several people who have demonstrated their creativity, imagination and logical ability over and over again, and they are amazed by it. So at least some creative imaginatory clear thinkers, who have played with magnets a lot haven't noticed it before.
Therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.

If it's such an ordinary thing, why is it capturing the imagination of those who have them?

And if you've known about it all along, surely you've documented your prior knowledge with a video, a post on a forum somewhere, even a lab notebook page. Somewhere. Surely.

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2009, 03:42:59 AM »
Thanks for the info.

One more quick question:

Do you think thereÂ´s a chance the seperation force could somehow be seperated from the lenz braking force, say with lamination techniques etc? I suppose a better way of asking is: do you think the (braking/seperation) ratio could be varied with the aim of minimising braking and possibly making the seperation force the strongest?

Well, as I see it the repulsion is a consequence of the whole Lenz/eddy thing. I mean, moving magnet induces circular currents in the conductor, orthogonal to the motion of the magnet. The current curls orthogonally to the field of the magnet.  Barring relativistic effects, the motion of the magnet should not lead or lag the current circles--disk really, I suppose. The circulating current is accompanied by its own orthogonal magnetic field which is in opposition to the field of the magnet. It is the resistance to the current in the current disk in the slide material that produces the drag force, and it is the repulsion of that current's mag field to the magnet's field that lifts the magnet (or conversely the conductor).
All that seems well understood, I think. And it would seem that the only way to separate the forces of drag and lift would be, well, to get rid of the electrical resistance in the disk. I wonder how we could do that...No, wait, I know...

But what I do not know is why the effect we are talking about in this thread is asymmetric WRT polarity of the magnet. Is that in Wilby's or Abba's posts? Because if it is, I don't see it.

0c

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 278
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2009, 03:45:15 AM »
Is there anybody out there with some simulation software that might show this effect?

0c

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 278
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2009, 04:07:41 AM »
It is the resistance to the current in the current disk in the slide material that produces the drag force,

Actually, I think the drag increases with less resistance. The more electrically conductive the material, the greater the current flow, the greater the effect.

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2009, 05:14:48 AM »
Actually, I think the drag increases with less resistance. The more electrically conductive the material, the greater the current flow, the greater the effect.

I don't believe I said anything about the nature of the relationship. The drag is caused by and related to the resistance; it represents the energy lost in Joule heating of the slide. But sure, the more current flow, the more Joule heating--even in the same resistance. Move faster, you get more voltage. Same resistance, the slide's the same material still. So you get more current, hence more drag. The drag force goes up with relative velocity even when the resistance remains the same. But in thicker material there is more conductor cutting flux; less bulk resistance overall, but way more current--hence more drag. The relationship isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
But it really isn't current flowing around in a ring like a circle around the location of the magnet, though, I don't think. Isn't it more like a disk, centered on the magnet's position, of tiny tight vortices, where the conduction electrons are whirling around the field force lines? So why don't their accompanying fields just cancel the original field by pushing it out, thus killing the whole effect, thus allowing the effect to begin, thus...
Uh, oh. Better go freshen the beverage.

But anyway I don't think the bulk resistance is effective against eddys in the same way that resistance to a current in a wire is, for example.

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/foucaultdisk/index.html

WilbyInebriated

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3141
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2009, 05:16:57 AM »
Hmmm--an incorrect assumption, and we all know what happens when you "assume" something. I have shown this phenomenon to several people who have demonstrated their creativity, imagination and logical ability over and over again, and they are amazed by it. So at least some creative imaginatory clear thinkers, who have played with magnets a lot haven't noticed it before.
Therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.

If it's such an ordinary thing, why is it capturing the imagination of those who have them?

And if you've known about it all along, surely you've documented your prior knowledge with a video, a post on a forum somewhere, even a lab notebook page. Somewhere. Surely.
as i said, anyone, IF they have played around with magnets, even a little, will stumble on this (not new) phenom.

your allegedly "creative, imaginative and logical" friends that didn't put two and two together and do a little more than the 'eddy brake' experiment (ie: lets see what happens when we try this, or this, or that) aren't very creative, imaginative or logical after all...
if they were they would have stumbled on this long ago.
therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
Q.E.D.

why is it capturing the attention ( not imagination ) of these friends of yours that aren't as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are? that's pretty easy, because they are not as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are. we already covered this...

oh there's no video.  damn, well i guess no one has done it then...
is that irony or sarcasm that the queen of faked videos is asking for a video? you're joking. surely.

WilbyInebriated

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3141
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2009, 05:19:19 AM »
@tk what's with the rotation video? that's more old news you know...
but go on with your bad self. from your vid clip: "should i repeat it?" yeah yeah, you better. this is big news!!

oh goody, look there's a video from 2006... well that's that then, someone HAS done this before, there is video proof even.

the rotation is obvious. no audio, sorry. the prof. demonstrating it isn't quite as interested in hearing himself talk as you are tk. he keeps messing with the magnet, but the rotation is there none the less.

so again, if you can't put two and two together and deduce what comes next or even be bothered to observe the experiment when shown to you in college, you aren't as creative, imaginative, deductive or logical as you think you are.

p.s. still waiting for your debunking of stiffler. you got 50 years of experience and scorched fingertips to boot according to your own claims, should be a walk in the park for you to show how stiffler is conning us all. it sure wouldn't cost you \$900 and 80 hours of your time like this magnet stuff. oh yeah that's right your concentrating on the, how did you say it to me? "concentrating on the easy stuff: gravity wheels, magnet motors, and buoyancy drives (and you can see how hard it is even with these obvious losers)"
that's funny, that you like playing with these "obvious losers", so nice of you to say that about them too.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 05:47:52 AM by WilbyInebriated »

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2009, 05:45:52 AM »
@tk what's with the rotation video? that's more old news you know...
but go on with your bad self. from your vid clip: "should i repeat it?" yeah yeah, you better. this is big news!!

oh goody, look theres a video from 2006... well that's that then, someone HAS done this before, there is video proof even.

the rotation is obvious. no audio, sorry. the prof. demonstrating it isn't quite as interested in hearing himself talk as you are tk. he keeps messing with the magnet, but the rotation is there none the less.

so again, if you can't put two and two together and deduce what comes next or even be bothered to observe the experiment when shown to you in college, you aren't as creative, imaginative, deductive or logical as you think you are.

p.s. still waiting for your debunking of stiffler. you got 50 years of experience and scorched fingertips to boot according to your own claims, should be a walk in the park for you to show how stiffler is conning us all. it sure wouldn't cost you \$900 and 80 hours of your time like this magnet stuff. oh yeah that's right your concentrating on the, how did you say it to me? "concentrating on the easy stuff: gravity wheels, magnet motors, and buoyancy drives (and you can see how hard it is even with these obvious losers)"

Yep, that's what I said all right.
And anybody can show you Meissner effect levitation and show the magnet rotating. Not too many have seen it spontaneously START rotating like in my video. I did not discover the effect; you will see that I cited references to peer-reviewed articles, when you learn to read. You r video is CLEARLY not demonstrating the effect I am showing and the maker of the video CLEARLY doesn't even know about it.
Stiffler is afraid of me, he would ban me instantly and you know it. Besides, I'm not interested. Now go away, this place was a lot more pleasant while you were gone.

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2009, 05:48:30 AM »
as i said, anyone, IF they have played around with magnets, even a little, will stumble on this (not new) phenom.

your allegedly "creative, imaginative and logical" friends that didn't put two and two together and do a little more than the 'eddy brake' experiment (ie: lets see what happens when we try this, or this, or that) aren't very creative, imaginative or logical after all...
if they were they would have stumbled on this long ago.
therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
Q.E.D.

why is it capturing the attention ( not imagination ) of these friends of yours that aren't as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are? that's pretty easy, because they are not as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are. we already covered this...

oh there's no video.  damn, well i guess no one has done it then...
is that irony or sarcasm that the queen of faked videos is asking for a video? you're joking. surely.

Didn't we have this flame war before? But you went away. Were you temporarily banned, or something? Because you cannot seem to discuss the issues, you just want to flame and hijack theads. Do you have something to contribute besides a bad odor?

TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
Re: Magnetic braking of magnets sliding along a sloped aluminum surface
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2009, 05:50:29 AM »
as i said, anyone, IF they have played around with magnets, even a little, will stumble on this (not new) phenom.

your allegedly "creative, imaginative and logical" friends that didn't put two and two together and do a little more than the 'eddy brake' experiment (ie: lets see what happens when we try this, or this, or that) aren't very creative, imaginative or logical after all...
if they were they would have stumbled on this long ago.
therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
Q.E.D.

why is it capturing the attention ( not imagination ) of these friends of yours that aren't as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are? that's pretty easy, because they are not as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are. we already covered this...

oh there's no video.  damn, well i guess no one has done it then...
is that irony or sarcasm that the queen of faked videos is asking for a video? you're joking. surely.

And I said,

And if you've known about it all along, surely you've documented your prior knowledge with a video, a post on a forum somewhere, even a lab notebook page. Somewhere. Surely.

And you said jack.