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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models  (Read 7805 times)

Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2009, 06:07:14 PM »

Release is near 11 o clock (eject) where it is caught in the ramp and where according to him the extra energy comes from.


Not sure you are right:
I believe Abeling rightly said the extra energy was build up from lowest left and spend at top left....?

ruggero

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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2009, 11:53:01 PM »
Not sure you are right:
I believe Abeling rightly said the extra energy was build up from lowest left and spend at top left....?

ruggero

Exactly what I am seeing, release at 11 buildup just after six...

Stay tuned.

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2009, 12:19:17 AM »
So, at 11 the spring start to unload by entending after compression? Would the neutral length of the spring be between the shortest and longest distance the 2 weight vary, or is the tension one-sided?

[Semi off-topic.] Supposing springs are the secret and solution to PPM here, would then not also a horizontal plane setup be possible with just a magnetic pull from one side?
Or better: a "gravity wheel system" mounted flat on a spinning disc, having centrifugal force provide the "pull" on the entire system? Or would gravity have a unique feature to it allowing to "cheat" the laws of physics as we so elimentary seem to understand them to date? When I think of it, if we can reduce friction, putting a gravity powered perpetuum mobile in a centrifuge should increase its power output? Would running the centrifuge not be an extremely efficient "power source"? Once at speed, the centrifuge can sustain a "gravity like" power output of multiple G's at only the cost of friction to be overcome. Running on magnets, and being an aerodynamic shape with smart final coating, I see possibilities there. People have been trying to harness CF for as long as trying to harsess gravity alomst I suppose. When we get the latter, the former could become a no-brainer to boost things.
CF from a cetrifuge I suppose is like gravity, but being spat out from the center of the rotation. Slightly differnt vectors than with gravity, but with a small system on a large wheel, this could be reduced. Or, one could figure out a gravity wheel where it's actually convenient to not have "gravity" "pointing" the same direction everywhere. Let me know if this line of thinking is worth its own topic.
[/semi off topic]

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2009, 12:19:17 AM »
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Offline stgpcm

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 11:43:39 AM »
Centrifugal force is unlikely to be the source of the free energy.

A mathematician will tell you there is no such thing as centrifugal force: what you perceive as centrifugal force is the force needed to provide a acceleration/deceleration to alter the momentum of the object to change it's direction of motion.

Or to put it a simpler way, the centrifugal force is energy you put in somewhere else and is stored as momentum, until it is returned. (Like a spring, except without fatigue and losses to heat.)

The good news is, just like the guides and slots, as long as you can determine the actual path of the weights, you can ignore the  actual causes of the object following that path, and so calculate still calculate the torques supplied/required  - a force moving due to "centrifugal force" (or lack of centripetal acceleration as a mathematician would say)


Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 12:06:08 PM »
Posting error, initially a redundant post.

I'll just add that I feel there's enough to be improve on the basic springless, single dumbell weight design. IMHO, slots that see the weight get behind it's rim position on the rise, are less likely to work than the opposite, getting ahead on the rise. I posted more on this in the other threads, and if there ignored I may post a seperate thread for it, to propose foremost the most simple improvements to the Dusty/Eisenficker2000 designs, and then offer some further option to go about trying to get this wheel to turn.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 12:06:08 PM »
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Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2009, 03:39:29 PM »
Centrifugal force is unlikely to be the source of the free energy.

A mathematician will tell you there is no such thing as centrifugal force: what you perceive as centrifugal force is the force needed to provide a acceleration/deceleration to alter the momentum of the object to change it's direction of motion.

Or to put it a simpler way, the centrifugal force is energy you put in somewhere else and is stored as momentum, until it is returned. (Like a spring, except without fatigue and losses to heat.)

The good news is, just like the guides and slots, as long as you can determine the actual path of the weights, you can ignore the  actual causes of the object following that path, and so calculate still calculate the torques supplied/required  - a force moving due to "centrifugal force" (or lack of centripetal acceleration as a mathematician would say)

Then can you explain why most trap throwing equipment uses a accumulated CF force sling method. The trap is set in the middle when the arm is at rest, then thrown out when the arm is at center forward.

You could block the end, then put the trap on the end and stop it at a point to let it fly off at a tangent, but it doesn't go as far.

Better example is a test centrifuge, except put the chair at midpoint on a rail that lets it slide out to the edge. Bring it up to an rpm that a subject could handle if the chair was at the outer position. Release the chair and after the impact scrape the subject off the chair. :D Any volunteers?

It is the accumulated acceleration caused by CF from middle to edge that makes the impact much higher then just the CF force at the edge.

Regards, Larry   

Offline stgpcm

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2009, 04:03:04 PM »
Springs suck. They operate by deforming under stress. That deformation wastes some of the energy put in as heat When compressing the spring you increase the reaction forces in the components driving that compression, increasing friction.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2009, 04:03:04 PM »
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Offline stgpcm

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2009, 04:27:43 PM »
Then can you explain why most trap throwing equipment uses a accumulated CF force sling method. The trap is set in the middle when the arm is at rest, then thrown out when the arm is at center forward.
1. slingshot - moving the pivot point gives you some lovely mechanical advantage.
2. spin, that design puts a lovely spin on the clay, letting it frisbee.
3. by putting a block  at the end you're either shortening the arm, (by the radius of the disc), or adding extra mass at the arm away from the pivot, soaking more energy to accelerate it
4. by putting a trap in to stop the arm, you're prematurely stopped it's operation - there was energy left in that spring.

Quote
Better example is a test centrifuge, except put the chair at midpoint on a rail that lets it slide out to the edge. Bring it up to an rpm that a subject could handle if the chair was at the outer position. Release the chair and after the impact scrape the subject off the chair. :D Any volunteers?
you certainly would go splat - all the acceleration you could take in a quater turn has just been delivered to you an instant. That hasn't change the total amount of acceleration, just how quickly it was delivered
Quote
It is the accumulated acceleration caused by CF from middle to edge that makes the impact much higher then just the CF force at the edge.
Most of us call accumulated acceleration "momentum", and yes, by allowing the chair to slide, some of the force is turned into angular momentum, but the rest into linear. at the moment you hit the rim all of the linear momentum is delivered as an impulse.

A half pound weight can sit on top of a tomato all day. If you lift it 5 meters above the tomato, then release, it accumulates acceleration (or would you prefer me to say it accumulates gravity?) which it then imparts to the tomato after about a second.

Regards, Larry
[/quote]

Offline stgpcm

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2009, 05:47:32 PM »
In a end of arm scenario, the centripetal acceleration is provided by the end stop, which applies the force perpendicular to the circular motion, so it is all dispersed as strain - in effect the only time 100% of the torque is being applied to accelerate the disk is at the moment it is released.  So for a 90 degree swing you gain about 1/root(2) of the work you put in when you cocked the arm.

In the thrower, no centripetal force is applied, so you gain all  the work you put in when you cocked the arm. Further, as you pointed out, the disk leaves  thrower releases at around 135 degrees, so for the same cocking torque you can put an extra 50% of work into the spring. Now, in reality, the  speed of the disk from the thrower is going to be less than the theoretical 3/root(2) times the tangential arm, but with a well designed system it should get close.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2009, 05:47:32 PM »
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Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2009, 12:17:08 AM »
In a end of arm scenario, the centripetal acceleration is provided by the end stop, which applies the force perpendicular to the circular motion, so it is all dispersed as strain - in effect the only time 100% of the torque is being applied to accelerate the disk is at the moment it is released.  So for a 90 degree swing you gain about 1/root(2) of the work you put in when you cocked the arm.

In the thrower, no centripetal force is applied, so you gain all  the work you put in when you cocked the arm. Further, as you pointed out, the disk leaves  thrower releases at around 135 degrees, so for the same cocking torque you can put an extra 50% of work into the spring. Now, in reality, the  speed of the disk from the thrower is going to be less than the theoretical 3/root(2) times the tangential arm, but with a well designed system it should get close.

Actually, the equipment in both of my cases would swing 135 degrees. For the tangent thrower it could still have a extended edge to cause a rotation. It still would not throw further than the accumulated acceleration CF sling version. 

BTW, your root(2) notation is unusual, did you mean sqrt of 2 or an array named root where you wish to divide by the value of the second member in the array?

Regards, Larry

Offline stgpcm

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2009, 03:06:18 AM »
Actually, the equipment in both of my cases would swing 135 degrees. For the tangent thrower it could still have a extended edge to cause a rotation. It still would not throw further than the accumulated acceleration CF sling version. 

BTW, your root(2) notation is unusual, did you mean sqrt of 2 or an array named root where you wish to divide by the value of the second member in the array?

Regards, Larry

I meant the square root - so the non-centripetal thrower would (ideally) throw over twice as far as the tangential thrower.

A tangential launcher rotating 135 degrees will throw less far (for the same input work) than one rotating through 90 - for the first 45 degrees both components of the acceleration are in the opposite direction to the final throw, and need to worked against - hence are completely wasted. In the real world this has some benefits to reduce the losses inherent in a system where the arm and disk are not perectly inelastic, and the spring can't contract instanteously, but your 135 degree tangential thrower would throw the same distance as the 90 degree thrower for the same cocking force (but which would half as much again cocking work for the 135 tangential thrower than the 90 degree one)

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2009, 03:06:18 AM »
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