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Author Topic: Please, Please, look at this video!  (Read 15142 times)

Offline broli

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2009, 11:02:13 PM »
Butch you will learn that Vidar on this forum can be a thorn in your eye.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2009, 11:02:13 PM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Proof balance systems supports overunity at this point in project
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2009, 11:02:25 PM »
See this new video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LOkMsh9dqk
You forget that the magnetic field is stronger within a shorter range when the magnets are together. Move the bar 1cm (1cm is just an example) up away from the magnets when they are apart, and do the same when the magnets are together. When the magnets are together the magnetic flux affecting the bar will dissappear sooner, as there is a shorter distance between the magnets and the magnetic flux will therfor sooner jump over to its neighbour instead of having a grip on the bar when the bar moves away.
However, when the magnets are apart, the magnetic flux will not let go the bar so soon, as there is a longer "jump" to the other magnet it will still try to use the bar to close the magnetic loop. So the grip on the bar will still remain quite much 1cm away.

So the total energy spent to lift the bar is the same in both cases. Therfor no OU.

Br.

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2009, 11:12:21 PM »
I believe you are wrong on every point, but thanks again for the input.
Regards,
Butch

Because you have moved the force from being in line with the pull direction, to angular to the pull direction. Moving an object angular to a force does not require force to move. You can use lots of force to stretch a rubberband. But if you try to move your hand sideways, that sideways movement does not require force even if the rubberband is stretched to its maximum.

When the magnets are alone, the force is in line with the direction you want to pull apart. Therfor it is harder to pull them apart without the steelbars. But pulling the steel bars away from the magnets is hard. That simple. ;)

br.

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2009, 11:12:21 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2009, 11:16:22 PM »
Vidar, is there no boundary to your ignorance? Are all the experiments that Butch has shown just a white screen to you? It's experimentally and software wise proven that this concept works. But maybe you want to become the employ of the month at your disinfo company.

Offline broli

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2009, 11:41:17 PM »
Butch here's the double torque version.

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/exvid55V2.avi

Edit: A few seconds after I made this post I realised this gives exactly the same torque because they both move relatively away from each other now so the torque gets divided by two. Unless I'm mistaken.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2009, 11:41:17 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2009, 11:47:27 PM »
Vidar, is there no boundary to your ignorance? Are all the experiments that Butch has shown just a white screen to you? It's experimentally and software wise proven that this concept works. But maybe you want to become the employ of the month at your disinfo company.
No @broli. Pleas don't do this to me. I dissagree a statement here. What's the crime?

I agree the magnets, when together, will have a greater grip on the steel bar when the bar is close enough - ofcourse they have, but you have to look at what is happening between that point and beyond. Then you can start to look at the forces times distance - ENERGY. As an experiment, in your simulation if you like, take 1mm increments and look at the forces between the bar and the magnets in every step out to, let say 10cm, when the magnets are together.
You just take force times distance for each step, and add every 100 results up at the end. Do the same calculation when the magnets are apart. Add them up, and substract it from the previous result.
Now you can see what difference in ENERGY is required to move the steel bar away from the magnets. It is these kind of results which is interesting in order to determind OU or not. Forces alone can't determind anything useful unless you include at which distance the force is measured. I believe you will understand this - you are not just anybody, I have understood.

br.

Vidar

Offline broli

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2009, 11:57:19 PM »
Maybe you missed the point that slamming the steel bars onto the magnet is energy GAIN. This is also what butch said and what you can see in the concept video. On the top you see two magnet in repulsion. Their job is to cancel out this force.

1) Bars are open.
2) Magnets move together.
3) Bars get closed.
   1) Energy gained from bars attraction to magnet.
   2) Energy lost from repulsion of cancellation magnets fixed to these bars.
   3) End result = no energy needed to push bars together. Theoretically you could blow on them some wind to move them together.
4) Magnets now move apart VERY easily like proven experimentally.
5) Bars get opened.
   1) Now we have the stored energy in the repulsing cancellation magnets + energy from bars attraction main magnets.
   2) But force from repulsion now is far superior because magnets have moved apart and as experimentally shown bars are held by weaker force
   3) End result = bars will instantaneously and spontaneously open if allowed.
6) Process now repeats.

Vidar, I am very certain that you still will deny it after this but at least this shows I'm a nice guy right?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2009, 11:57:19 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2009, 11:58:58 PM »
Butch here's the double torque version.

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/exvid55V2.avi

Edit: A few seconds after I made this post I realised this gives exactly the same torque because they both move relatively away from each other now so the torque gets divided by two. Unless I'm mistaken.
It is a very nice concept you have animated here. The counterforce you placed on top there can be useful I hope. I'm still sceptic, but I will take this animation into a deep analysis, simulate it in FEMM, and see how much energy is required to move the steelbars back and forth etc., and see what is happening.

Vidar.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2009, 12:05:31 AM »
Maybe you missed the point that slamming the steel bars onto the magnet is energy GAIN. This is also what butch said and what you can see in the concept video. On the top you see two magnet in repulsion. Their job is to cancel out this force.

1) Bars are open.
2) Magnets move together.
3) Bars get closed.
   1) Energy gained from bars attraction to magnet.
   2) Energy lost from repulsion of cancellation magnets fixed to these bars.
   3) End result = no energy needed to push bars together. Theoretically you could blow on them some wind to move them together.
4) Magnets now move apart VERY easily like proven experimentally.
5) Bars get opened.
   1) Now we have the stored energy in the repulsing cancellation magnets + energy from bars attraction main magnets.
   2) But force from repulsion now is far superior because magnets have moved apart and as experimentally shown bars are held by weaker force
   3) End result = bars will instantaneously and spontaneously open if allowed.
6) Process now repeats.

Vidar, I am very certain that you still will deny it after this but at least this shows I'm a nice guy right?
You are an a$$-hole some times, but I can't deny I like your ideas - even if i dissagree in most of them. I'm sure you are a nice guy deeply inside ;)

Going to bed now. It's late. Good night.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2009, 12:05:31 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2009, 01:38:07 AM »
Quite cheap and the perfect amount. 2 for main action + 2 for cancellation action.: http://www.emovendo.net/magnet/1x-1x-1-cubes.html

I'm by no means a handy man. But let's see what can be needed.

1) Flywheel of modest mass.
2) Piston mechanism attached to this flywheel.
3) Rail allowing piston to reciprocate.
4) Some steel or magnetic ceramic bars.
5) Linear mechanism attached to these bars.
6) Some other miscellaneous stuff.


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2009, 10:56:10 AM »
I have simulated this idea a little bit, but haven't calculated the energies going around in this setup.

What I found is this:

1. When the round magnets are together and the bars are fully separated, the counter-magnets on the bars provide a repelling force that is greater than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

2. When the round magnets are apart, and the bars are fully separated, the counter-magnets on the bars provides a repelling force that is less than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

3. When the round magnets are apart, and the bars are at its closest, the counter-magnets on the bars provides a repelling force that is greater than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

4. When the round magnets are together, and the bars are at its closest, the counter-magnets on the bars provides a repelling force that is less than the attraction between the round magnets and the bars.

So there is an unlinearity in how the round magnets are affecting the bars when they are apart or together.

What I can tell is that this unlinearity is counterforcing the system. In how great manner, I cannot say at the moment, as I havent done calculations from many samples in the positions between these four basic positions. Because if we only focus on these four positions, the motor will run. The question is how the force times distance is providing to the system in all positions between the basic four.

I'm going out, playing with my kids now. So I will take the time to do some simulations in the evening - if my wife allows me to ;D

Br.

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2009, 10:56:10 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2009, 12:27:19 PM »
Vidar your experiment has proven that it's critical that one should tune the strength of the repelling magnets by bring the magnets together and closing the bars on them. Then you should adjust the repulsion force in such a way that it just takes your pinky finger to open up the bars. This is best done by putting some screw system that allows you to adjust the position of these repelling magnets easily.

It's best to start out with strong repulsing magnets and then adjust them. Rather than have weak magnets that even stuck all the way together are not enough to cancel the attraction of the main magnets to the bars.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2009, 02:49:49 PM »
Vidar your experiment has proven that it's critical that one should tune the strength of the repelling magnets by bring the magnets together and closing the bars on them. Then you should adjust the repulsion force in such a way that it just takes your pinky finger to open up the bars. This is best done by putting some screw system that allows you to adjust the position of these repelling magnets easily.

It's best to start out with strong repulsing magnets and then adjust them. Rather than have weak magnets that even stuck all the way together are not enough to cancel the attraction of the main magnets to the bars.
Yes, it can be tuned. The barmagnets are separated when the round magnets are apart, so there must be a repelling counterforce that is suitable from that basis, or should the repelling force be based on when the round magnets are together? what do you think @broli?
 If we can manage to configure it in a way that the repelling counterforce balance the attraction force at any distance between the bars, we can have a equalizing counterforce.

So what is happening when the round magnets slams together - when the bars are still apart?
Then the round magnets does not spread the magnetic fields so far out anymore that they affect the bars with the same force as when they was apart. So the repelling forces between the bars will then relatively increase, making it harder for the bars from going together to complete the loop. Making the counterforce based on when the round magnets are together, this repelling force will be even greater, and in a greater manner counterforce the system. Hopefully that counterforce will be relatively reduced enough when the barmagnets are suppose to go together when the round magnets has slammed together.

There is also another thing. When the bars is present, the attraction force between the round magnets are not so high, even if the bars are separated. That means the round magnets will not slam into eachother with the same brutal force as they do without the bars present. This is just an additional weakness that "helps" the system to halt.

I get more and more confused the more I think of how the forces and mechanisms works together. So I will now make a model in FEMM to see what is happening. Magnets are hard to fool - that is for sure. So we'll see.

Vidar

Offline broli

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2009, 03:57:34 PM »
or should the repelling force be based on when the round magnets are together? what do you think @broli?

Yes! The rest of your post is over complicating things for nothing.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Please, Please, look at this video!
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2009, 07:02:31 PM »
Yes! The rest of your post is over complicating things for nothing.
Now i have done some simple simulations.

I have simulated with 20 x 4 x 4cm iron bars. 2x2x4cm slide-magnets, and 5x5x4cm counterforce-magnets. I have use 4cm as depth in FEMM - depth must be constant for all magnets and parts simulated.

When the bars are closest, and the slide-magnets are closest, I have a counterforce-magnet force at 0,3N - the closest to zero i got unless i want to use 1 week to tune it perfectly.
The attraction force between the slide-magnets are now 52N.

When I move the slide-magnets 6 + 6 cm apart, and still have the bars closed, the repelling force between the slide-magnets and the bars are now -65N, which means they are attracting with 65N force. I think this has to do with the influence between the slide-magnets and the counterforce-magnets.

So then I take apart the bars 3cm away in both directions while the slide-magnets are still apart. Now the repelling force between the bars are 83N, an increased repelling force of 148N. There is no attraction between the slide-magnets (!!) - well it is somthing like 0.01N or so.

So then I push the slide-magnets together, while the bars are still apart. The repelling force between the bars do now increased from 83N to 104N. The attraction between the slide-magnets are at closest about 400N, an increase of 148N.

Something tells me that the net force in the system will be the force difference between the bars and between the slide-magnets. 148N - 148N = 0.

This is not an opinion, it is just results from a simulation. So please do not attack me personally ;D

Vidar

 

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