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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models  (Read 7900 times)

Offline AquariuZ

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Please use this thread for discussion on virtual modelling & calculations of the Abeling wheel.

The old thread suggested usage is general discussion.

Thanks

AZ

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Offline eisenficker2000

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 05:27:07 PM »
Just a simplified model in VB to calculate, give a rough idea, about the torque involved.
Straight slots, no "hockeysticks" at the end.
The track geometry, is almost the same, as my model.

One weight is calculated, the other 8 positions are added and stored, so after 1 turn, the combined torque can be "plotted".

So it is easy (for me) to change the weights, or the number of weights.

What is clear, is that as it is a static model, is that friction plays a big role. This is supported by the patent of Abeling, where he shows some attempts to minimize the role of friction in figure 6.

So in NO way this is a perfect model, it is full of holes. It shows to me that practically it is almost impossible, because of friction, to get the wheel to run on static forces alone. For me proof that it will not be a self starter for sure.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 10:32:14 PM »
Just a simplified model in VB to calculate, give a rough idea, about the torque involved.
Straight slots, no "hockeysticks" at the end.
The track geometry, is almost the same, as my model.

One weight is calculated, the other 8 positions are added and stored, so after 1 turn, the combined torque can be "plotted".

So it is easy (for me) to change the weights, or the number of weights.

What is clear, is that as it is a static model, is that friction plays a big role. This is supported by the patent of Abeling, where he shows some attempts to minimize the role of friction in figure 6.

So in NO way this is a perfect model, it is full of holes. It shows to me that practically it is almost impossible, because of friction, to get the wheel to run on static forces alone. For me proof that it will not be a self starter for sure.

Cannot seem to run this:

MSCOMCTL.OSX is missing?

Anything I can do in WM2d while I wait for materials for another project?

Would be happy to give another go at a few models.

AZ

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 10:32:14 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 10:34:06 PM »
Wow!  That is a nice little program.  I envy you your skills with VB!

M.

Offline eisenficker2000

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 11:47:22 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 09:05:12 PM »
@AquariuZ try it after installing this: Vbrun60sp6 from
http://www.microsoft.com/Downloads/details.aspx?familyid=7B9BA261-7A9C-43E7-9117-F673077FFB3C&displaylang=en

It works, thanks.

Impressive program... I am still thinking on how a spring could connect two sets of dumbbells and release its force on the left top side to launch the upper part of the set.


Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2009, 12:26:49 PM »
Comment by Cloxxi:

Quote
Springs of course press as hard back as do press forward. Would you propose using a "locked" position in the rise column to lose less on the back end than is won on the front? And would the second weight then be dragged along?
I may be mis-understanding oyu, but it sure is interesting.

I've done some sketching, based on non-connected weight, and found that the slot configuation can make vital differences in how the weights and wheel behave.
My current understanding is, that a flow can be devised, where velocities, heights and potentials all work in harmony. It's a game of phases and their counter-phase. Getting the most from the lower ramp. For instance: high release velocity at start of bottom ramp. The wheel can't help past this point, and IMHO shouldn't. Just let the weight roll on on its own some. To get optimal velocity at the lowest point, the counter weight will better not be taking too much energy from the wheel at that moment. So either it's just being slammed in its hook, or it's at least not draining energy from the lower weight anymore.
Next idea that's becoming more persistent in my mind, is that the "shot put" action might have to come from the wheel's inertia, not from the other weight. The wheel may need to have some positive mass to it. In case of 8 weight, perhaps this factor will be less of a problem.
HOWEVER if I would be correct, that we need optimal speed at the lowest point, then Abeling's explanation makes sence : "2 weights, one doing the work to raise the other", or something along that line. In a system of 1 wheel and 2 weights, when on it off the hweel, the other weight and the wheel together can do some serious work for a period of time, thus for a number of degrees. The speed variance that we see with just 2 weights MAY be what's making this possible to begin with. The wheel's weight vs. that of the dumbells may need to be very well balanced to get the desired effect.

Oh, about phases. The timing of fases will be hugely different for a Dusty-style thin part-of-circle slots, versus "spokes", and let along "offset spokes".
My sketches and visualizations seem to now point out that we want the 6-8:00 weight to get BEHIND. The getting behind saves serious energy, allows the wheel to store that, and release it when the slot has the raising weight play catch up, aided by a counter weight in optimum pulling phase, and a wheel ready to give a nice nudge in the back.
(The "getting behind" feature would totally complement my idea of pivoting rods. I proposed a setup before, where a pivoting rod, at roughly 75% of it's length, the weight being at the very end, would allow the weight to comply to the circle, and catch back up when so required to. Weight would not really be "off" the wheel, just not taking energy from it on the first part of the upswing. If the rod IS a spring, or incorperates one, there's some more explosive energy to be stored and put to good use.)


Anyway,
Short : the slots might need to start at 0-3-6-9:00, and at the hub be well off-center, CCW (back). The part of circle shape is nice, gives dramatic slinging at the top, but may be "over the top". And, get the timing wrong, and it will just fall apart.

I wish I had the skills to draw and simulate this like you guys.

Regarding the weights, I'd suggest using roller around the bearingss to achieve greater diameter. Slot will need to be wider too. Friction will be greatly reduced. Much less spinning and bouncing. Bearings themselves will work more efficiently, too.

Cloxxi,

Imagine a round spring with no ends and two weights attached to it where the distance between the weights is half the length of the spring.

Now imagine an egg, place one weight on the top of the egg and one on the bottom, coming sideways, now start turning the weights CW.

This is the movement I am thinking of, where somehow the contraction of the spring between 9 and 11 o clock gives an extra boost to the top weight, effectively shot putting it into the curve which ends the holding shaft.

Bit hard to explain.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2009, 12:26:49 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2009, 12:44:33 PM »
Something like this.

The dumbbells are connected in pairs with a spring through the shafts
The dumbbells are pulled around the egg
The spring releases (contracts) and ejects the dumbbells

8 dumbbells with a hole in the shaft
4 springs
One egg

Omitted the wheel with the hockeysticks but yes, this is still part of the setup.

Acceleration starts after 9 as the spring contracts and is at full contraction at 11.

Abelings words:
"The weights are applied two by two: one weight is pushing/falling, the other one has to be lifted. Due to the invention of the dual lifting system , the falling/pushing weight will hardly be hindered by the weight that has to be lifted. In the topleft of the system the weight is accelerated (like with shot put). The weight is moving faster than the system, and as the system catches the weight it is propelled forward."

I say the ommitted part from the patent is a simple spring system.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 01:06:28 PM »
What if there are eight springs with hooks, one hook connected to a ring on the shaft, one hook connected to the shaft of the dumbbell?

Thats even better.

Now how do I start to simulate this.

Hmmmmmmmmm

Initial crummy model attached.  8)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 01:06:28 PM »
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Offline eisenficker2000

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 10:43:39 PM »
Just an Abeling alike, the old concentric circle model, which shows very nice the effect from the angle between the slot and the track.

As for launching and springs. I think the less external forces, like track and ramps and the more internal..Forces by smart systems or energy collectors like springs, are more likely to be successful.

I think of Bob Kostoff. Although in the end the needed energy comes from an electric compressor. I doubt if the needed energy to run that is delivered by Kostoff's concept.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 10:49:48 PM »
At ironhumper (lol) nice model

wm2d and springs are still a mystery to me but I will figure it out eventually.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 10:49:48 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 12:56:20 AM »
Just a reminder "The weight of the bodies together with ... (intentionally omitted) and the rotational velocity determine the amount of energy that can be generated."

Could the blank be: the flexibility of the springs???

I hope I can ask Mondrasek some questions about the use of springs in wm2d when needed....

AZ

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 10:07:28 PM »
Fire away.  But I must warn you, they are one of the most difficult items to use correctly as far as I have seen.  And they kill even the fastest CPUs.

Also, I am by no means a WM2D expert.  I can only comment on what I've already experienced and theorize based on some experience with other simulation programs.  But I'm happy to give my opinion and will try to note it as such when it is not actually "fact".

M.

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2009, 03:55:43 PM »
@AquariuZ:
I like you spring ideas. Right now I can't choose between springs hooking to weight or to the central shaft. In a totally symmetrical system, the effect woudl eb about the same I think.
Nice about the springs, if those would be the key, is that they'd make it a self-starter most likely.
I start to wonder about the ramp layouts then though. Forces might often be inward.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel VIRTUAL replications and models
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2009, 04:25:20 PM »
@AquariuZ:
I like you spring ideas. Right now I can't choose between springs hooking to weight or to the central shaft. In a totally symmetrical system, the effect woudl eb about the same I think.
Nice about the springs, if those would be the key, is that they'd make it a self-starter most likely.
I start to wonder about the ramp layouts then though. Forces might often be inward.

If I take Abeling´s hints literally, it would be two opposite dumbbells connected to each other via their respective shafts... Egg and ramps as in Fig 2, 3,4.

No working model I can present yet...

ONE IS PUSHING ONE IS PULLING

Release is near 11 o clock (eject) where it is caught in the ramp and where according to him the extra energy comes from.

Definite self-starter...

 

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