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Author Topic: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!  (Read 20079 times)

Offline D.R.Jackson

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LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« on: April 27, 2009, 06:44:48 PM »
The Sonic Resonator Circuit....

  Hello, this is D.R. Jackson and you can call me "Doc" if you want.  I am here with a few Spice simulation circuit diagrams for you to have to Run a simulation of the device I want to introduce you to.  The device demonstrates some principles and views contrieved into the circuit to make it accomplish something unique that in the software analysis some people would think impossible to plot in CAD electrical design and analysis softwares terms.  And that accomplishment is the all desired and sought after thing I know that you folk here at this forum refer to as over unity power output.  And so, the software all of its own without being told one thing about the circuit or its concepts, analyzes and concludes that it works.

  For about three years now we have had our concepts up on the Internet at our technologies group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfggroup The group was discontinued but it is still up Online and the moderator may have it running again.  But if you join it he may get active with it again.

 You can download the files at this post which contains a graphic of the circuit as well as the spice circuit files to run.  I have come back today and updated the files for you so that you get all of the files you need to be innovative and understand the device.

http://www.overunity.com:80/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7366.0;attach=33307

  Please copy and keep this post to read offline as you study the files.

 About LTspice: If you do not have this software it is distributed for free to engineers and techs, as well as students and hobbyest by Linear Technologies at www.linear.com.  You can Google for it and read up on all of the use and forums devoted to the software.

  I do not want to make this starter post about this matter into a long discussion.  So I will try and keep it all as short as I can and come back and add things as we go along and I can have time to get away to the Internet and update things as we go.  Of course my time is a question and when I can I will get back here, but you will keep busy with these files I am giving you here and so stay busy a good long while.

  However the circuit and its principles are at this moment well developed and are ready for prototyping and actual on the bench study by you and myself.  By the world if you want too also, so I publish in this world forum.  And so, to give the circuit to you in this forum as a virtual model that actually operates in widely used Spice software is like giving the device to you able to operate, though its operation is a simulation.  But nonetheless you will have a model that runs and so, is like seeing, handling, and fealing as well as getting a look at all of its details and not as some sort of black box device that is all sealed up.  And you can calculate and analyze it as well as design another with another transistor model for higher power.  So you will know how its all done once you get to running the model and analyzing it.

  The circuit does not use some mysterious principle but some concepts and views that although newly developed over some past years here, work in the software.  The software is not told what to do with the circuit.  It just sees the circuit layout and then runs test on it and calculates how it operates and so, if it will do anything, the software then simulates what the circuit does from its point of view.  Which happens to agree with my concepts and principles I developed along for conceiving of the circuit.  I was surprise that this widely used software was able to come to the same conclusion of the circuit's operation as I conceived that it might be able to operate under.  And this software will immediately tell you if the circuit does nothing or if its operation breaks down into nothing.  Since in general design use it is pretty good at telling us when a circuit does not do much or nothing at all.

  Description of the operation of the circuit is as follows.  The transistor amplifier section is driven by a 1 kHz singal input power of 1V peak @ 18.3 mA = 18.3 milliwatt input to the base circuit.  Assuming in this circuit a lossless signal source which is provided by a test singal generator in the circuit diagram that runs in the software.  A real source will have certain device losses and a input matching network loss.  The maximum peak positive circuit current to the power supply filter during operation is around 34mA.  The output in this circuit is loaded with a reactance of -Xc = 0.1uF since at the output section the circuit wants to see a reactance.  I have a model that has a reactance in the form of a step down transformer that is rectified into +12V for use to power any 12V device that does not exceed the circuits power.  C3 then represents the reactive output load.  The voltage that the software computes to exist across our output load is +28V peak @ +/- 33mA (66mA peak to peak) the peak to peak power output is 1.815 watts (0.9075 watts peak).

  The power supply filter section according to LTspice IV's computations, sees a peak DC pulse current of 34mA @ 10V which equates to an input power of 0.34 watts (0.38 watts peak to peak).  Since there is a negative cycle pulse of equal amplitude.  And so lets add up the input power that the software demonstrates versus output power.

Input power = 0.036 w p~p (Ib(Q1)) + 0.38 w p~p = 0.416 watts p~p in

Output power = 1.815 watts p~p

Ratio over unity = 4.36298076923077:1

  (In the circuit files you will also find a 48 watt output version of this device you can run in simulation.  So keep in mind that this file is in the collection also.)

  Believe it or not thats the way the software computed it to be to my surprise.  And so, you can run the software analysis and test the circuit yourself ~ all you want; and come out with the same findings.  Its hard to believe that it all works that way and in one of the worlds most widely used engineering and design softwares too.
 
  Ok I won't try to be too long here with any descriptions and so, just allow you to run the circuit in Spice analysis software fashion to study the workings and operation of and let you check the performance your own way in your own time.

  One thing about software simulations where the software calculates the operation and feasiblity of a circuit.  Is that the virtualla parts list cost nothing to research.  Each person who explores these concepts can try out various transistor versions, as well as types such as FET types.  And can even use vacuum tubes as the amplifier section.  You can find a few vacuum tube spice models for use in LTspice by Googling for them, and so add them to you part library in the software's file section.

  Comments regarding this device should be left up to those who will download, run and analyze the circuits.  And so, be left up to expert technical reviews.  I would not say that comments made without first analyzing the circuits can be valid and hence would only be opinion.  We all need to hear from those who are able to evaluate the models and report back their findings and hence here from a jury of like peers.

  I am working now on a complete discussion text of the concepts and principles of the device.  I can not detail them all here since that would require up to 20 pages of text with many graphics.  And so, the best way to learn about the devices is to run it in the analysis software and analyze it and discover for yourself how it operates and see if you can crack the concepts behind it.

  I will keep you all posted from time to time as I can find time to get back here.

  For now let me say that there is nothing critical about operating the circuit.  But you can not alter it much, it has to stay basically as you see it.  The transformer is phased 180 degrees and you can not change that phasing.  Also, in a real model the coefficient of coupling requirement of the transformer is high.  So, the best transformer design I believe that can be used are the new toroid type power supply transformers used in new computer and stereo power supplies that are magnetically efficient.  So thats about it, nothing really magic to it, just these sorts of parts though a really good conventional type of transformer may work well enough.  Which means that in the current state of the art in maunfacturing we have the kinds of parts to manufacture this and so, there is no barrier to manufacturing that I can envision.  Since there is no unusual or yet to be dsigned part.  We have the kinds of part now that we need.  Being the circuit is based upon conventional parts ideas, though the inductance of the transformer is kind of high at 1 Henry per winding.

  And we can hope that some of these fellows or gals here at this forum with their unusual transformers that they have designed, might come up with one that is even more efficient or somehow might provide us with some kind of boost in power.  That would be even better.

  Oh one other thing that you fellow and gals experienced with LTspice software will like to know is that there are no Spice directive instructions written into the spice circuit files to tell the software how to analyze or treat the circuit.  So there are no special theoretical instructions to alter the way the software analyzes and figures out the circuit.  You can open the file up in a note pad or word document and read its net list and see no instructions.  The software basically just analyzes the circuit using its own original instructions and solutions and comes up with its own conclusions.  And so we do not tell it anything about the circuit nor do we tell it what to do with the circuit it just analyzes ot all the same as it would any circuit.

  I do not know if anyone has ever uploaded on the Internet any circuit file that can be run to demonstrate over unity in operation.  If not well we can not say that anymore.  So this I suppose makes it all a different ball game now.  And so, I am pretty sure that you who know how to operate Spice softwares, especially LTspice will be pretty happy with the circuits.

D.R. "Doc" Jackson

Tip! ...if you decrease L2 to 0.5 H then the current through Dx will increase and increase the power output, but not change the power supply input power.
 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 12:57:15 AM by D.R.Jackson »

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Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 07:37:36 PM »
To summarize my models, I have a model of that same circuit that I made a tap change on the secondary to increase the current of Dx by 3 times, without changing the power supply current.  So now the output is even higher.  Which is interesting as compared to the first model.  But tthese two strange models are nothing compared to what happens when I place a higher powered transistor (2N3055) into this circuit.

In the 2N3055 model the power supply current at 10V is still 60mA peak to peak.  And so, is the same as the low powered model.

The rectified current through Dx from L2 is 885mA.

The current in C3 is 1.8A peak to peak @ 25.3V (pulsed DC peaks).

If LTspice is only half right about the output of this circuit, I think I would accept that and go with it.

One thing about this circuit is that it appears that I am reaching the limit at which it can draw current through L2 by the power ~ supplied by V1 of 10V or our circuit working volts.  Since any adjustment to the inductance of L2 in terms of taps, does not effect I(L2).  However when you crank up the power supply voltage you can then crank up the current.

When V1 is 24V DC, then V(C3) = 60V and I(C3) = 2.72A p~p

This model is extreme over unity according to the software analysis.

In this model the ratio of onput power from the power supply and the 1 kHz signal input, to the output is way too higher to ignore.  Providing that LTspice is interpreting the circuit correctly.

I was thinking of ways to test these ideas on the test bench knowing that its kind of hard to find a transformer with 1 Henry windings.  So I thought that perhaps an alternative would be something like a 120V to 120V test bench isolation transformer, and one with an adjustable secondary sounds even better.  And since the low powered model allow for changing secondary taps, I thought that maybe some power supply transformers with a secondary for 60V to 70V AC might work.  Which is not impossible to find.

And we have vacuum tube plate transformers for home stereo than you can order.  With certain winding impedances a 1 kHz which tells you something about what the inductance of the windings might be.  So they seem like good choices.  Some ham radio operators in the group might have a junk box of old plate modulation transformers.  And so, might try something.

In conclusion, those of this forum with the interest and the electrical skills as well as some prior knowledge of LTspice and being skilled with its use.  May run the circuits, analyze their workings as well as peculair quirks.  And help to develope a base of information from numerous studies.  The LTspice files then are our quide and helps and the make it possible to investigate the device without having to buy allot of research parts.  And once we have things pretty well defined we can make a few test bench models.  So, I hope you will be inspired to innovate.

Offline vasik041

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 09:21:21 PM »
Hi Doc,

Have you checked power in LTSpice ?

Thanks,
-V.

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 09:21:21 PM »
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Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 11:59:00 PM »
vasik041

  Glad to see you got LTspice...

  I was looking at the output computed by LTspice and it looks to me to be more of what I would calculate for the RMS power.  Using the manual method.

  If you want to see a great increase of power over input power.  (~See the circuit diagram beneath this here reply) Run the 2N3055 model in the extra models folder.  Also, in that model run the power supply in one simulation at 24 volts and then compute the power.  I hope that will look pretty good to you.  And interest you. (Check out its LTspice watts plot graphic below this reply also!)

  To encourage you and others I have done a similar plot in LTspice such as you have done of the inputs versus output power of the 2N3055 model and have it for you to see below this reply.  I tend to be guilty of adding my voltages and currents up in a visual manner from the waveform plots and so measure things in peak to peak terms.  But from now on I will use your method and let LTspice express its math and science in the matter.

  I will try the spice directive you used in all my models and see how that all computes.

 *The standard model is used to show mainly how I can balance the currents in L1 and L2 as well as C3 based on the same current levels.  And so, the power input to output is compeditive in this model.  Its more or less what I intend as a concepts and principles model in my text I am working on.

  In the 2N3055 model you have the same peak to peak current in V1 as in the standard model but I(L2) is up at 885mA (see) and check the input power on the Q1 base which is higher with this transistor.  Then crank up the voltage of V1 as I mentioned to 24V and then compute that.  I think that you will see that the 885mA current in Dx makes this model a different ball game.

  And the equation will change even more when I give you a model of one of these circuits powering another so that the power from the second comes only from the first one and not a power supply.  So ponder that equation too.

  So try the 2N3055 model!

Dan

Thank You and I am glad you are running LTspice! ;D

Dan
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 01:44:39 AM by D.R.Jackson »

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 12:27:49 AM »
"Everything You Need To Know About These Over Unity Spice Simulations"

I will offer you a description of the circuits here in this post that you can download in LTspice circuit simulations files: so that you can decide if you are curious and wish to inquire further into these matters?  And so, I offer up a public description which we will Archive here in this Public Domain forum for the world to ponder and use.  And to document the concepts and principles by the father of the invention himself. ~ 04/28/09

This discussion will use the Standard Model in the above graphic for our discussion, and then we will mention the Virtual Power Supply Concept and then the higher powered model.

The circuit looks allot like a audio amplifier since it is after all a AC circuit.  It is driven by a 1 kHz input signal.  And the unique thing about the device is that it uses the transformer to 180 degree phase the induced current so that a separate branch current for the transistor exist that rectifies and pulls the current through the collector in a branch that is away from the power supply.  In this branch the rectified current through the diode, makes the DC current of the rectified half cycle move in the direction of the diode.  And so, the transistor current sees what appears to be another power supply via the the induced force of L2 and the rectification of the current by the diode at the end of L2.  Since the current through L2 that is rectified by Dx is in the in forward direction.  Which draw this branch current up from the ground, through the emitter and collector on up into L2 and through Dx back to ground to recirculate around again and again.  And have to be circulated around by the power supply.

So this extra induced current does not have to be carried by the power supply.  And the electromotive force for moving this extra current is induced in L2 by L1.  Thanks to our 1 kHz drive on the base input of Q1.

Now the added benefit of the transformer is that in addition to an extra powering current added to the transistor, is that the transformer coil winding induces a transistor collector voltage on the transistor of +27.5V and so, the voltage now is way higher than the +10V power supply voltage.

The transistor (Q1) collector current is now = to I(L1)+I(Dx)+I(C3) so you can see that we can analyze and quantify the currents and voltages and so, are not dealing with some exotic and unquantifiable energy that never can be computed.  All of this is computable.

  The transistor powering current is now doubled by the secondary winding and the voltage is stepped up.  And so, adding in the load current to the collector current I(C3).  The final collector current is now three times what the power supply delivers, and the voltage is nearly 3 times that of the power supply.  The output load C3 now has 1/3rd the transistor current which is equal to the power supply current at +27.5V rather than the +10V of the power supply.

Once you get a look at it all, its easily understood.  And reduces down to simple views.

  In this low powered model I deliberately set the currents of L2 and C3 to match that of the input current from V1 to demonstrate something in another LTspice simulation model.  By tapping L2 at 0.5H we can increase the current of this branch of the circuit through Dx by a little over three times and the current of the power supply I(V1) does not change in the simulation since I have better matched the loading of L2.  And so, when this is done the over unity computation of the circuit is even greater.

  And so the description of its operation is pretty easy to explain and follow, if you will analyze it in LTspice.

The Virtual Power supply Concept:

  Further comments about T1 and its secondary winding L2 are as follows. 

  What the transistor current sees through L2 is a rectified DC current direction up through L2 to Dx.  And so, the conceptual definition of Dx is that the forward moving force of L2 to pull current forwards to Dx and rectify it into DC, makes Dx appear to be a positive power supply terminal with respect to Q1, to attract forward current from the transistor.  And, appears to Q1 to be another power supply branch.  And so, provides for another power supply branch of current; so that this current can be added back into the summed power equation of the transistor currents.

  If we were relying on a single choke coil for L1 and did not have L2.  Then we would have an induced voltage to use on the collector of Q1.  However, L1 radiates electromagnetic energy and so, this radiated energy would not be used for anything.  And would not be efficient in that we are not make the most of the available energy and conserving it.  By adding L2 as a secondary winding to make a transformer out of our choke L1.  We now have a means to capture the radiated electromagnetic energy and use it to do some work for us.  And so, conserve our available energy.  Where L1 alone would merely mean that we are not using all of the energy that the circuit has available.  So T1 is that means to make use of the magnetic energy of L1 which can induce another current into the circuit by L2.

  In summary of the previous view we have to find a way to added that energy back into the circuit in a way that adds up in a positive way.  So we have to phase it for the right moment to conduct in the right direction, and rectify it into DC current that can be used to up the sum of the input power into the transistor.  Though the sum of this input power is induced into the circuit by the transistor itself via the 1 kHz drive input.

  Always remember that the conceptual definition of L2 and its rectifier Dx is that with respect to the collector current I(Q1) this appears to be another positive power supply terminal.  And so, is a virtual power supply built into the circuit that makes use of energy captured from and out of the 1 Henry collector choke L1 ~ that would ordinarily be lost to radiation if L1 were a mere choke and not a transformer.

The High Powered Model

  The high powered model in the above graphic that uses the 2N3055 transistor.  Is unique in that the same power supply current that is drawn by the Standard Model that uses the 2N5550 transistor is the same in this model.  The only difference is that the 1 kHz drive signal power input to this transistor is higher.  The current through Dx in this model is 885mA.  The induced voltage on the collector and across C3 is 25.3V.  the current induced into Ce by both the transistor and the un rectified half cycle of L2 is 1.78A peak to peak.  And so, LTspice calculates that in this model the ratio of over unity is greater than the previous models.  and so, you can do the math here and add up the power output of this later model.

  As mentioned in the previous post here I made.  In this model we are maxing out our force in L1 and L2 with the currents we are running and the different loading that the 2N3055 transistor offers as compared to the lower powered model.  And so, the idea of changing the L2 tap point to anything less than 1 Henry in this model will not work to produce a further current increase in Dx and Q1.  So we are maxed out in this model.

  However to get further power increases all we have to do is increase the power supply voltage to 12 or 24 volts.  Which will give us allot of power output.  However if we move the voltage up to around 50 volts the induced voltages of L1 and L2 etc, will cause the performance of the circuit to break down.  So, we need to keep the power supply voltage within a certain maximum level.  24 volts is fine as a power supply input to this circuit.

  If anyone of you at any time become concerned for the base to emitter current rating of a transistor used in the models.  And find that from the transistor data sheets that the base current is near to or being exceeded.  The thing to do then is to use Motorola RF power transistors in the same power output range as the transistor you modeled, since the RF transistor is made to handle more base to emitter dissipation than other kinds of transistors.  Also, the use of higher powered FET transistors will enable you to reduce the 1 kHz input power since they have gate input impedances and resistance that are high and so similar to vacuum tubes.  Which is a way to reduce the 1 kHz driver power input.

  In closing for now, it appears that from my analysis of both L1 and L2 in terms of current.  We do not need allot of current in either L1 or L2 according to the high powered model.  So long as we have current in L2 comparable to that of L1 or higher, and a little higher seems to be better.  We can have an over unity energy equation in the circuit.  And true all of the impedance calculations and plotting of performance with different transistor types and currents, etc, as well as maybe different input signal frequencies are yet to be studied by who knows how many of us.

  One thing I will tell you not to attempt to do is to make the circuit resonate strictly at 1 kHz.  This circuit generates allot of harmonics naturally.  In fact a FFT analysis reveals it is rich in harmonic energy and this is the way it naturally runs.  If you try to filter all of the byproducts out of the circuit and try to tune it all strictly to 1 kHz.  Then you are not conserving all of the available energy types that this circuit generates.  And so, would only be filtering out the energy that naturally resonates through the circuit in terms of all the various frequency energy that is generated.  So, leave well enough alone.  Do not filter out and hence destroy all of the energy.  After the output signal is stepped down in a step down transformer (as I am doing in a Spice model I have here ~ I will upload when I can) and then the stepped down voltage is rectified.  Then we can slap a power supply filter capacitor on the DC output and then use the voltage and current.

  Further explanations of the performance of these devices are forth coming in the future.  And at the moment would take up a few pages of text and so are better left for compiling into a PDF document that we will upload in the future here in these post for you to use.

  I hope all who run and analyze these circuits will enjoy them and be inspired and will think of ways that we all can work together in the future.  So I give everyone a working model though its a virtual circuit model.  And I hope that all runs well!



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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 12:27:49 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 12:56:05 AM »
Just to be clear: Vasik ran the circuit you specified, in the simulator you specified, and used that simulator's math functions to calculate the energy in and out over a short time period of 11 milliseconds. Putting in the zeros, I see input energy during that time to be 0.000078205 Joules. And the output energy during that time is 0.00000051761 Joules.
Try as I might, I cannot come up with an OVERUNITY ratio of 4.36298076923077 to one, from those energy values.

(And didn't you ever hear about Significant Digits? That is, you can't have more in your answer than you have in your least precise input data. So even if that number isn't wrong, it still isn't right.)

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 03:16:08 AM »
As I mentioned to vasik041 in my reply to them, I was guilty of measuring the peak to peak current of the circuits manually with the eye and mouse cursor.  And then using a calculator.  So I was using the method you would use with an oscilloscope.

I am not sure how LTspice is computing the power as peak to peak which it seems to be doing or as average?

However as I mentioned to vasik041, I plan to do as they do and express the input power versus output power of the device with LTspice doing it all from now on.

If you will look at the plot above for the 2N3055 model that vasik041 should have a copy of in their files, you will see that LTspice computes that this model has both transistor base and power supply input power in and around the arena 1 watt or so each as best as we can see that plot graphic.  Yet LTspice computes that the output power is near to 16 watts.  So thats the important issue at the moment.  And you have the plot above and anyone who has my files can run that model of which there is a circuit diagram of here on this page.

So yes I am guilty of using the eye and the cursor to measure the wave form peaks.

However we still have some over unity expressions that we can not account for except in the concepts and principles of the design.  So all is encouraging as hell I think!  Just look at the LTspice wattage plots I am adding to the post to follow this one and so, let the software express what it has plotted in terms of input versus output in my better models.  Its hard to explain other than by the concepts that went into the circuit.  Which is the only way to explain and the software agrees.

Also, as I mentioned in the first threads in this post.  In my tip at the bottom of that post.  If anyone changes L2 in the standard model then the Dx current is increased and the power output is increased in teh model that vasik041 ran.

You can see the LTspice wattage plot for that model below. In the next post.

Ok ~ true its hard to accurately judge with the eye the amplitude average of various wave shapes over the wave cycles of a plot and come up with a true expression of the peak to peak.  But the math of the software is way better at it than we are.  And so, I won't be using the eye anymore but allow the software to express the wattage.  Which is a good idea and mandatory as I realize.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 09:18:23 AM by D.R.Jackson »

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 03:16:08 AM »
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Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 03:22:47 AM »
In the first post here on this page, at the bottom of the page I mention that if you change to value of L2 to 0.5H (0.5 Henry) and run that, you will have an increased current in Dx.  And so the power output will be increased in the low powered Standard Model.  The LTspice plot of those functions of that model is below.

You will notice that the output power is near to 800mW, and the V1 input power is near to 400mW and the Q1 base input signal power is the small amplitude red wave form.  So figure that up?

Basically this low powered model is on in which one can experiement with to study the effects of the various circuit currents, and play with balancing them all or increasing L2 as I have.  I should be more clear in what my models were intended for in the future.  But you can get all excited once you see it all work and just have to make some comments to people to share it all.  So we will try to be more concise.

Study the power plot then of the standard model that I have modified below and you will see that the output power of this low powered model is nearly twice the input power.  And thats what LTspice has plotted.  So we have to pay attention to the softwares computations.  And these are not my eye and hand computations but those of the software.  So these are to be better trusted.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 05:12:24 AM by D.R.Jackson »

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 07:31:22 AM »
16 watt model download

16_watt_model.asc LTspice circuit simulation file.

Remember that this is AC power with positive and negative power peaks.  The power factor of which is who knows at the moment.

  So that we do not have any confusion about the best and better developed models to run in simulation.  I have updated some files for you to download and concentrate on the performance of.

  Below is an expanded view of the power output for your interpretation.








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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 07:31:22 AM »
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Offline samedsoft

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 08:27:03 AM »
DR

  Can you make a switch to tun it on after starting up and charging a cap and prove self running system on LTSpice?

  Nuri

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 09:02:09 AM »
DR

  Can you make a switch to tun it on after starting up and charging a cap and prove self running system on LTSpice?

  Nuri

Thats an interesting test to contrieve in software.  My current idea is to try and use a low power model to power a high powered model.  And I am thinking of that as an LTspice file. 

I do not think that I can make a switch in the software that can switch on in the circuit simulation so many seconds later.  It would have to be told to kick on after the circuit simulation has charged up.  So that would be hard for me to model.  There might be a spice model for such a switch some place.  You never now what models you can Google and find.

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 09:02:09 AM »
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Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 09:04:43 AM »
I want to conduct an experiment to see how much positive power we have from this apparently 16 watt circuit?  If it is near to 16 watts with a resistor to visualize the peak power.  And so, to do that I want to replace the reactive load of C3 (-Xc) with a resistor calculated to properly load the circuit for 16 watts.

Well first of all, when I measured the wattage from peak to peak very carefully to 2 digits past the decimal, the sum that I obtained from the model was 17  rathr than 16W.  So I am using that figure here.

Where
Vc = 45 V
P C3 = 17W peak

17W / 45V = 0.377777777777778 Amps

45V / 0.377777777777778 Amps = 119.117647058823 ohms

So I have replaced C3 with a 119 ohm resistor (R1) and run the wattage plot across this resistor.  And compared it to the input wattage of V1.  And that plot is below with a circuit diagram of the experiment.

You will notice that in this circuit the wattage across R1 appears to be 18 watts rather than 17 watts.  Anyways we are close to properly loading the circuit.  And notice that the power of R1 is all positive.  The power across the former C3 load capacitor was reactive and centered upon the zero axis.  Here the power is all above the axis and looks well in amplitude. 

Also notice how low in amplitude that the input power of V1 is?

I would say that in my visual estimation of this circuit being a 16 watt circuit from the original plot a few post above.  That to say this is a 16 watt circuit is about correct.  I will let you be the judge of wave forms.  However this is not 60 Hz but 1 kHz and the current alternates real fast and so, when rectified and filtered the power should be able to easily run to the peak of this circuit.  The angular velocity energy of 1 kHz is way higher than that of 60 Hz ~ but I am certain that some techs and engineers will never understand what I mean by that comment.  The angular velocity energy I mean.  It is higher than 60 Hz.  When this is filtered after rectification it will do good at this frequency.  Really fast delivery of charge to our power supply filter is what I mean.

I have read the comments of some of the folk over at the Yahoo LTspice group about my circuits and their views.  Mostly those who have not even opened up the circuits and run them, but comment merely by opinion.  Of course I am sure that they can not explain this here one circuit.  And so, I challenged them with all of their knowledge and know how to analyze and explain it, or declare that LTspice is in error.   Of course there are some really good folk at that group and some are helpful and so, it takes all kinds for sure.  And thats going to happen here at this post too.  But I have been around the block and know how that all goes.

Ok, I will catch you all around here as results dictate and time allows.  And I will be sure to update things here as I can.  And so, experiment with these things.

Offline D.R.Jackson

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 11:46:17 AM »

The previous switch and capacitor comment to power off of, reminded me of my strangest and possibly most over unity model of my circuits I have thats hidden in the files of the first download at the top of page 1 (and now at the end of this post).

In that circuit I focused on the fact of the alternating peak to peak current that L1 induces into the power supply.  Normaly you do not have AC current going to a DC power supply but the force of L1 creates that condition and induces it nonetheless.

And so, I reasoned that the positive peak being +33mA and the negative peak being -33mA (in the orignal model), could allow one half cycle alteration to replace back the current that is taken.  But how can I do that?  Where do I place it and take it from with respect to the power supply?

I decided that if I can move the place the current alternates to and from, to someplace external to the power supply.  And still have the 10 volt power supply voltage there.  It might work.  And so my idea was a capacitor.

What I did in the model was design a very heavy low pass filter with two 10000uF caps and a 0.01 Henry choke into a Pi network filter.

What this does, is that upon initial charge up of the circuit these two large capacitors take on allot of heavy initial electron current flow to charge up.  And way more charge than the moving L1 current.  Then once they charge up and cease to pull anymore current, the circuit normalizes. And so, the last capacitor out from the power supply on the the far side of the 0.01 H choke becomes the place that the alternating charge of L1 is deposited on.  And then a current of around 8mA peak to peak leaks through to the power supply.  So the power supply input now has dropped way down around 8mA peak to peak in that range (around 80mW input).  While the 60mA peak to peak charge for our circuit now circulates from the 10000uF cap at 10V.  LTspice reveals that the charge is taken only from this capacitor on one half cycle and then replaced back on the other and so, the charge is replenished via cycle alterations back and forth.  And the efficiency of the over unity expression of this model as computed by LTspice after all is charged up and normalized.  Is great.

It seemed to make sense to me, so I modeled it and the software shows me that it agrees with my assumption.  Just like it does with all of my model assumptions.  Which to say the least boogles me.  But its all fun to work with and ponder.

So as far as my working Spice models go, you ain't seen nothing yet.  I know what I have designed and am going to pull out for you all to simulate.  So, it all just gets stranger and stranger as we go.  You'll see.

Well let me just add the file to download in this reply here immediately below and allow some people to ponder that simulation in software.

This is the low powered 2N5550 transistor model.  L2 in this model is 0.5H.

LTspice plots V1 power in to be, after charge up is ceased:

(+)4.5mW + (-)74.09mW

versus C3 power output

(+)744.7mW + (-)709.26mW (with some peaks varying)

Offline hoptoad

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2009, 02:29:20 PM »
@ D. R. Jackson, I have a simple question.

In your circuit shown above, can I assume that the emitter of Q1, and one leg of the input signal leads are connected directly to a common negative?

This is an important aspect of the circuit to me that needs clarifying before I can offer any pertinent comments on the circuit operation.
I grew up in the analogue era, and designed many audio (sine wave) amplifiers in my youth.

Cheers

Offline Paul-R

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Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 04:06:01 PM »
When using simulation software, it is essential to bear in mind the rules that govern
the programming of the package. Generally speaking, these rules will be those of
conventional physics.

Much of what is being worked on here uses concepts beyond conventional physics; not
necessarily always breaking these rules, but going beyond them. The software may not
be able to handle this.

(For instance, several workers are working on negative resistors and getting results.
What happens if they are placed in this software?)

 

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