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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Alexioco on May 01, 2009, 11:27:44 PM

Title: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 01, 2009, 11:27:44 PM
Hello all, I have a book with 32 mechanisms for a single weight to apply its own weight into lifting itself upwards therefore becoming light... Each design is a result of hard study... I have just made one of them and it does some special things and I thought I could share this with you to see what you think...

Below is an equal seesaw that pivots on a stand.
A weight hangs on a piece of string which runs up and over a pulley attached to the right hand side of the seesaw, then running down to the pulley attached to the stand and then up to the left hand side of the seesaw to which the string is attached.

The weight aplies its weight to the right hand side of the seesaw and also gives an equal downward pull to the left hand side of the seesaw creating a balance with just one single weight!

If you push the left hand side of the seesaw down, it takes hardly any effort causing the weight to slowly rise, once you stop pushing down on the left hand side of the seesaw, the weight does not fall back down but retains its height at any point of the lift. Also, an interesting thing to note is that when the weight is slightly raised, its slightly easier to push the left hand side of the seesaw down (lifting the weight) than it is to push the right hand side of the seesaw down (lowering the weight)...

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 12:22:06 AM
thanks Alexioco....looks simple to try out
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 01:25:06 AM
I made a picture...I like pictures   :P

From what Alexioco has said about this .... that regardless what load weight is used ...it will balance.  No matter if you use 1,10 or 100 kilos

the work to move the load up should very little and basically same for any weight.

Even when the load is off the device it is balanced and can return to a low position to pick more weight.

...now to go prove myself wrong :P
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 01:37:37 AM
Hey, looks quite an interesting idea, few more things to note though, when the left side of the lever goes down and the right side goes up the string is being lowered but not as fast the the seesaw goes up therefore it lifts, but the weight does not lift very high, so you would nee a bigger seesaw to lift it that hight in ur pic

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 02:15:22 AM
Quick update ....tried a basic set up...does not look good ...I'll explain in a bit
 :(
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 03:19:59 AM
Ok a little more experimenting ...I did find a balance point. It was around 45 degrees from flat
I made a picture ( who would have guessed )

I feel the angle of the loads at each end of the seesaw make the difference in balancing

In the picture .... I show a fix ( not tried yet )  that might help....still  I think it will not balance flat


Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: overtaker on May 02, 2009, 03:27:36 AM
Hey Alex.   How many lbs. of weight would be required to lift
a 10lb. weight in your first drawing?  (Providing you set that weight on the top left side of the lever ).  Thanks.
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 04:00:44 AM
This concept that Alex put forth is about balancing a load so that it takes very little energy to move the load up. 

think of a seesaw  with 100lb on each end-  "Balanced"..  add one pound  to one end and the other 100 lbs will move up.

Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: overtaker on May 02, 2009, 04:46:18 AM
Thanks Lilhawk,    But are you saying I will be able to lift a car with this set up with just a slight pull? 
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 05:13:48 AM
sorta if this proves out.   

depending on the range of the seesaw which will see unbalancing the further the angle of tilt.  So if the balance goes out by say 1%

that means a 3000 lbs(car) weight will need at least 30 lbs of force to stablize it. 10% difference in weight at the ends of seesaw with 3000 lbs

means you need at least 300lbs to lift.

Also to keep balance the seesaw tilt will probably have to be limited to which will make a lift stroke small depending on scale.

actually I should not talk ...I need to try that fix first..if that doesn't help...     I think this idea is mute
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 06:00:23 AM
Ok I tried  that "fix" ....well before I had balance but at an useless angle...and the seesaw at a flat angle felt no resistance( way off balance)

now....I can't find a balance point but ..... I do feel a resistance throught out a decent range in the seesaw

Ok ...well this got me thinking ....one more "fix" to try before I give up on this...

Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 02, 2009, 03:45:44 PM
Alexioco,

This is a very interesting lever-design...
What happens if we pull the string around the rim of a circle, instead of straight..???

Well, we will have a differens of approx. +/- 10 % to the opposite side !

The big question is: Will we still have balance?

ruggero  ;-)

Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 04:18:27 PM
wow wow wow hold your horses

Firstly let me say I have built this...

The seesaw balances even when its straight, you can even make it balance with the righthand side of the seesaw facing down (just slighty though) the weight makes itself light by appling its own weight to balance itself at any point of the lift so a light weight can lift a heavy weight.... This is just one of (32) of my drawn devices which I shall post over a period of time, they all have different ways of working, my latest design seems to be very promising, the weight should be able to lift itself without any help at all...

back to this one though, this design has alot of capablitlies which some are quite funny...

for example, if you had a large seesaw you could scale up a building by standing in a lift (you are the weight instead) and by jumping up, the mechanism would follow you up then when you land, you wont fall back down, you can also play on a seesaw without the need for somone the other side hahaha

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 02, 2009, 04:42:34 PM
wow wow wow hold your horses

Firstly let me say I have built this...
Alex

What? Why hold?
Which design did you built, Alexioco?

The 'T' as you posted in your opening post or my latest 'Y-Lever Wheel' design proposal?

Anyway...try to SWING the weight...give it at slight push and see what happens! Amazing stuff...

ruggero ;-)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 06:39:08 PM
Alex...please post something more than one design picture and saying this works...I like this idea so I tried  it and posted my results and my opinion why your design does not work.  I'm still working on this...trying different versions of your design.
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: AB Hammer on May 02, 2009, 07:26:22 PM
Alex

 It looks like a fun string you have started. Look up pulley arraignments and you will see several more possibilities.
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 07:27:47 PM
I have built it (My one that is), and it works, I wouldnt of posted it otherwise..... The "T" works, it balances itself weather straight or not, I like the new idea you posted and appreciate your help alot, all I'm saying is, that I have a working model so we can't argue with that, whats told you it wont work? if its some simulation then I dont trust it...
Soon as I find the wire that connects my cam to the comp, I will post footage of it which is better than any pic...


Edit: I tried giving it a slight push and nothing happend, I tried swinging it, and if you swing it hard enough, the weight drops because: It throws its weight around so there is more force on its side, intereresting....

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 09:41:40 PM
Thanks Alex.....

I tried this experiment....by this I mean I physical built your design and tried it and posted my results. They differ from yours so thats why I'm asking for info/ proof to show that I am wrong. or mabye someone else could try this?

Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 02, 2009, 10:08:17 PM
Has anyone really tried this? Here is a WM2D simulation that says it does not work.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 10:08:49 PM
Thanks Alex.....

I tried this experiment....by this I mean I physical built your design and tried it and posted my results. They differ from yours so thats why I'm asking for info/ proof to show that I am wrong. or mabye someone else could try this?

Ah, I'm with you now, Yeh, well thats strange, Mine works just fine, the weight becomes light and lifts when you push down, hmmm I cant find that wire for my life, and I had it in my hands about 2 weeks ago.. grr  after I have watched this programme im watcing, ill have a good look

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 10:32:25 PM
thanks Hans ...in your picture what angle did you start your seesaw at? if you have time I would be interested in seeing  results from steeper angles around 45 degrees.  Thats where I found a balance point with that design.
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 10:35:36 PM
Has anyone really tried this? Here is a WM2D simulation that says it does not work.

Hans von Lieven

Hans how can you say that it does not work? I have made the thing, you cannot campare reality with wm2d.... The weight balances and becomes light, commonsence tells you that when you look at how it works, the weight pulls one end down while at the same time resting its weight on the other end thefore its always balanced, I'm looking at my model right now, I now have it in my hand, ok now i have just put the sawsaw straight and im looking at it balanced, im now lifting it with hardly any force and every time I stop lifting, it does not fall back down...

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 02, 2009, 10:41:03 PM
@ Alexioco,

I don't know what you have built so I cannot comment on this. However I will state that the device as drawn cannot work. Common sense does not validate the idea. Do you seriously think we would build cranes the way we do if we could lift weights without effort in this manner?

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 10:45:46 PM
@ Alexioco,

I don't know what you have built so I cannot comment on this. However I will state that the device as drawn cannot work. Common sense does not validate the idea. Do you seriously think we would build cranes the way we do if we could lift weights without effort in this manner?

Hans von Lieven

Its just an idea I made that works, and I wanted to share it with you, nevermind...

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 02, 2009, 10:50:19 PM
thanks Hans ...in your picture what angle did you start your seesaw at? if you have time I would be interested in seeing  results from steeper angles around 45 degrees.  Thats where I found a balance point with that design.

Yes Lilhawk, you can find a point of equilibrium if the angle is steep enough. You can even get the side of the arm with the weight to go up, however you will notice that though the arm goes up, the weight actually goes down.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 10:58:58 PM
Yes Lilhawk, you can find a point of equilibrium if the angle is steep enough. You can even get the side of the arm with the weight to go up, however you will notice that though the arm goes up, the weight actually goes down.

Hans von Lieven

Hans, now I agree with you on that, the weight does start to go down at a certain point, but on my new design, it doesnt go down at all... maybe its to do with the length of the cord/string...
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 02, 2009, 11:07:08 PM
Thanks Hans....that coincides with my experiment...

Alex ...just get the info of your build which is simple=  left tie point of seesaw to seesaw pivot distance
                                                                         right pully of seesaw to  seesaw pivot distance
                                                                         bottom pully to  seesaw  pivot  distance
that should be your build ...it might help me and others to prove you right

Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 02, 2009, 11:11:04 PM
Thanks Hans....that coincides with my experiment...

Alex ...just get the info of your build which is simple=  left tie point of seesaw to seesaw pivot distance
                                                                         right pully of seesaw to  seesaw pivot distance
                                                                         bottom pully to  seesaw  pivot  distance
that should be your build ...it might help me and others to prove you right

you are right, im a little ignorant that way, sorry, I just went to my mates house to get a lead off him so im posting the footage... brb

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 03, 2009, 03:44:48 AM
Ok I found perfect flat balance. ::) ... with this design.   

but it has no lift to the load....it will support the load and the seesaw should move easily

the load just stays static with this. 

Probably won't go any farther with this
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 03, 2009, 04:19:16 AM
@ Lilhawk,

This is an interesting one. It does something I did not expect and I am at this moment at a loss to explain. Have a look at the simulation.

Hans von Lieven

Edit:  Surely it cannot do this in the real world. Look at seesaw3. Milkovic eat your heart out !  ;D
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 03, 2009, 04:58:15 AM
Sorry Hans...I don't have wm2d....so I do not know what you are seeing.

what I have learned through this is that 90 degrees gives the best transfer of a load through the string. If you go farther than 90 degrees
the load starts to be shared with pulley achor point  and out going string.

Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 03, 2009, 05:09:37 AM
Lilhawk,

The PM system here does not appear to work at the moment, send a message to hans@keelytech.com and I tell you what to do.

Hans
Title: REQUEST
Post by: ruggero on May 03, 2009, 09:11:01 AM
To all of you WM2D folks:

Please consider posting your animation as AVI, QUICKTIME, SWF, MEDIAPLAYER etc. so that all of us (who would definately like to review and comment on these tests) can 'join the club' of contribution.
Usually it's a matter of export features in your software preferences.(!)

At least - if that's too difficult - post a JPG or screendump together with your wm2d.

Thanks a lot
ruggero
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 03, 2009, 09:32:39 AM
Lilhawk...

I like drawings just like you... ;)

If you are working in Illustrator and Flash, we could exchange raw-files and spare some time re-drawing the same thing?

Alexioco:
Thanks for your feedback on my design idea.

Is it possible that you can try build the 'circle' (i.e. rope/line guide) into your model?
I mean: You allready exposed a very talented craftmanship for model building.

Look at my latest drawing below.
If Alexioco's is right about balancing and can make a small weight do the moving (and lifting), the 'circle' design will actually lift the weight almost 1.25 times the diameter distance all the way to the top 12:00.
The small weight falling only 120 degree (or 1/3 turn).

All I can do, is making a Flash animation....

regards
ruggero  ;)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 03, 2009, 09:38:19 AM
I appreciate your concerns ruggero but this is not as simple as it sounds. The rendering engine of WM2D is atrocious and only supports simple models. More complex models are rendered in such a fashion as to make it almost impossible to see what is going on.

Furthermore there is a restriction on file size. AVI files, even of simple models are large, in fact too large to be uploaded here. A WM2D file (the bare bones file that is) takes very little space since it only contains the start up conditions and a few formulae. The AVI files have to render every frame.

I wish I could see a good way of doing this but at the moment I can"t. Any useful suggestions are welcome.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 03, 2009, 10:33:41 AM
The rendering engine of WM2D is atrocious and only supports simple models. More complex models are rendered in such a fashion as to make it almost impossible to see what is going on.

Well well well....I don't say you are wrong, but the wm2d company website tell otherwise.

A lot of very complicated and heavy designs find its way to YouTube in other formats than AVI - some of them are even available in this forum.
How they achieve this I don't know.

ruggero  ;)


Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: turbo on May 03, 2009, 11:07:56 AM

I wish I could see a good way of doing this but at the moment I can"t. Any useful suggestions are welcome.

Hans von Lieven

Hello Hans,

You can convert the .AVI to animated GIF and you can also reduce it's size.
This cut's down filesize dramatically by reducing the color palette to less colors without making the picture too bad when it does not involve millions of colors to start with.

Marco.
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 03, 2009, 11:11:18 AM
hello  Ruggero....

I see a couple of things problematic with your last drawing...I'll only point out the big one   ;)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 03, 2009, 11:53:46 AM
hello  Ruggero....

I see a couple of things problematic with your last drawing...I'll only point out the big one   ;)

If these are the 'big' concerns...I think it'll have a good chance working ;)

But to meet your arguments:

First of all this is a drawing of the principle.
Second, the topmost point on the drawing is really not at 12:00 but a little to the left of the center-line: This makes the angle to the buttom exchange point less than 90 degree.
Third, put a small weight on the left lever arm (at 11:59) and it will start moving down...as any overbalanced leverarms.

I have made a small build(se drawing below) of a circle with a string/rope mounted on the weight (A) at 12:00 (exactly noon) - the string going down to and turn 180 around the axle, goes up to and around a pulley and then drops to a hanging weight (B).
The weight (B) is half the weight of weight (A).

Okay – let go and let the weight (A) fall.
You will notice that the wheel turns over 360 dgr...and offcourse keeps running another 210-225 dgr.

ruggero  ;)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 03, 2009, 01:41:30 PM
Now – the funny part of this lever 'trick' is the way that the small weight (B) seems to gain some of the momentum from the big weight's (A) falling...like, for a short moment eliminating or releasing the tension between the two weights.

It must be like that, because...if you make a start set up with the big weight (A) at 06:00, there is no way the wheel could possible start moving.

What I see, is an acceleration of the big weight (A) that is actually faster than the (beginning) free fall of the small weight (B): It's like dropping the small weight without a string mounted to it.

ruggero  ;)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: gurangax on May 03, 2009, 04:05:41 PM
Nice since everyone here is interested working with pulleys configuration, I will also post my find later I found it to be very interesting because I think this one is never taught at school.
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 03, 2009, 04:44:34 PM
The footage is too big to fit on here, so you will just have to take my word for it.......

I tried a little test, if the bottom pulley is not far enough down, then it is not as effective, this is I think why you are getting negative results, but what mine does is, when the seesaw is straight, it balances and you can even face the seesaw down just slightly and it still balances, when you push down on the other side of the lever, it lifts the weight up slowly but easlily, and it doesnt go down at any point unless you push it down.... If there is anyone with doubts to my claims then I'm afraid its tuff luck to put it bluntly.... There is alot to learn from this device for those who are willing to learn... the position of the string and the length  of the string on either side determine how much more power there is one side than the other etc etc... I will leave this with you to speculate at :D

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: overtaker on May 03, 2009, 05:09:09 PM
Alex,   In your test,  what was the connection at the  " t " ?

Is it a bearing?  If you are using small weights and there is

lots of friction at the lever connection than that will throw

off the results!  For this kind of test that connection needs

to be nearly friction free.  imho   :)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 03, 2009, 05:24:12 PM
Alex,   In your test,  what was the connection at the  " t " ?

Is it a bearing?  If you are using small weights and there is

lots of friction at the lever connection than that will throw

off the results!  For this kind of test that connection needs

to be nearly friction free.  imho   :)

Hi overtaker, the entire thing has harly much friction, the seesaw does not come in contact with the stand, do you want to give me your email address? we can disscuss it there, I have some things you might take a fancy too...

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 03, 2009, 09:08:45 PM
Alex...sorry to hear your having problems with getting the file/pic/vid  posted

if you don't mind I be interested in those figures I mentioned about earlier

when I did my tests I just pulled on the load string.  When you have a balance the load weight will not matter.
 
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 03, 2009, 09:40:51 PM
Alex...sorry to hear your having problems with getting the file/pic/vid  posted

if you don't mind I be interested in those figures I mentioned about earlier

when I did my tests I just pulled on the load string.  When you have a balance the load weight will not matter.

I'm sorry for over reacting, I am just getting upset about that everyone is using my design and telling me it doesnt work  :'( all I can say is I have it here unless im mistaken in some way but to me it seems to be working...

Alex
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 03, 2009, 10:08:46 PM
Alex,

I've just did some quick build testing.
Let me hear if you got the same results:

a) the lever balance in horizontal position
b) when you push the weight-hanging side a few degree down,
    it overbalance to that (hanging) side, and then falling all the
    way down to the bottom by it self
c) push the mounting side down (where the string are mounted)
    and it will hold its position anywhere in that quarter of a 'circle-path'
    form horizontal to vertical (buttom).
d) to release a position (according to c) you need to put a weight
    on the mounting side that is heavier than the existing hanging weight

ruggero  ;)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 03, 2009, 10:47:33 PM
I'm sorry for over reacting, I am just getting upset about that everyone is using my design and telling me it doesnt work  :'( all I can say is I have it here unless im mistaken in some way but to me it seems to be working...

Alex

Sorry Alex, but I can only go by what you have given me. Perhaps you could make an exact drawing what you are experimenting with and we can have another go. Maybe a photo of your device.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 04, 2009, 01:28:50 AM
Hey Ruggero...I see some thought went into the last one ...you definatly like circles :P

but i went over the first one you posted.  You said increasing the angle and adding weight to the top end would get this going.

I did some math to show what its going to take.
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Lilhawk on May 04, 2009, 02:03:45 AM
Any body that has one of these working please post your build as per drawing
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 04, 2009, 03:52:13 AM
Yes, this is exactly how I had it in the simulation. It does not work the way Alex says.
 
 Here are 4 screenshots of the simulation that show what happens under those conditions.
 
 Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 04, 2009, 08:41:45 AM
Exactly Hans....my life test build did the same.
Can you try a sim putting some weight on the left side, to document what 'lilhawk' was calculating?

lilhawk:
Yes I like circles...but I like spirals even better 8) – especially when added to an Atwood connected pendulums.
The point I'm trying to make by using circle in this setup is, that the string/rope resting on more or less of the circumference (rim) may have some importance to the tension and distribution of force...

Nice calculation btw. You point at the same issue as mentioned in my latest post.
And I agree with your request: If anyone got a build that behave differently, we need some documentation to support such statement.

ruggero  ;)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: ruggero on May 04, 2009, 09:07:45 AM
I'm sorry for over reacting, I am just getting upset about that everyone is using my design and telling me it doesnt work  :'( all I can say is I have it here unless im mistaken in some way but to me it seems to be working...Alex

I completely understand your frustration, Alex.

Try to see it from another position:

We do not say that your design doesn't work!
We do not say, that you are not truthworthy!

What we are saying is, that our effort to try to replicate your design do not replicate your results.

To find out why this is happening, we try to examine possible differences on elements and vital details such as angle, lbs, pulley-size, measurements etc.

Finally, at this point your design is 'used' for evaluation.

ruggero  ;)
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 04, 2009, 09:54:52 AM
This is equilibrium, as expected.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Weightless Weight
Post by: Alexioco on May 04, 2009, 02:57:43 PM
its strange why this is, its not different from that one Hans posted, that is really strange... Wander why, I made two that work... I will write about what i did then post it

Alex