Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 05:57:53 AM

Title: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 05:57:53 AM
See link >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bULi4j9PGFM
If anyone does not believe this is the real thing you are invited to come to my home and perform the test youself.
Just contact me at lafontegroup@charter.net to set a date and time.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Michelinho on April 09, 2009, 06:13:16 AM

Hi Butch,

I use these magnets in my Newman motor and they have 87.6 lb of pull each. No grip enough to pull them apart, I twist them 180 degree to be able to do so. Those are lethal.   ;D

Nice video, take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 09, 2009, 11:56:25 AM
Hi Butch,

Saw your video and I accept what I saw.

However before you can make a claim that is worthwhile surely you need to put forward a theory, a model and some data.

You say it is overunity, on what basis do you say so, where are your figures.

I am as you can see someone who has put forward ideas too. Curled Ballistic thermionics and Rotating thermionic generator. Now I have offered a $1,000 prize to anyone who can find a flaw.

There have been no takers!

In fact I have now 4 professors and a handfull of engineers that agree with me but still no body is taking any interest.

What excites this community is a video of something working and to be frank showing the modifiaction of attraction between 2 magnets proves nothing.

You on the other hand simply say you believe. I think that is not nearly enough to get debate going.

I am only too happy to debate this with you to stimulate things if you want to put forward data and proper theory.

Regards

Phil
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 12:13:38 PM
Phil that is why this community is perverted. You show them the concept step by step and it's not enough they want to see the end result...but ironically when they do they want to see the concept step by step or they will call you a fake.

So in the end you either contribute with your own skills (which is something very rare on this forum) or you don't contribute with anything at all. That's how fast progress is made.

Butch we'll get there. The concept has been proven many times only need some machines to build a fully fledged motor  ;D.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 05:56:03 PM
Hi Butch,

Saw your video and I accept what I saw.

However before you can make a claim that is worthwhile surely you need to put forward a theory, a model and some data.

You say it is overunity, on what basis do you say so, where are your figures.

I am as you can see someone who has put forward ideas too. Curled Ballistic thermionics and Rotating thermionic generator. Now I have offered a $1,000 prize to anyone who can find a flaw.

There have been no takers!

In fact I have now 4 professors and a handfull of engineers that agree with me but still no body is taking any interest.

What excites this community is a video of something working and to be frank showing the modification of attraction between 2 magnets proves nothing.

You on the other hand simply say you believe. I think that is not nearly enough to get debate going.

I am only too happy to debate this with you to stimulate things if you want to put forward data and proper theory.

Regards

Phil
Phil,
The public will only accept a self runner as proof and I don't blame them at all. That is what it will take to prove to the public and to myself that what I think is fact.
If I get a self runner my home will be open to all that want to come by and see it running.
So the next step is not to debate, but to build a self runner. At this time I am just keeping the public up to date with our progress and hopes. But don't worry I'm not going to start selling plans. I would and will give plans away for free should anyone want them.
Regards,
Butch
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 06:02:26 PM
Hi Butch,

I use these magnets in my Newman motor and they have 87.6 lb of pull each. No grip enough to pull them apart, I twist them 180 degree to be able to do so. Those are lethal.   ;D

Nice video, take care,

Michel


Michel,
I love this work, but I hate handling those large NIB magnets. I can't imagine working with NIB magnets much larger.
Thanks for your support,
Butch
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 06:15:07 PM
Butch, why not apply that old piston design on this one. Here's a video for this concept;

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/exvid55.avi

Someone in the group should seriously spend some in their machine shop on this. What's the point of free energy if we don't help each other achieve it.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: lostcauses10x on April 09, 2009, 06:33:10 PM
Were is measurement and data.  Again you make claims with out it. How long have you been doing this? You should know that such is always needed when you say it is OU. 

You just show a lot of mass in motion, and a hell of a lot more work to get your bars into position to prove your point than you will get in that short amount of work you show with the magnets coming together.

 It still is a work in to work out thing.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 06:35:42 PM
Butch, why not apply that old piston design on this one. Here's a video for this concept;

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/exvid55.avi

Someone in the group should seriously spend some in their machine shop on this. What's the point of free energy if we don't help each other achieve it.
Broli,
I like that configuration, maybe its my internal combustion engine background that makes it appeal to me. Can you imagine if those magnets were 6" diameter NIB grade 50. Your right, people need to start working with this. There is enough torque available to pull a train.
Butch
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 07:00:42 PM
Were is measurement and data.  Again you make claims with out it. How long have you been doing this? You should know that such is always needed when you say it is OU. 

You just show a lot of mass in motion, and a hell of a lot more work to get your bars into position to prove your point than you will get in that short amount of work you show with the magnets coming together.

 It still is a work in to work out thing.

I keep saying this. RESEARCH! It's people like you who will never change their attitudes. When all the data and measurements are shown you don't go "oh yes now I'm with you", no your tremendously ignorant ego will block this reaction. No matter what is shown or proven you will always disapprove. The fact you made this post proves it or else you would have informed yourself better. Be happy that you got a reaction at all from someone.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: chrisC on April 09, 2009, 07:05:31 PM
Butch, why not apply that old piston design on this one. Here's a video for this concept;

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/exvid55.avi

Someone in the group should seriously spend some in their machine shop on this. What's the point of free energy if we don't help each other achieve it.

Thanks Broli. That was a nice animation showing the concept clearly. Do you know of whether there are YouTube videos or others out there? Thanks again

cheers
chrisC
Title: Proof balance systems supports overunity at this point in project
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 10:24:40 PM
Were is measurement and data.  Again you make claims with out it. How long have you been doing this? You should know that such is always needed when you say it is OU. 

You just show a lot of mass in motion, and a hell of a lot more work to get your bars into position to prove your point than you will get in that short amount of work you show with the magnets coming together.

 It still is a work in to work out thing.
See this new video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LOkMsh9dqk
Title: New video to prove balance system supports overunity of design at this point
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 10:26:54 PM
See this new link > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LOkMsh9dqk
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 09, 2009, 10:43:32 PM
See link >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bULi4j9PGFM
If anyone does not believe this is the real thing you are invited to come to my home and perform the test youself.
Just contact me at lafontegroup@charter.net to set a date and time.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
The two steel bars you have there will make it easier to pull the magnets apart. But it require a lot of force to pull those steel bars apart from the magnets too.

The only thing that has happen here is that the magnetic flux is getting "busy" with the steel bar instead of the fields from the other magnet. You have only moved the force. As there is the same number of magnetic lines with or without the steel bars, there is no net change in force taking place. This experiment also shows how a magnetic shield fails to work as desired, as the magnetic flux is allways accounted for, and are affected by all including magnets in the system accordingly. What I mean is that a shield does not only affect the shielded magnet, but also other magnets in the system.

Therefor I cannot see this as something new or undiscovered properties of steel and magnets. They behave as they should taking the system into account.

br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 09, 2009, 10:48:09 PM
The two steel bars you have there will make it easier to pull the magnets apart. But it require a lot of force to pull those steel bars apart from the magnets too.

The only thing that has happen here is that the magnetic flux is getting "busy" with the steel bar instead of the fields from the other magnet. You have only moved the force. As there is the same number of magnetic lines with or without the steel bars, there is no net change in force taking place. This experiment also shows how a magnetic shield fails to work as desired, as the magnetic flux is allways accounted for, and are affected by all including magnets in the system accordingly. What I mean is that a shield does not only affect the shielded magnet, but also other magnets in the system.

Therefor I cannot see this as something new or undiscovered properties of steel and magnets. They behave as they should taking the system into account.

br.

Vidar
I believe you are wrong on every point, but thanks again for the input.
Regards,
Butch
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 11:02:13 PM
Butch you will learn that Vidar on this forum can be a thorn in your eye.
Title: Re: Proof balance systems supports overunity at this point in project
Post by: Low-Q on April 09, 2009, 11:02:25 PM
See this new video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LOkMsh9dqk
You forget that the magnetic field is stronger within a shorter range when the magnets are together. Move the bar 1cm (1cm is just an example) up away from the magnets when they are apart, and do the same when the magnets are together. When the magnets are together the magnetic flux affecting the bar will dissappear sooner, as there is a shorter distance between the magnets and the magnetic flux will therfor sooner jump over to its neighbour instead of having a grip on the bar when the bar moves away.
However, when the magnets are apart, the magnetic flux will not let go the bar so soon, as there is a longer "jump" to the other magnet it will still try to use the bar to close the magnetic loop. So the grip on the bar will still remain quite much 1cm away.

So the total energy spent to lift the bar is the same in both cases. Therfor no OU.

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 09, 2009, 11:12:21 PM
I believe you are wrong on every point, but thanks again for the input.
Regards,
Butch

Because you have moved the force from being in line with the pull direction, to angular to the pull direction. Moving an object angular to a force does not require force to move. You can use lots of force to stretch a rubberband. But if you try to move your hand sideways, that sideways movement does not require force even if the rubberband is stretched to its maximum.

When the magnets are alone, the force is in line with the direction you want to pull apart. Therfor it is harder to pull them apart without the steelbars. But pulling the steel bars away from the magnets is hard. That simple. ;)

br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 11:16:22 PM
Vidar, is there no boundary to your ignorance? Are all the experiments that Butch has shown just a white screen to you? It's experimentally and software wise proven that this concept works. But maybe you want to become the employ of the month at your disinfo company.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 11:41:17 PM
Butch here's the double torque version.

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/exvid55V2.avi

Edit: A few seconds after I made this post I realised this gives exactly the same torque because they both move relatively away from each other now so the torque gets divided by two. Unless I'm mistaken.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 09, 2009, 11:47:27 PM
Vidar, is there no boundary to your ignorance? Are all the experiments that Butch has shown just a white screen to you? It's experimentally and software wise proven that this concept works. But maybe you want to become the employ of the month at your disinfo company.
No @broli. Pleas don't do this to me. I dissagree a statement here. What's the crime?

I agree the magnets, when together, will have a greater grip on the steel bar when the bar is close enough - ofcourse they have, but you have to look at what is happening between that point and beyond. Then you can start to look at the forces times distance - ENERGY. As an experiment, in your simulation if you like, take 1mm increments and look at the forces between the bar and the magnets in every step out to, let say 10cm, when the magnets are together.
You just take force times distance for each step, and add every 100 results up at the end. Do the same calculation when the magnets are apart. Add them up, and substract it from the previous result.
Now you can see what difference in ENERGY is required to move the steel bar away from the magnets. It is these kind of results which is interesting in order to determind OU or not. Forces alone can't determind anything useful unless you include at which distance the force is measured. I believe you will understand this - you are not just anybody, I have understood.

br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 11:57:19 PM
Maybe you missed the point that slamming the steel bars onto the magnet is energy GAIN. This is also what butch said and what you can see in the concept video. On the top you see two magnet in repulsion. Their job is to cancel out this force.

1) Bars are open.
2) Magnets move together.
3) Bars get closed.
   1) Energy gained from bars attraction to magnet.
   2) Energy lost from repulsion of cancellation magnets fixed to these bars.
   3) End result = no energy needed to push bars together. Theoretically you could blow on them some wind to move them together.
4) Magnets now move apart VERY easily like proven experimentally.
5) Bars get opened.
   1) Now we have the stored energy in the repulsing cancellation magnets + energy from bars attraction main magnets.
   2) But force from repulsion now is far superior because magnets have moved apart and as experimentally shown bars are held by weaker force
   3) End result = bars will instantaneously and spontaneously open if allowed.
6) Process now repeats.

Vidar, I am very certain that you still will deny it after this but at least this shows I'm a nice guy right?
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 09, 2009, 11:58:58 PM
Butch here's the double torque version.

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/exvid55V2.avi

Edit: A few seconds after I made this post I realised this gives exactly the same torque because they both move relatively away from each other now so the torque gets divided by two. Unless I'm mistaken.
It is a very nice concept you have animated here. The counterforce you placed on top there can be useful I hope. I'm still sceptic, but I will take this animation into a deep analysis, simulate it in FEMM, and see how much energy is required to move the steelbars back and forth etc., and see what is happening.

Vidar.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 10, 2009, 12:05:31 AM
Maybe you missed the point that slamming the steel bars onto the magnet is energy GAIN. This is also what butch said and what you can see in the concept video. On the top you see two magnet in repulsion. Their job is to cancel out this force.

1) Bars are open.
2) Magnets move together.
3) Bars get closed.
   1) Energy gained from bars attraction to magnet.
   2) Energy lost from repulsion of cancellation magnets fixed to these bars.
   3) End result = no energy needed to push bars together. Theoretically you could blow on them some wind to move them together.
4) Magnets now move apart VERY easily like proven experimentally.
5) Bars get opened.
   1) Now we have the stored energy in the repulsing cancellation magnets + energy from bars attraction main magnets.
   2) But force from repulsion now is far superior because magnets have moved apart and as experimentally shown bars are held by weaker force
   3) End result = bars will instantaneously and spontaneously open if allowed.
6) Process now repeats.

Vidar, I am very certain that you still will deny it after this but at least this shows I'm a nice guy right?
You are an a$$-hole some times, but I can't deny I like your ideas - even if i dissagree in most of them. I'm sure you are a nice guy deeply inside ;)

Going to bed now. It's late. Good night.

Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 10, 2009, 01:38:07 AM
Quite cheap and the perfect amount. 2 for main action + 2 for cancellation action.: http://www.emovendo.net/magnet/1x-1x-1-cubes.html

I'm by no means a handy man. But let's see what can be needed.

1) Flywheel of modest mass.
2) Piston mechanism attached to this flywheel.
3) Rail allowing piston to reciprocate.
4) Some steel or magnetic ceramic bars.
5) Linear mechanism attached to these bars.
6) Some other miscellaneous stuff.

Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 10, 2009, 10:56:10 AM
I have simulated this idea a little bit, but haven't calculated the energies going around in this setup.

What I found is this:

1. When the round magnets are together and the bars are fully separated, the counter-magnets on the bars provide a repelling force that is greater than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

2. When the round magnets are apart, and the bars are fully separated, the counter-magnets on the bars provides a repelling force that is less than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

3. When the round magnets are apart, and the bars are at its closest, the counter-magnets on the bars provides a repelling force that is greater than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

4. When the round magnets are together, and the bars are at its closest, the counter-magnets on the bars provides a repelling force that is less than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

So there is an unlinearity in how the round magnets are affecting the bars when they are apart or together.

What I can tell is that this unlinearity is counterforcing the system. In how great manner, I cannot say at the moment, as I havent done calculations from many samples in the positions between these four basic positions. Because if we only focus on these four positions, the motor will run. The question is how the force times distance is providing to the system in all positions between the basic four.

I'm going out, playing with my kids now. So I will take the time to do some simulations in the evening - if my wife allows me to ;D

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 10, 2009, 12:27:19 PM
Vidar your experiment has proven that it's critical that one should tune the strength of the repelling magnets by bring the magnets together and closing the bars on them. Then you should adjust the repulsion force in such a way that it just takes your pinky finger to open up the bars. This is best done by putting some screw system that allows you to adjust the position of these repelling magnets easily.

It's best to start out with strong repulsing magnets and then adjust them. Rather than have weak magnets that even stuck all the way together are not enough to cancel the attraction of the main magnets to the bars.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 10, 2009, 02:49:49 PM
Vidar your experiment has proven that it's critical that one should tune the strength of the repelling magnets by bring the magnets together and closing the bars on them. Then you should adjust the repulsion force in such a way that it just takes your pinky finger to open up the bars. This is best done by putting some screw system that allows you to adjust the position of these repelling magnets easily.

It's best to start out with strong repulsing magnets and then adjust them. Rather than have weak magnets that even stuck all the way together are not enough to cancel the attraction of the main magnets to the bars.
Yes, it can be tuned. The barmagnets are separated when the round magnets are apart, so there must be a repelling counterforce that is suitable from that basis, or should the repelling force be based on when the round magnets are together? what do you think @broli?
 If we can manage to configure it in a way that the repelling counterforce balance the attraction force at any distance between the bars, we can have a equalizing counterforce.

So what is happening when the round magnets slams together - when the bars are still apart?
Then the round magnets does not spread the magnetic fields so far out anymore that they affect the bars with the same force as when they was apart. So the repelling forces between the bars will then relatively increase, making it harder for the bars from going together to complete the loop. Making the counterforce based on when the round magnets are together, this repelling force will be even greater, and in a greater manner counterforce the system. Hopefully that counterforce will be relatively reduced enough when the barmagnets are suppose to go together when the round magnets has slammed together.

There is also another thing. When the bars is present, the attraction force between the round magnets are not so high, even if the bars are separated. That means the round magnets will not slam into eachother with the same brutal force as they do without the bars present. This is just an additional weakness that "helps" the system to halt.

I get more and more confused the more I think of how the forces and mechanisms works together. So I will now make a model in FEMM to see what is happening. Magnets are hard to fool - that is for sure. So we'll see.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 10, 2009, 03:57:34 PM
or should the repelling force be based on when the round magnets are together? what do you think @broli?

Yes! The rest of your post is over complicating things for nothing.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 10, 2009, 07:02:31 PM
Yes! The rest of your post is over complicating things for nothing.
Now i have done some simple simulations.

I have simulated with 20 x 4 x 4cm iron bars. 2x2x4cm slide-magnets, and 5x5x4cm counterforce-magnets. I have use 4cm as depth in FEMM - depth must be constant for all magnets and parts simulated.

When the bars are closest, and the slide-magnets are closest, I have a counterforce-magnet force at 0,3N - the closest to zero i got unless i want to use 1 week to tune it perfectly.
The attraction force between the slide-magnets are now 52N.

When I move the slide-magnets 6 + 6 cm apart, and still have the bars closed, the repelling force between the slide-magnets and the bars are now -65N, which means they are attracting with 65N force. I think this has to do with the influence between the slide-magnets and the counterforce-magnets.

So then I take apart the bars 3cm away in both directions while the slide-magnets are still apart. Now the repelling force between the bars are 83N, an increased repelling force of 148N. There is no attraction between the slide-magnets (!!) - well it is somthing like 0.01N or so.

So then I push the slide-magnets together, while the bars are still apart. The repelling force between the bars do now increased from 83N to 104N. The attraction between the slide-magnets are at closest about 400N, an increase of 148N.

Something tells me that the net force in the system will be the force difference between the bars and between the slide-magnets. 148N - 148N = 0.

This is not an opinion, it is just results from a simulation. So please do not attack me personally ;D

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 10, 2009, 07:20:38 PM
Now i have done some simple simulations.

I have simulated with 20 x 4 x 4cm iron bars. 2x2x4cm slide-magnets, and 5x5x4cm counterforce-magnets. I have use 4cm as depth in FEMM - depth must be constant for all magnets and parts simulated.

When the bars are closest, and the slide-magnets are closest, I have a counterforce-magnet force at 0,3N - the closest to zero i got unless i want to use 1 week to tune it perfectly.
The attraction force between the slide-magnets are now 52N.

When I move the slide-magnets 6 + 6 cm apart, and still have the bars closed, the repelling force between the slide-magnets and the bars are now -65N, which means they are attracting with 65N force. I think this has to do with the influence between the slide-magnets and the counterforce-magnets.

So then I take apart the bars 3cm away in both directions while the slide-magnets are still apart. Now the repelling force between the bars are 83N, an increased repelling force of 148N. There is no attraction between the slide-magnets (!!) - well it is somthing like 0.01N or so.

So then I push the slide-magnets together, while the bars are still apart. The repelling force between the bars do now increased from 83N to 104N. The attraction between the slide-magnets are at closest about 400N, an increase of 148N.

Something tells me that the net force in the system will be the force difference between the bars and between the slide-magnets. 148N - 148N = 0.

This is not an opinion, it is just results from a simulation. So please do not attack me personally ;D

Vidar

Make pictures your text is making things confusing. But Vidar did you miss the whole point of this thread, namely the experiment? Magnets attract with way bigger force without bars, with bars he can use his little finger.

You are a very sneaky snake. You pretend to show interest in something and "help out" but you really are just trying to derail the whole thing.

Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 10, 2009, 07:51:40 PM
Make pictures your text is making things confusing. But Vidar did you miss the whole point of this thread, namely the experiment? Magnets attract with way bigger force without bars, with bars he can use his little finger.

You are a very sneaky snake. You pretend to show interest in something and "help out" but you really are just trying to derail the whole thing.


Yes, I am Satan. I will preach theory that is all based on a frogs brain. I am the most stupid, and least visionary person in the world. I am a member of overunity.com only to annoy you and your claims - which is not even simulated. I have at least done that.

What Butch experiments with, does not automaticly show the whole picture. All positions must be tested and measured. That is for sure more easy in a simulation.

So look at my posts as a challenge to prove the opposite - it is not personally.

Vidar.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: chrisC on April 10, 2009, 08:01:24 PM
Now i have done some simple simulations.

I have simulated with 20 x 4 x 4cm iron bars. 2x2x4cm slide-magnets, and 5x5x4cm counterforce-magnets. I have use 4cm as depth in FEMM - depth must be constant for all magnets and parts simulated.

When the bars are closest, and the slide-magnets are closest, I have a counterforce-magnet force at 0,3N - the closest to zero i got unless i want to use 1 week to tune it perfectly.
The attraction force between the slide-magnets are now 52N.

When I move the slide-magnets 6 + 6 cm apart, and still have the bars closed, the repelling force between the slide-magnets and the bars are now -65N, which means they are attracting with 65N force. I think this has to do with the influence between the slide-magnets and the counterforce-magnets.

So then I take apart the bars 3cm away in both directions while the slide-magnets are still apart. Now the repelling force between the bars are 83N, an increased repelling force of 148N. There is no attraction between the slide-magnets (!!) - well it is somthing like 0.01N or so.

So then I push the slide-magnets together, while the bars are still apart. The repelling force between the bars do now increased from 83N to 104N. The attraction between the slide-magnets are at closest about 400N, an increase of 148N.

Something tells me that the net force in the system will be the force difference between the bars and between the slide-magnets. 148N - 148N = 0.

This is not an opinion, it is just results from a simulation. So please do not attack me personally ;D

Vidar

Hi Vidar:

Thank you for doing the simulation. For those without the benefit of the simulation software, can you please draw some simple diagrams and reference your findings so this can be better understood? It's a interesting subject and doesn't seemed so difficult to experimentally prove. What Butch showed should ideally be constructed viz Broli's gif simulation?

cheers
chrisC
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 10, 2009, 08:57:33 PM
Regarding my previous post with measurements, in the order as written in my previous post. Also the FEMM simulation is attached.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 10, 2009, 09:12:12 PM
Why do you even have the repelling magnets in your simulation. These are an external source and should not interact with the main magnets at all to exclude bullshit talk. And only have one moving magnet. Geez I have to do everything myself don't I?
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 10, 2009, 09:31:33 PM
Broli,
Can you email me direct, I want to ask a favor of you.
Butch
lafontegroup@charter.net
Title: New Youtube address dedicated to LaFonte Group Magnet Motor 1
Post by: Butch LaFonte on April 10, 2009, 09:43:13 PM
This link will only have information on one motor basic operating principle only.
http://www.youtube.com/user/LaFonteMagnetMotor1
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 10, 2009, 10:45:37 PM
Why do you even have the repelling magnets in your simulation. These are an external source and should not interact with the main magnets at all to exclude bullshit talk. And only have one moving magnet. Geez I have to do everything myself don't I?
Have to do everything yourself? Have you actually done ANYTHING AT ALL - regarding simulations, experiments, testresults, simulation results? Don't think so.
I at least try to simulate things, and work with things in real life, and they are ran over like a train by you every time a result is a threat. Then you like to think you are above me and other members here, and point fingers to me and those who question or test your ideas.

Behave, and get over yourself ;) Magnet motors will never work, and I ofcourse will try to tell you why.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 10, 2009, 11:26:52 PM
Magnet motors will never work

At least you let the cat out of the bag. A statement like this on this forum should be banable. You have nothing left to look for here than spreading your negativity and trying to sabotage others.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: spinner on April 10, 2009, 11:51:46 PM
At least you let the cat out of the bag. A statement like this on this forum should be banable. You have nothing left to look for here than spreading your negativity and trying to sabotage others.

Hey, Broli!
What if you would prove some of your statements made here? (instead of suggesting for banning people who think differently?)
Is this forum just a "delusional's club"? 


Think about this magnetic concept (and all the energy transactions in the cycle). Just count all the in's and out's...

Maybe you can make a working, proof of a concept device? Butch and his group would certainly need some help.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Lilhawk on April 11, 2009, 01:42:46 AM
@Broli

your piston design got me thinking and i found a flaw in its application. I have attach a picture showing that at the max magnetic attraction your connecting rod is at 12 o'clock which adds very little
energy to the crank.  One idea that I thought might help with this is a sliding connecting rod. This will allow max attraction to happen at 2 o'clock and allow the crank to go through to 10 o'clock ( counter clockwise rotation- don't ask :-[ ) . This will also give you about 90-120 degrees of crank rotation time to get the flux bars in place before the connecting rod starts to  pull at 10 o'clock

A= shows max torque at 2:00

B= shows sliding connecting rod at max extension at 12:00


Now I do know that this does not address the whole bar attaction equalization part. Low-Q has made this point.
He has posted data that is most useful and also got me thinking about that part. I will be asking him for a little more data shortly ...hopefully he can help.

The clock positions are approximate and probably would change for an actual build

Lil'hawk
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 10:56:55 AM
@Broli

your piston design got me thinking and i found a flaw in its application. I have attach a picture showing that at the max magnetic attraction your connecting rod is at 12 o'clock which adds very little
energy to the crank.  One idea that I thought might help with this is a sliding connecting rod. This will allow max attraction to happen at 2 o'clock and allow the crank to go through to 10 o'clock ( counter clockwise rotation- don't ask :-[ ) . This will also give you about 90-120 degrees of crank rotation time to get the flux bars in place before the connecting rod starts to  pull at 10 o'clock

A= shows max torque at 2:00

B= shows sliding connecting rod at max extension at 12:00


Now I do know that this does not address the whole bar attaction equalization part. Low-Q has made this point.
He has posted data that is most useful and also got me thinking about that part. I will be asking him for a little more data shortly ...hopefully he can help.

The clock positions are approximate and probably would change for an actual build

Lil'hawk
Be careful with questioning @brolis ideas. He is a very sensitive man when it comes to findings that is somewhat threatening his ideas.

Anyway. You can look at magnetism as POTENTIAL energy. This is what both @broli, and his magnetmotor fellows forget totally. As long this potential energy doesn't change (In other words, the magnetic "charge" doesn't change), no work will be done. It is magnetism that was applied to the magnets, and magnetism has also to disappear in order to take this energy back. But as long the magnetism isn't changing, no work can be done.

This is just like believing putting a heavy object upon a table, and expect that this potential energy will do work and simultaneously keep a constant hight of the object. As you and others sure understand, this is impossible, simply because no change in potential energy is namely conservative, and can therfor not do work.

Using magnets in a setup that one believe will do work, looks promising because the system is too complex for everyone to see the whole picture, and by that will not understand why the system doesn't work when it is built.

But telling storys like this to the believers out there is like talking to the wall. It is usless, because then they believe we are payed by the goverment to hide secrets or something. So they will still spend the rest of their lifes trying to trick nature - and fail over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 11:11:19 AM
At least you let the cat out of the bag. A statement like this on this forum should be banable. You have nothing left to look for here than spreading your negativity and trying to sabotage others.
Let me put it this way:
If you are going to try building a magnetmotor, I would strongly advice you not to, but rather look into other directions, other alternatives.
It will not benifit anything but costing you a lot of painfull time and money.

Look at my previous post here, and you will understand what magnets do to a system. I am here to help you lost guys out of this bottomless hole. But ofcourse, it is hard to be told that all your work and attempts, and spent money is for nothing when it comes to magnet motors. I understand your anger towards me, which is actually your problem. You take this personally, and instead of trying to prove me wrong, you attack me personally - that is even a better reason for YOU to be banned of this forum. Just think this over before you do something more stupid towards me.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: broli on April 11, 2009, 11:16:01 AM
Low-Q we already established you are an idiot so why are you still here. You don't have to lecture the crap my professor taught me again. There are 100's of textbooks that do that already.

Just don't post here. That's not too much asked.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 01:31:44 PM
Low-Q we already established you are an idiot so why are you still here. You don't have to lecture the crap my professor taught me again. There are 100's of textbooks that do that already.

Just don't post here. That's not too much asked.
"We" or you alone?

I will keep on posting facts here as long people believe they can get energy out of permanentmagnets. That is my right to do so, but it is also your right to post ideas that will never work in the very same forum.
No matter how hard you hate me, no matter how silent I get in this thread, you will never be able to make a working magnet motor. Magnets are conservative as long they does not change magnetic properties. A permanent magnet, as in PERMANENT, is only containing potential energy that is not changed. As long this potential isn't changed, no work has been carried out. That is why we include an electric circuit that is altering this potential energy in order to carry out work. Without something lifting a weight to another hight, no work has been carried out, so to speak.
So don't think you can silence me, but try to prove me wrong instead. If not, you can find something else to discuss. You know I'm right, but you have just gone too far to realize your defeat.

How hard is it to understand these very basic physics? Your "professor"? Who is that? Your cat?
Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Tempest on April 11, 2009, 02:25:32 PM
@broil 
From the positive posts from you, it appears that you are a very smart person. Why do you lower yourself by insulting people? Yes I know that negativity get to you sometime but I think you’re a better person then that.

@ Low Q
Yes everyone has been taught that magnets have potential energy, just like a weight lifted to a height. But what said weight (maybe a cement brick) can’t do is hold it self up to that height like a magnet can. What is the force that holds a magnet to the bottom of a metal beam? Why is it that a cobalt magnet is not radioactive when cobalt is? Where did the radiation go? Is it being used by the structure of the molecules to product the magnetism? Too many questions about magnets to just say “It a conservative force, end of discussion” I would hope that this forum is about developing ideas, not to tell people that they are wrong. We don’t need your enlightenment. It’s just like watching TV if you don’t like what is on the channel you are watching then you change the channel. Or do you never change the channel. Then write to the TV station and tell them that they are not broadcasting the right show. Sorry, I don’t know everything about magnets and either do you. Wisdom is knowing that you don't know.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 03:48:28 PM
@broil 
From the positive posts from you, it appears that you are a very smart person. Why do you lower yourself by insulting people? Yes I know that negativity get to you sometime but I think you’re a better person then that.

@ Low Q
Yes everyone has been taught that magnets have potential energy, just like a weight lifted to a height. But what said weight (maybe a cement brick) can’t do is hold it self up to that height like a magnet can. What is the force that holds a magnet to the bottom of a metal beam? Why is it that a cobalt magnet is not radioactive when cobalt is? Where did the radiation go? Is it being used by the structure of the molecules to product the magnetism? Too many questions about magnets to just say “It a conservative force, end of discussion” I would hope that this forum is about developing ideas, not to tell people that they are wrong. We don’t need your enlightenment. It’s just like watching TV if you don’t like what is on the channel you are watching then you change the channel. Or do you never change the channel. Then write to the TV station and tell them that they are not broadcasting the right show. Sorry, I don’t know everything about magnets and either do you. Wisdom is knowing that you don't know.

There is many questions about magnets for those who don't know much about them. What most of us know is that they can attract or repell other objects. This is what we call magnetic force.
This force is determind by the magnetic flux, and how much another object is affected by magnetism. If we know this, the basic thing we talk about is forces, and how the force is affected by a materials properties. So then we know that a magnet is supplying forces which is determind by its magnetic properties, and the objects around it.

So what is so mysterious with a levitating mass due to magnetism? The brick isnt magnetic, and if it was, it could levitate in one condition: The magnetic direction must be aligned to counterforce gravity. So what happen with the magnetic brick if aligned the opposite? You will make the brick twice as heavy than its mass should promise. In sum there is no change in mass and the weight. So no change in mass, potential energy, or work is carried out.

We also know that the magnetic force is constant if the magnet remain its magnetic properties permanently (cobalt or not), and all other objects around it remain the same properties. If this is fulfiled, there will never be any change in the properties and the magnetism. No change means no energy.

All magnetic forces in a system will act and counteract equally as long there isnt any change in the properties within the system. These properties can however be changed by sypplying energy externally into the system. If we don't do that, nothing will ever happen. - We can sit there and wait till the brick do work while it remains in the same position.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2009, 04:19:27 PM
Q
So what is happening here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChGB3delzoA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fmy_videos_edit2&feature=player_embedded

Chet
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Tempest on April 11, 2009, 05:00:09 PM
OK Low Q
What molecular, atomic, quantum or any other mechanism holds the radiation in, in a cobalt magnet?
Or is it consumed to create the magnetic field?
Can you alter the effect by external force?
Do you know what makes a magnet a magnet?
Do you know the precise mechanism that products the magnetic fields or are you just repeating what you learned in school?
Please enlighten with your vast knowledge in this area.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Ergo on April 11, 2009, 05:06:19 PM
There is nothing going on using tri-gates. It's been proved a dozens of times.
As you can clearly see in the movie it is slowing down until it stops.
There is not even the slightest bit of excess energy left to keep it going.
And the more gates you keep adding the worse it gets.
If you add enough gates to form a perfect circular tri-gate setup you will find your
rotor not being able to rotate at all. It's been tried over and over. No gain. Period.

Q
So what is happening here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChGB3delzoA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fmy_videos_edit2&feature=player_embedded

Chet
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: ramset on April 11, 2009, 05:15:45 PM
Ergo

Period, is a very big word

This trigate with the heavy iron plate centrifugal force Etc...[
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChGB3delzoA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fmy_videos_edit2&feature=player_embedded

Chet

My crystal ball is in the shop right now [time will tell]
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 09:33:07 PM
Q
So what is happening here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChGB3delzoA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fmy_videos_edit2&feature=player_embedded

Chet
A heavy wheel which is slowing down. That is what is happening. Look at the speed at the very beginning, and jump directly to the end of the video. It clearly slows down. at least 10 -15% slower after one minute.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: tournamentdan on April 11, 2009, 09:53:13 PM
I saw the video that you did with the balance affect with the 25 pound pipe. I stopped there and did not watch any other because your theory that the two magnets are stronger together than apart is wrong. I am sorry to say but the reason that they seem stronger is because the magnetic poles for the rectangle magnets are in the center. The farther away from the pole the weaker the attraction.
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Low-Q on April 11, 2009, 10:04:17 PM
OK Low Q
What molecular, atomic, quantum or any other mechanism holds the radiation in, in a cobalt magnet?
Or is it consumed to create the magnetic field?
Can you alter the effect by external force?
Do you know what makes a magnet a magnet?
Do you know the precise mechanism that products the magnetic fields or are you just repeating what you learned in school?
Please enlighten with your vast knowledge in this area.

The radioactive cobalt isotop 60 isn't used in magnets, and does not exist in nature due to the very short half life of only 5 -6 years or so. It is manufactured synthetic for industrial purpose - not for magnets. It is the non radioactive and a stable isotop of cobalt you use in magnetic alloys.

A magnet is a potential charge of current, like as any other potential charges found as voltage in electric capacitors, or as mass upon a table.
The atoms in a magnet are oriented in a way that makes the electrons spin more or less in the same direction - therfor the magnetic field. As long these atoms stays in the same order, no change in potential energy is carried out, so no work can be done.
You can however temporary change the magnetic flux and direction by introducing another magnetic material, but that change will follow the material and eachother as it is passing by, so no net change in the forces are present in a closed loop.

Vidar
Title: Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
Post by: Ergo on April 12, 2009, 09:15:47 AM
Ergo, Period, is a very big word
In this case it is justified.

My crystal ball is in the shop right now [time will tell]
Time will be telling forever when it comes to tri-gates.

Just have another look at the poor motion in the video.
There is no torque what-so-ever to speak of. It's barely passing the gates.
Slightest shaft load from a connected generator will stop it.
Hell yeah....even the lite drag from a unloaded generator will immediately stop it.