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Author Topic: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center  (Read 47454 times)

Offline Mark69

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Re: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2011, 03:53:39 PM »

Can you post your reactor here and/ or make a youtube video for everyone to see?  16lpm is really good!  How much power is it using to produce?  What is cost to build unit?  Any chance of making your reactor power a home heater somehow?


Offline motymen

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Re: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 12:07:25 PM »
is anyone selling a spark delay kit?

Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2011, 03:18:47 AM » is the inlet valve open ATDC - would not by then the valve be closed?

Hi Farrah, in a perfect world you would be correct on your assertion,
actually Loner is correct also, but doesn't seem to know why he is.

When a camshaft is ground, there are criteria chosen about
the rate of rise fall and an important thing called "Overlap".

A "Mild" cam in an engine will have a less aggressive rise/fall,
and of course a less aggressive overlap characteristic to it.

So that engine will idle smoothly and perform underwelmingly.

But I'm sure you've heard a gearhead's engine at some point,
it can hardly even idle because it has such aggressive overlap.

It is only efficient at one throttle setting, WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...

Overlap is essential to the proper clearing of the combustion chamber,
as does the proper amount of restrictive back pressure from the exhaust.

Most people don't know that back pressure improves gas milage as an example,
and wonder why it plummets when they put on their fancy (IE: LOUD) custom mufflers.

So in reality, as the piston comes up with the exhaust valve open,
that exhaust valve is still open after it reaches TDC by a fair number of degrees,
as has also the intake valve been open from well before top dead center as well.

The flow and momentum out the exhaust pulls a small amount of the intake gas
out through the head area and into the exhaust manifold during this overlap,
and the waste spark lights that to help to finish burning more of the unburned fuel
from the horribly inefficient combustion engine's horrific implementation.

Poor octane values and low flame front speeds make gas and pistons a poor match,
but hydrogen has an excessively fast flame propagation front speed in comparison,
the fastest of all gases as far as I know...

So even though the momentum of flow out the exhaust
can flush a small amount of intake through the head
and out into the exhaust manifold for the waste spark to work.

The piston will be on It's way down creating a vacuum next
before the flame front can travel back into the intake manifold
causing traditional backfire issues one would expect
with fuels like gasoline (and other slow liquid/gaseous fuels).

Hydrogen is just to darn fast for that trick to work,
and it doesn't need a waste spark anyway
because it is done burning before the piston is even half way down.

On another note,
I think the K.I.S.S. principle has been overlooked here perhaps...

The need isn't for the waste spark to be eliminated via additional crap,
it is for the ignition timing to be obtained from the valvetrain instead,
not from the the crankshaft like is currently done on all (OEM) engines.

It can be mimicked with external gears off of the crankshaft,
but the timing information is already there on the camshaft.

any hall/magnet or coil/magnet fired ignition can be used,
just place the magnet on the camshaft in the first place.

And don't use a neo or other low currie-point magnet...

I will share this one personal point from experience,
I had a small (3.5-HP) motor that had no other use,
you know, the kind perfect to burn out with HHO...  :D

I hand-ground the fall side of the exhaust lobe,
and then the rise side of the intake lobe until
there was no more overlap on the valvetrain.

I went simple and just put a set of points
inside the engine on the cam gear instead,
they overode and suppressed the OEM points,
thus eliminating the waste spark for the test.

The dramatic increase in stability using HHO
was remarkable enough to warrant sharing.

I additionally noted that a piece of paper held across the exhaust pipe
would alternate between being sucked tight against the exhaust pipe's end,
and puffing away to let the exhaust cycle from the piston evacuate the chamber.

In case you didn't catch that,
there was a vacuum upon initial exhaust valve opening...

Makes you wonder if there is a loss of power as the piston overcomes
the post-ignition contraction occurring in the chamber (apparently),
during the rest of the piston's travel downward towards BDC (?).

There may be a need for the cam's exhaust lobe
to have a large overlap on the rise side for HHO,
occurring well into the posr stroke to eliminate losses.

I'm not saying people should start grinding cams of course  :P ,
but I can say with conviction that cams ground for HHO-use
are inevitably going to need to be produced and marketed for conversions.

Do you hear me Detroit ?!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 04:10:13 AM by CompuTutor »

Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2011, 03:28:34 AM »
Some of that just wasn't on topic,
second try.

get something on the cam gear to actuate something,
get that actuation info out via rod/lever/cable/etc.,
use the other end of the above said item employed
to actuate an adjustable ignition trigger and smile.

modify nothing,
add something.

Keep the OEM "crank" trigger,
adjust to a post-TDC setting,
mount an intake valve sensor,
(Think "valve overlap" here...)
OR a cam position info sensor,
use that to thwart the waste spark.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 03:52:24 AM by CompuTutor »

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2011, 09:38:50 PM »
I am probably repeating myself here, but there are just TOO many variables to suggest a single ckt, without knowing the mechanical design of the engine.

I don't think a general circuit would be too hard. The main thing is
having some sort of a waste spark phase sensor, as it would pretty
much have to directly reference the head cam.

I'd want to know if the inverse auto ignition coil would serve as a
step down transformer to produce sufficient DC to run the circuits.

One would do a phase locked loop to find the cycle time then
partition it with the offset dwell time. The waste spark signal
would set the phase. The circuit then would fire into a CD
style ignition circuit. The circuit would have an option of waste
spark or not as some desirable engines like motorcycle engines
my not have it. Most low horsepower non-vehicle engines would
not have a spark advance due to a tendency to operate at fixed


Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 04:11:09 AM »
The minimum IS a set of points on the intake valvetrain,
to augment the OEM points still installed and set retarded,
thus killing the waste spark every other crankshaft revolution.

One single wire from OEM points,
one (additional) set of points,
one hour or so ...

Or move the sensor currently used (and It's magnet)
from the current crankshaft location to the camshaft.

But I really wrote this to introduce another workaround.

There seems to be a growing number of indications from people
that need to harvest power from magneto-ignition style engines
that basically have no other electrical sources to use for this use.

I think electronics on ANY motor is pure folly,
but I'll contribute this alternative thoughtware.  ::)

(Mount a second ignition coilset)

For the most part, most of these keep it simple,
just a magnet in the flywheel is the starting point.

Better versions also have laminations in the flywheel
that bring the other magnet's pole around each side.
(N-S-N  or  S-N-S with the center being the magnet)

Then a stationary open ended "W" frame laminate core
with the center post wound appropriately for the task,
is designed to match the center and two outer flux paths
just like a standard transformer with removable end strap.
(One primary center flux path, dual secondary flux return pathes)

The center pole with the windings gets one pole of the magnet,
while each of the two side laminates (both) get the magnet's other pole.

So rewinding one with a split-length on the two outer poles,
and a second full length wound on the inner pole seperately,
both going through their own FWBR to an electrolytic capacitor
would yield enough power for a simple CDI/coil combo.

there is always room if it is ID mounted (Like a lawn mower),
and not a terrible hassle if OD mounted like newer generator's.

You've got a magnet already mounted,
and it is turning already for you to use,
scavange it with a series of small spools
if that is your current expertise level...

Just remember to use FWBR (Full Wave Bridge Rectifiers)
because both the full "W" frame and even single spools
will inccur both poles from the magnet (NSN / SNS).

Hope this helps somehow.

But I (still) think electronics is a HUGE mistake on engines :-\
If modern motors (Engines...) ran on hydrogen in the first place,
or the playful new variant supplying It's own oxidizer too

You would regulate the gas and air throughput
via a valve body like a traditional carburetor does now !

Make a few new holes in what you have,
make a bigger timing plate instead,
anything to retard the timing.

Then add a second set of points to the OEM,
that close when the intake starts to open
to kill the waste spark.

They will never die or fail ever,
the oil prevents that, I know...

« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 05:06:48 AM by CompuTutor »

Offline altium

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Re: Ignition modification to get motor to run 8 degrees after Top Dead Center
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2012, 05:19:25 PM »
@Stefan, I see mistake in your CDI schematic:

You must add diode parralel to output thyristor (connected in primary stage of ignition coil) for keeping resonant oscillations in this coil. With this method, you will get couple of sparks instead of one spark. And of course you will decrease voltage peaks on thyristor in reverse direction.

See this old (but very good) russian resonant CDI invention, named "OH-427":

Later improvements of these russians CDI is named "plasma ignition" (see "plasma_ignition_original_russian_schem.PDF"). It includes resonant CDI module + TCI module.

On scope shots there is secondary voltage of ignition coil, we can see 2 stages:
1. First firing CDI with couple of strong fading resonant oscillations.
2. Next firing TCI for holding plasma arc.
Summary duration of "plasma" named spark is 6 time more than in usually engines (0,45ms CDI + 2,5ms + 2,3ms TCI).

With this principle, russians are reach Euro 3 without catalytic converters long time ago in 1990-th years.

I attach schematic of last russian combined plasma ignition "Plasma ignition Schematic Prints v1.0.pdf" writed from me and containing CDI+TCI module. But we need ONE improvement in this schem: ground of CDI and TCI must be common. Because if "+12" line is common like original schem (ignition spark passes through "+ wire" of installation and through car battery), it will be generate very big noise in automobile installation. We do not need this.

Future improvements can me maked by replacing two transistored one shots in this schematic with two IC 555 one shots. And DC-DC pulse converter can be realized with MC36043 or other IC.