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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: 1quasar1 on April 16, 2009, 12:27:02 AM

Title: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 16, 2009, 12:27:02 AM
Hello everyone. I have been a member of this forum for a few years now as Cyclops but have had some trouble with my computer and have not been able to log in due to pass code issues. I now have a new address and I'm Back.

I would love you all to check out my  machine on http://www.youtube.com/user/1quasar1 and review it critically.

I hope you enjoy

Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: Justalabrat on April 16, 2009, 01:30:29 AM
I don't have a critical review, but I must say it's a neat looking device!  :)

  justalabrat
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 16, 2009, 02:12:42 AM
Hey thanks justalabrat. I'm working to get a machined version with precision bearings. I am also looking at reducing the number of generators from 4 to two. maybe with synchronous gear motors as possible replacement.
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 18, 2009, 06:11:31 AM
Hi Dave,

What do you want reviewed?

I saw the video.

A pendulum, nicely and intricately built, but so?

What is it you are showing?

Phil
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 18, 2009, 04:35:40 PM
Thanks for the kind reply Philip. Guess I'm just looking for any Ideas that might improve my set up or even stop me before I hit the wall I can't see ahead.  :)
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 18, 2009, 04:43:03 PM
hi,

I am only too happy to help or advise or give input.

what is your goal?

Is it an energy device or a means of converting energy from say wave action to electricity?

phil
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 18, 2009, 06:48:34 PM
I would say my goal is not as well defined as it should be. A while back I noticed how well a baby swing moved weight and consumed very little energy. It seemed to me that there should be some way to covert this to power generation. After seeing Milkovic’s device I felt encouraged to make a working model of my idea.
 
Improving efficiency of what I have I suppose.

My limited education leaves me ill equipped to make valid arguments in this forum so I’m stuck with trial and error and any advice I receive. There are “to me” obvious problems without deductive capacity or a fat enough wallet to solve.

I can see from the tests that if I lessen the load, I get more travel of the lever and less cycles from the pendulum. So that tells me if I decrease friction, I will increase the power needed to drive the pendulum.  If I increase the load I loose distance. If I increase the gear ratios, gear lash and friction are greater.   
I accept your offer
Thanks
Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 19, 2009, 05:56:47 AM
Hi 1quasar1,

I think you are right to find the pendulum a thought provoking device.

It does have a beautiful simplicity to it.

In weighing it is used as a near frictionless balance with a knife sitting in a v-groove.

As a means of transport it could be interesting if instead of a cable chair system we had pendulums that simply transfer loads a bit like Tarzan swinging in the jungle.

If the friction losses are very low then perhaps a number of such pendulums could convey cargo down a gentle slope with no power needed.

Since lots of communities need to transport from highlands to the coast for export there could be something worthwhile in a zero power consumption pendulum conveyor. It would also be a fantastic tourist drawcard.

What do you think?

Phil
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 19, 2009, 06:57:08 AM
Thinking hurts my head Phil, but that felt like a 2x4 hit me. ??? Looks like more trial and error.
I will try and post a video tomorrow showing some of the effects I've observed.
Thanks
Dave
 
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 19, 2009, 07:26:30 AM
I'II look forward to seeing that Dave.

Phil
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 21, 2009, 03:42:41 AM
Hello again everyone. I have a new video posted on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/1quasar1 please forgive the quality and amateur presentation. Not my bag. 8)  I will try to get a better camera and have a better layout as soon as possible. Until then. 
Thanks for watching and please feel free to comment.
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 21, 2009, 06:31:48 PM
Hello Jim. It is a simple question and my answer  is yes but to achieve that for me is a lofty goal. However I am quite a stubborn mechanic and not afraid of failure or criticism. The problem as I see it, is maintaining any consistent arc with variables in the load. I think that 90 degrees would be sufficient if lash and friction were reduced. As to driving the pendulum I have tried a crank and collapsing rod approach and found that the gear motor driven unloaded used as much energy as the unit put out and spiked from being push back loaded. Can't use that approach but it showed me that this will not come easy. Any advice is welcome and appreciated. I will keep trying and posting any finds.
Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: oscar on April 21, 2009, 08:03:24 PM
Hi 1quasar1,

I hope you manage to achieve your goal.
I recently did some searching in the database of the European patent office.
And I found an oldish patent (DE3326663) and got reminded of it when i saw your set-up.
One difference to your's is, that you have the 'carriage' sliding horizontally below the pendulum whereas in the patent he has placed it above.
There also seems to be a ratchet mechanism involved to keep it going.
And as far as I understand his carriage gets tilted a tiny bit, when it is in the displaced position. But am not sure.

You probably won't be able to read it, for German not being your language, but maybe you 'enjoy' the drawings.

See at:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=DE&NR=3326663A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=19850502&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_V3 (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=DE&NR=3326663A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=19850502&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_V3)
The drawings are at the end of the original document.
You can download the whole pdf document.

Good luck with your endeavors.
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: gyulasun on April 22, 2009, 01:02:25 AM

You probably won't be able to read it, for German not being your language, but maybe you 'enjoy' the drawings.


Hi Folks,

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?adjacent=true&KC=A1&date=19850502&NR=3326663A1&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=DE&FT=D

If you click on the Description icon in the Menu line under the title of the patent you will get the German text page of the patent (unfortunately with several spelling mistakes, unlike the PDF text)  and you will see a Translate icon in the right hand side. By clicking on the Translate, you will receive the computer translation of the German text into English in a new page.  Unfortunately the spelling problems will be 'untranslateable' to the their software, besides some technical words, but all in all it will be more useful than nothing.

rgds, Gyula
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 22, 2009, 01:34:02 AM
Many thanks Oscar and Gyula. I looked at this device and I'm not sure I fully grasp the concept but I have picked the site as a favorite and will study it more. I would not have seen the translation button had you not mentioned it Gyula. Thanks again.

Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: oscar on April 22, 2009, 07:43:26 AM
Hi 1quasar1,
I am insecure, so please forgive the question:
do your tests show, that the amplitude of the pendulum decreases less, when it has to power an electrical load?.
Or same question put the other way round: does the pendulum's amplitude decrease faster when there is no electrical load (motor or LEDs) attached?

Thx.
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 22, 2009, 05:13:56 PM
Hey Oscar. Nothing to forgive.( I should mark my own words )  I'm happy to answer your questions where I'm able. I think if you watch the first video closely, you will see that in the unloaded test, there are fewer cycles than when loaded. I'm pretty sure that some energy is lost in the lever arc. The greater the degree, the more loss. However I think the loss could be reduced with less friction at the pendulum axle. Once friction and any excess lash are reduced, I think that optimal lever travel could be determined based on the load. Do you have any electronics experience? I had an idea for pulsing the pendulum based on its travel speed to make up for any variables in the load.

Dave 
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 22, 2009, 06:31:22 PM
Hello Jim. Is there any way you could send a drawing of you idea. I think I  follow, but would like to be sure. As the device stands now, I have 4 ea. flashlight generators, 2 on each side. They are linked in series and their output is rectified by one of the original flashlight circuits. I have come to understand that 3 ph permanent magnet alternators are much more efficient, but I'm not near versed in this field as I would like. I know just enough to be dangerous. Thanks for your assistance.

Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: oscar on April 23, 2009, 07:50:05 AM
Hi 1quasar1
....you will see that in the unloaded test, there are fewer cycles than when loaded...
So that means that you would want to strengthen this feedback effect so that the loading adds power to the swing - and that this feedback or backlash 'kicks in' or 'hits back' at the right moment of each cycle.
I think the similarity to the mentioned patent is, that in the patent the load is purely mechanical but he also tries to establish and exploit such a feedback process.
I wish I could grasp it better myself.

Do you have any electronics experience?
No, but there is a good chance that somebody reads your posts and might step in to help, when you pose your question.
I hope.
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 23, 2009, 06:00:02 PM
Hello Oscar. Thanks for your posts. You just reminded me that I should show how much mechanical resistance there presently is. ( well, minus bearings) I think the next demo I will show the amount of torque required to actuate the lever with all the generators removed. This will leave only the centering springs to overcome and give us some idea of how much friction could possibly be reduced. I'm leaning towards trying to power just one very large motor/generator with a bow type setup as the one you see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKoAwFFwPY. Thanks again Oscar.

Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 24, 2009, 05:16:14 PM
Hello Jim. Thanks for taking the time to draw and explain. I agree that time and distance are increased on an object following a circular path over a straight line. However, I also think that disrupting that path could only decrease velocity further if the path were to remain consistent with arc of a pendulum. As I have noticed with my set up, the fulcrum (pendulum axle) does shift and it would seem to reduce the number of swings as compaired to being fixed. So I will conduct another experiment to confirm one way or another.

Thought provoking. Now I have to turn this thing upside down to see the results of changing the lever arc.
Thanks you

Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 24, 2009, 05:26:13 PM
Wow! were on at the same time.  I have to leave now though. I'll be gone for a few days spreading my fathers ashes on Roosevelt lake and will not have access to the internet. I will study your latest post on my return. Thanks again.

Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on April 29, 2009, 02:08:20 AM
Hello again Jim. So if I follow you correctly, the fulcrum would ride on or in a vertical axis. Were you thinking maybe a spring? A wheel in a channel? Both? I really meant it when I said I'm going to turn this thing upside down. So keep stirring the pot and the plot will thicken.  Thanks for your help and thoughts again. I guess this site will have issues next couple of days so I'll chat at ya later.

Dave
Title: Re: Powell's Power Pendulum
Post by: 1quasar1 on May 01, 2009, 02:48:02 AM
Hey Jim, Now that I think about it, the Milkovic Two Stage Mechanical Oscillator has a somewhat vertically shifting pendulum fulcrum and it seems to have a positive effect. I'll have to think a little more about this. I'll be posting a new video soon.

Ciao
Dave