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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: iacob alex on April 14, 2009, 08:11:28 AM

Title: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 14, 2009, 08:11:28 AM

   ...can be an amusement toy ,for someone involved in self-motion, due to gravity.

      Thus,again take a look at :   www.geocities.com/iacob_alex/Some_Drafts/text013.jpg

      In this drawing,take off the "green" mass (M1)  and the "red" mass(M2).

      Right now,we have a simplified design:

        -a hoop,ring /playing as a rolling support

        -a connecting rod /playing as an eccentric mass

        -two lock-unlock systems

               All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 15, 2009, 04:38:00 AM

    ...might be perceived as a self-running "oddity".

       We can find, some essential features of the stepping creatures,on a horizontal surface ,but this time in and due to a "cascade"/gravity flow :

        -a particular manner of running,the  tumbling motion

        -two "legs",switching every step the CoG (connecting rod) out of balance,on the same direction

        - a body (hoop) that plays the charge-discharge sequence as an inertial "muscle"(gravitational fall moves into rotational energy).

                           All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 16, 2009, 04:56:16 AM

    ...might be perceived (like in a humorous cartoon...) as a common "oddity", by the rest of the natural creatures : it moves as us,the humans.

  The two-legs stepping motion,you know,is the act of moving by raising one foot after another ,and bringing every one down forward .

  In the most simplified understanding,we can picture a body-shape (with a CoG) and two stepping appendages.

  By the way:do we need more then two legs?!

                                                All the Bests! / Alex           
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 21, 2009, 04:56:34 AM

  ...  performs a particular fall of CoG in gravity :it takes more time than a direct,natural ,on the vertical line free fall.

       In this situation,we gain a certain amount of disponible "gratis work" ("effort"*long distance).

       A shorter-time,back trajectory,on the vertical line,can be a jump-up motion,as a smaller necessary "work"("effort" * short distance),so to have a "self motion"(to close the loop).

       So,it seems that ,we have a hope regarding a "difference work' that we can take out...but a new problem,also. .

       The problem reffers to the immersed/"burried' part of this "gratis work",that remains in the pivot/fulcrum,as a radial component of the gravity acceleration and rotational inertia.

        Can we take it out,for our advantage?

        As a whole,we have a "hidden",put out of sight,possible workable energy difference...

                   All the Bests! / Alex

       
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 21, 2009, 10:08:06 PM

     Hi  Jim !

 I know a lot of things about trebuchet...

 It throws a weight horizontally (distance).

 My suggestion at the topic "Play trebuchet..." was ,to use it vertically (height).

 Some of my designs applies this "modification".

 One of them at :   www.geocities.com/iacob_alex/Some_Drafts/text048.jpg   

 In my opinion,we can get self-motion ,if we organize an asymmetric power process.

 If we have a more powerful fall ,then a set-up  back,we realize the self-motion and can take out "free" power.

 The "falling chimney" phenomena (see topic)  can help us : faster than "g" fall vs. "g" jump-back.

         All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 22, 2009, 04:01:19 AM
       
       Hi Jim!
 
 I must confess you,that "Trebuchet pendulum"(..048...),is a special case.

 Take a look at   www.hp-gramatke.net/perpetuum/index.htm   

 Here,again at "Typical asymmetric Wheel".

 I agree,it's not a working model.

 Anyway? Let's see...

 -we dismantle the wheel,but not two opposite spokes : we have a lever,a "minimal" wheel ,only.

 -the two masses (red and blue on my design) are equal

 -due to this change,we can  play the "classic" long arm-short arm,on the same side of the fulcrum

 -the blue mass is fixed : has a medium,middle size arm

 -the red mass is mobile :changes as a longer or shorter arm face to blue's medium arm

 -the key problem appears:how to get a "self" for this changing size arm?

 When the red mass is in the bottom position,it changes easy,without any "help" as a smaller arm.

 The only one problem appears near to top position:it must become greater than the blue's mass medium arm.

 Here the red mass needs some "inner" help,so to topple up.

 "Inner" help =some push,some stored power from a continuous,uninterrupted free fall of ~340 degrees(it seems strange ,but it's real!).

  The next ~(20-30) degrees(to make the loop),we must topple-up the red mass with a greater arm, than that of the blue mass.

 My proposal is to use a trebuchet(or trampoline...) effect,so to jump up the red mass,as a longer then blue's medium arm.

 If we add a simple rotational storage system(the great blue mass/a heavy hub),we can imitate the electrical capacitor process :long charge-short discharge of the unbalance(arm difference).

 You can see a small arrow -like arm :it works like " push-button".

 Sorry that ,now and here in US,I am out of possibilities to make some tests...I am living on rent space. 

 In my opinion the model has a simplicity, that asks for some easy at hand-put in working order.

 For the moment,our calculus in nonlinearty,is out of question...we can set to rights,as our ancestors in the Middle-Age.

 Thanks,for your suggestion ,regarding the "fixed" mass:we can play this model in a variety of shapes and dimensions.
 
 By the way,this is among others, my favorite model:it has a certain charm  of a long history.

                 All the bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 22, 2009, 10:21:58 PM

         Hi P-Motion !

  Thanks for your suggestion:I decided to enter into reality.

  I can't build and test my designs,as I said ,because living in a rented space here in Costa Mesa/CA

  So ,on You Tube ,I find a handicraft person, and I made a simple proposal to make a team .

  Now,let's see the developments of this opening move...

        All the Bests ! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 24, 2009, 04:38:40 AM

         Hi Jim !

  As I said,I'm living on a rented space,with no possibilities to test my designs.

  More : the next week I will change the address.

  So,about your letter,depending on your" hurry ",I can give the actual of the future  "to" location.

  You intend to use wood material...Why?

   It reminds me others "clumsy" models...including Evert's.

   By the way,you must visit    www.evert.de     it's an useful site ,to learn so much about the topic of this section-forum.
   
   For instance,you can see his wooden model at    www.evert.de/eft730e.htm

   Evert is a brilliant german mind,but...as himself recognizes not so handicraft.It happens...he is involved in a huge theoretical domain.

   His  designs that uses an asymmetic pendulum(a bended lever,nothing more...) was a source of inspiration for some of my models. For me,he was as an excellent teacher.

       All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 24, 2009, 06:36:53 PM

            Hi Jim !

   When we study the "anatomy"  of  a new process ,the best way is to start with the "skeleton" idea.

   For the topic of this forum/gravity powered devices , in my opinion ,the central word is "asymmetry".

   So ,when I visited   www.evert.de   it was easy for me, to select some details on this line.

   A line/bar and a fulcrum/pivot/support gives us a lever.

   A  bended line/bar (not in the middle...) and a fulcrum,gives us an asymmetric pendulum.

   If you practice any kind of abstract work (science,art,everyday life...),the first rule is "less is more" :this is the  starting point.

   On and around the "skeleton",we can build as in a real world...if not,that's science-fiction.

   The world is open for everybody :the problem is "know-how"... we see and understand the things.

   The "clumsy" expression was intended about wood material.

   In a public domain,like internet an  idea becomes a  common  "property".

         All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on April 26, 2009, 03:23:00 AM

       Hi Jim !

 As I understand,you are not in your best condition...so,as in a game,maybe is better to take a time-out.

 An internet forum,it's a virtual swap space,where money is out of discussion,normally,but... if we remind the human condition,it's natural to take care about our pockets,you know...only if you have something inside

Really,I am not interested so much about gravity powered devices...it was as a training  to develop possible inertial rotors from my old "gallery".

The point of interest was the common properties of these domains(energy&transport),that in my opinion ,will  open unimaginable opportunities in the near future...when people will be conscious of them.

I suggest you,that after the rest period,to begin with a simple test of your ideas,so that people of this forum can appreciate you.

So,take care of you.
                                        All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on May 11, 2009, 07:50:01 AM

    Hi Jim !

  As usually,the best teacher is reality.

  The problem is not the "intelectual property" in an open space,as this forum.

  An idea,if it can be a real solution,is a "key" to open the curiosity of people interested to build and test solutions.

 The believers,in any domain are so diverse...but the people who realize are most important.

 For me,the "key" is simplicity  of pendulum...

     All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: Low-Q on May 12, 2009, 12:36:06 AM
   ...can be an amusement toy ,for someone involved in self-motion, due to gravity.

      Thus,again take a look at :   www.geocities.com/iacob_alex/Some_Drafts/text013.jpg

      In this drawing,take off the "green" mass (M1)  and the "red" mass(M2).

      Right now,we have a simplified design:

        -a hoop,ring /playing as a rolling support

        -a connecting rod /playing as an eccentric mass

        -two lock-unlock systems

               All the Bests! / Alex
Well. Simply put: A mass that starts and ends in the same hight, cant gain energy. Not much help, but it might help to inform something that might make you guys think in another direction to gain OU :)

Vidar
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on May 17, 2009, 08:06:15 AM

     Hi Vidar !

  Your statement,manifesto ..."a mass that starts and ends in the same hight,can't give energy"...was put into a minimal expression,long time ago as an  "m*g*h  interdiction " in a potential field .

 This is the old lesson "on  paper",if you remind our high school.

 If you agree,that the best teacher is reality(experiment),we can tackle two cases ,only:

 -m*g*h,or simply "h" intediction is correct,and "lasciate ogni spranza"

 -"h" interdiction is a scientific "falsetto",and we have a real hope...

  It's difficult,in my opinion, to imagine a more "abecedarian" experiment than a self-moving hoop ...the problem is that we like too much the simulation(computer,paper,mentally beliefs) ,but not the a real simple test.

 Where are you Aldo Costa,Vandugegs and others?
 
       All the Bests! / Alex   
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: Low-Q on May 17, 2009, 01:56:59 PM
     Hi Vidar !

  Your statement,manifesto ..."a mass that starts and ends in the same hight,can't give energy"...was put into a minimal expression,long time ago as an  "m*g*h  interdiction " in a potential field .

 This is the old lesson "on  paper",if you remind our high school.

 If you agree,that the best teacher is reality(experiment),we can tackle two cases ,only:

 -m*g*h,or simply "h" intediction is correct,and "lasciate ogni spranza"

 -"h" interdiction is a scientific "falsetto",and we have a real hope...

  It's difficult,in my opinion, to imagine a more "abecedarian" experiment than a self-moving hoop ...the problem is that we like too much the simulation(computer,paper,mentally beliefs) ,but not the a real simple test.

 Where are you Aldo Costa,Vandugegs and others?
 
       All the Bests! / Alex   
Experiments in practice shows that all other ways to lift a mass a given hight requires the same energy regardless of its path. So why does not this apply to the gravity wheel, or hoop...? I believe that there is enough practical experiments that prooves the theory.

An experiment will therfor be yet another proof of this theory.

Vidar
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on May 17, 2009, 09:52:53 PM

    Hi Vidar!

  If so (the integral loop in a potential field is null and void),they missed the inertial effects:the "resistive underworld" ,that's inertia.

 Again,we have here two possibilities:

 -if the "h" interdiction (that takes into account the gravity,only..) is correct,a reasonable person will close the "PM dream shop"...it's simply a waste of time.

 -it the "h" interdiction is an ideative misconception,we have the chance of experiments..to help the evolution of the old theory.

 By the way: a wheel has many spokes,a hoop only two.

 A wheel becomes "frozen" in this specific accelerating gravity flow:it acts as a comparative,weighting machine,nothing more.

 A hoop,lever can take advantage for a longer fall...so to store and use it later...here,it's a big difference.

    All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: Low-Q on May 17, 2009, 11:12:08 PM
    Hi Vidar!

  If so (the integral loop in a potential field is null and void),they missed the inertial effects:the "resistive underworld" ,that's inertia.

 Again,we have here two possibilities:

 -if the "h" interdiction (that takes into account the gravity,only..) is correct,a reasonable person will close the "PM dream shop"...it's simply a waste of time.

 -it the "h" interdiction is an ideative misconception,we have the chance of experiments..to help the evolution of the old theory.

 By the way: a wheel has many spokes,a hoop only two.

 A wheel becomes "frozen" in this specific accelerating gravity flow:it acts as a comparative,weighting machine,nothing more.

 A hoop,lever can take advantage for a longer fall...so to store and use it later...here,it's a big difference.

    All the Bests! / Alex
But still the weights in a hoop is limited within a given mechanical length or radius, that determine how high or how low the weight can go. So where one weight applies energy, another weight will take the very same energy back - OR the same weight will later take back what it supplied earlier. These mechanisms is applied to all weights that is working on any gravitywheel regardless of construction. Gravity is just so damn conservative, and most of us does not see the whole picture - hence many discussions, verbal fights, and lots of pain. So, yes, the PM dream shop is a waste of time. It's better to use the energy that is already supplied by the sun. It will cause less pain, more energy, and shorter discussions ;)

I sometimes wonder what I am doing in this forum ;D

Vidar
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on May 18, 2009, 01:52:53 AM

    Hi Vidar!

 As we say in Europe :"parole,parole...",nothing interesting than a plenty of words.

 The person that will have the curiosity to test my proposed designs,and will find a single one working model,has the chance to take "everything on the table"...this is rule of this many hundred years "lottery".

 Energy and transport,in my opinion have a common root symbol:pendulum,a mass that engages inertia.

 Really,I am interested for the next step,the inertial/pendular propulsion,as I said some times ago (1999) on my web page.

 Regarding this viewpoint,I made some proposal already,but it seems that the "quarrel" is too much noisy for me...

 Anyway,I can go away from these topics ,with a personal thinking...

    All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on May 24, 2009, 09:02:42 AM

  ...can be seen as a "relative" to the well known "cart and pole" robotic problem,a classic lab-demo in dynamics.

     This time,the cart becomes a single wheel,and the  inverted pendulum becomes "free" to use gravity and rotational inertia...without any restriction.

     All the "control theory" comes to be,a simple connecting rod ...

           All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on May 25, 2009, 06:57:51 AM

   ...is designed as a concise simulation of the walking and running gaits,as exemples of the human movement.

      Here,maybe we can find a common starting point for energy/gravity powered device  and transport /inertial(pendular) propulsion.

      Usually,the walking sequence is simplified to the motion of an inverted pendulum,and the main problem is to keep stability...

      Contrary,for a self-moving hoop,seen as an inverted pendulum,the main question ,is the endless instability...the oscillating "cart and pole" problem changes into a tumbling "pole" puzzle.

         All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Self-moving hoop...
Post by: iacob alex on July 11, 2009, 04:40:11 AM

   ...takes advantage of the Milkovic's "superiority of pendulum drive",you can watch at :   www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuTMYgQDUzs

      It's a fresh movie in my e-box from Veljko...about a cart with a pendulum,he has in view to use for pendular propulsion,I guess...

      Here,Milkovic shows that a pendular fall vs. a vertical fall,of the same mass,between the same gravitational levels,develops more kinetic power.

      So,a pendular fall can supply a vertical jump up,so to close the loop ...and take out some power?!

         All the Best! / Alex