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Author Topic: The ever elusive magnetic motor  (Read 21024 times)

Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2009, 08:44:41 PM »
Thanks for the update bill, what changes did you make to get more revs?

Reduced the slight coging effect that was occurring between the stator magnet and the large neo
Slightly stronger magnets in the stator assembly focusing on the rotor magnets
Reducing slightly the space to a optimum point between the two stator magnets and the rotor magnets.

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2009, 08:44:41 PM »

Offline Ergo

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2009, 12:57:08 AM »
Next video is up showing 7 complete revolutions- work in progress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DTwMf1OUN4&layer_token=f795fbbc20d803c5

I'll give it to you straight and hard.....it won't work and it never will.
I only see a device slowing down. There is simply no excess energy.
Your device does not accelerate between the sticky spots. It's a dead end.
Without any acceleration you loose energy on each turn. Acceleration is a necessity.
You would do a lot better if you mounted a spring release to a flywheel and let go.
That would spin 30-50 revolutions by the momentum if the ball bearing was classy.
But it would finally stop, as your device does.

Please continue to build and learn. Knowledge is always a good thing.
Don't listen to my fooolish words...I'm simply the judging crowd.

Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2009, 03:45:05 AM »
I think you are failing to see or hear what I have been saying. My goal is to be able to reintroduce the stator to the turning rotor assembly at about its mid point. When the device is started up I can keep it going by moving the stator every other turn. The point of achieving as many multiple revolutions as possible is not to see how far it goes before it runs down but to have enough torque to energize the stator. At now 7 revolutions there is a lot of torque during the first revolution and it is that energy I plan to use. Never say never.
Right now you are looking at a device which is moving through the magnetic gate purely on permanent magnet power. The device is started from a static position and achieves multiple revolutions through the gate.
This has not been done before!
I have read many times that there was no way for any combination of magnets to push a rotor through the gate since the rotor would naturally slow down and not have enough energy to get Thur the gate. Since this device shows the rotor moving past the gate numerous times  then the energy being produced is MORE ( or in excess) than enough to cause these multiple revolutions to occur.
One more time, when the device is spinning and I move the stator to meet the spinning rotor platform in the middle ( and move it back)  I can keep the device spinning continuously.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 05:11:22 AM by billmehess »

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2009, 03:45:05 AM »
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Offline Ergo

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2009, 12:49:04 PM »
This has not been done before!

Oh yes it has...over and over.
It's only the initial release energy you are using. Like a spring.
Just like all the other guys trying on a pure magnet motor concept.
Please continue your design but I'm infinity % sure there is nothing
more to this than stored energy being released.

Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2009, 02:43:05 PM »
Oh yes it has...over and over.
It's only the initial release energy you are using. Like a spring.
Just like all the other guys trying on a pure magnet motor concept.
Please continue your design but I'm infinity % sure there is nothing
more to this than stored energy being released.
Of course its stored energy being released. All "magnetic motors"  begin this way. I ask you the following please show me an example of:

1. Using only permanent magnets  (no springs or heavy fly wheels) a device making multiple revolutions
2. The stator used must be stationary and part of the closed system, in other words not just hand held .
3. The stator must on its own disengage from the system and allow the rotor system to run AND
move through a magnetic gate multiple times (lets say 7 times) before stopping.

What I have here is a sine wave on a decreasing base line slope. The rotor does accelerate each time it goes past the gate or the obvious coging effect would simply stop it. Energy is being lost
on each revolution because the stator is not being reintroduced -at this time- into the system.

 My goal is not to see how many spin down revolutions I can achieve. That is only relevent because it is telling me the amount of initial energy available to me to be used
 to push the stator back up into position to attempt to continue the revolutions.
The device will on its own allow the stator to drop back each revolution . Again
with enough torque being created on the first revolution I would be able to move the stator back into position.
If that amount of initial torque can be generated remains to be seen, but it is to that single goal that I am working to.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 03:07:21 PM by billmehess »

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2009, 02:43:05 PM »
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Offline The Ronin

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2009, 03:15:15 PM »
Great to see the improvements on your device, Bill. I was quite impressed with the torque before, but now it's even better. No doubt this can be further improved if needed at a later date.

I have seen other magnet motors which have got a few a revolutions before but none that have managed to pass the magnetic gate as many times as you have managed with one 'push'.

I remember the guy at magnetnerd.com made something like this but is a firm believer that it just can't be done. I did laugh to myself about the comment of using a "drinking bird" to move the stator. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoiReuIlqMI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM2B-Lp6iTY

I have no doubt that with your no-nonsense approach you will be able to harness the energy to reintroduce the stator to the turning rotor. Whether or not it will produce the desired effect, or can continue to do this is another matter altogether.


Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2009, 05:19:17 PM »

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2009, 05:19:17 PM »
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Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2009, 05:22:13 PM »
Great to see the improvements on your device, Bill. I was quite impressed with the torque before, but now it's even better. No doubt this can be further improved if needed at a later date.

I have seen other magnet motors which have got a few a revolutions before but none that have managed to pass the magnetic gate as many times as you have managed with one 'push'.

I remember the guy at magnetnerd.com made something like this but is a firm believer that it just can't be done. I did laugh to myself about the comment of using a "drinking bird" to move the stator. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoiReuIlqMI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM2B-Lp6iTY

I have no doubt that with your no-nonsense approach you will be able to harness the energy to reintroduce the stator to the turning rotor. Whether or not it will produce the desired effect, or can continue to do this is another matter altogether.

Its certainly a work in progress, I am curious would you please let me know what devices you have seen that gets through the gate on even the first revolution using only permanent magnets and starting from a static position.
As always thank you for your input!

Offline mscoffman

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »
Bill;
 
While I am very impressed with what you have accomplished so far,
you are also espousing beliefs that seem off the mark. Meanwhile, I
want to thank you demonstrating features that allow me to see what
is going on here, and I hope you continue with your attempt. I suggest
that you review the following carefully before you *give up* on this
project, however, even if it means altering your approach.
 
I have a design for a pendulum device, presented below, that I think
takes into account balance of energy issues somewhat more
sensitively than your motor;
 
---
 
The Basic mechanism:
 
A) The pendulum would have the Mylow style rotor magnetic array
mounted on a crescent shaped drive board at its tip. A pendulum is a
better device for this application than a motor rotor because 1)
it's "back and forth form" matches the motion of the "back and forth
form" of the movement of the stator field magnet. Rather then a clutch
for rotary motion. 2) If your magnetic drive array is circular and has a
unitary sticky spot the pendulum does not need to transition the sticky
spot with its field magnet turned on!. It simply uses gravitationally
stored energy to back out of it's own position, back to the beginning.
3) A pendulum is fully self instrumenting since the energy is continually
interchanged between dynamic motion and gravitational stored energy
and is indicated by the limit of the rotor motion. A pendulum almost
begs to be modified and optimized for stored energy.
 
B) A cable drive mechanism; a dual windlass drum would be attached
to pendulum axle at the fulcrum.
 
C) The stator magnet is attached to a disk (rather than a hammer) in
a way as to minimize rotational momentum. Minimizing the rotational
momentum of field drive board is essential because all rotational energy
is dissipated when this drive board hits its stops. It is not necessary to
have this stator field magnet move particularly rapidly.
 
D) The above should be gotten to work rotating the field magnet board
by 180 degrees as the pendulum  is rotated by 100->120 degrees, or
so. Later the stator magnet board would be reduced to 90 degrees
with stops when the storage mechanism (below) is made available,
 
---
 
Escapement Mechanism of the field magnet;
 
E) The key to making the motor/pendulum work is the field magnet
needs to be operated based on an "escapement mechanism". This
guarantees that the field magnet does not change position until all
or most of the rotor drive array magnets have passed it.
 
F) one could use two metal pull pins for field stator movement
synchronization.
 
G) the energy for synchronization pin pulling would be brought in
externally, initially, but this energy would ultimately need to be
supplied from the pendulum itself after the device has become
operational. The pulling pins must not add any energy to the
pendulum.
 
---
 
Energy balance adjustments:
 
H) Convert the windlass drum above to dual drive cones (could be
lucite plastic or wood) so that the position of the cable intersecting
the drum can be adjusted. This would minimize the drive energy pick-
off torque required to activate the field magnet. This is manual
adjustment number one.
 
I) Add two hanging weights that absorb energy by changing of their
relative heights while the escapement mechanism is locked. Manually
adjust the size of the weights to the minimum required to operate the
field magnet. This minimizes the amount of energy being removed from
the pendulum during operation. This is manual adjustment number two.
 
---
 
Magnetic drive;
 
J) Adjust the magnetic drive by making it as powerful as possible. One
way this could be done is:
 
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7770.0
 
Note that one still wants to have a unified sticky spot. The field drive
magnet needs to be able to be inserted in line with the magnetic array
smoothly.
 
K) Note that user Ergo is wrong about the magnetic drive. At the very
least, one can sort the magnets from weakest to strongest, to where
they pull each other through to the field magnet in turn, to spread the
energy being generated over the entire rotor array. This will make the
the sticky spot stronger and rotor drive unidirectional, but so what?
 
---
 
The sole determinant of whether this will work or not is; Is the excess
energy above what it takes to lift the rotor gravitationally, is that
greater than the field rotational momentum energy of the stator field
magnet? Friction in the mechanism is factorable therefore is not as
important.
 
{eod}
 
---
 
In your motor design I'm concerned that the strong puck magnet is
being pushed out the way laterally by the hammer when it drops - this
initial acceleration will need to paid back during the disk rotation as the
field hammer is reset and doesn't necessarily represent gained energy.
 
S:MarkSCoffman
 

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »
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Offline YeahRight

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2009, 04:18:39 PM »
So, how are you doing with this device?
Any progress to report? Good or bad news is welcome!
I'd love to see a real overunity magnet motor in action!

Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2009, 05:44:56 PM »
I wish I could report progress, but I can't. You really have to work with one of these to see why they most likely will not work. Before a magnetic motor will work there must be some way to introduce additional energy into the sytem to over come the magnetic gate. That is the problem.
What I was doing was pushing the rotor assembly through 7 revolutions and seeing if the rotor would continue to run. In the final analysis even though I did see acceleration as the gate was breached each time I was only seeing basicly a sine wave effect with a ever decreasing amplitude.
Eventually it will slow down a stop. Fun to work with though, thanks for your inquiry.
Bill

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2009, 05:44:56 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2009, 08:05:11 PM »
I wish I could report progress, but I can't. You really have to work with one of these to see why they most likely will not work. Before a magnetic motor will work there must be some way to introduce additional energy into the sytem to over come the magnetic gate. That is the problem.
What I was doing was pushing the rotor assembly through 7 revolutions and seeing if the rotor would continue to run. In the final analysis even though I did see acceleration as the gate was breached each time I was only seeing basicly a sine wave effect with a ever decreasing amplitude.
Eventually it will slow down a stop. Fun to work with though, thanks for your inquiry.
Bill
Have you tried electricity?

Vidar

Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2009, 09:07:39 PM »
Have you tried electricity?

Vidar
Are you serious?

Offline Low-Q

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2009, 10:45:09 PM »
Are you serious?
Well, there is at least one thing you must do, which is to force the magnetic field to temporary collapse at the right time. I can't see so many other ways than using electricity through a coil to make that happen. To collapse a magnetic field temporary, you sort of "steal" or "borrow" energy from the system, just to give it back later when it benifits the rotation or motive movement in the system. There is however loss as friction that probably will stop the system from running.

Offline billmehess

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Re: The ever elusive magnetic motor
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2009, 12:58:27 AM »
Well, there is at least one thing you must do, which is to force the magnetic field to temporary collapse at the right time. I can't see so many other ways than using electricity through a coil to make that happen. To collapse a magnetic field temporary, you sort of "steal" or "borrow" energy from the system, just to give it back later when it benifits the rotation or motive movement in the system. There is however loss as friction that probably will stop the system from running.
Well you can do this with a electromagnet but the idea of a permanent mag. motor is to use  only perm. magnets. Introducing a outside electrical input defeats the purpose.
Paul Sprain tried to do this when he used a paulsing system to kick the spinning rotor past the gate, but the failure of all these approaches is that it uses more energy than what is created so what is the point?

 

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