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Wind energy => Wind energy generators => Topic started by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 04:25:18 AM

Title: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 04:25:18 AM
I will be building a wind turbine from plastic 55gal drums...

I need specifics:

how to wind the coils for 145lb n42 bar magnets to maximize power output

What type of fiberglass and how to hold the magnets in place while glassing to keep them from smacking together.

The spacing between each magnet is critical.

The number of magnets

The space between the stator and the rotor

Should the coils rotate or should the magnets rotate what is better?

There are so many combination help wanted!
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 06, 2009, 04:45:40 AM
Hi Infringer,

The link below will answer most of your questions:

http://www.otherpower.com/trips1.html (http://www.otherpower.com/trips1.html)

I used those tips in building my alternator and the only deviations I did was to make the stator in 2 sections (easily removable without having to take apart the magnet rotors) for ease of coils experimentation and using 12 (one per coil) rectifier bridges. If one rectifier blow, the alternator still works and you get about 33% increase in efficiency. The ideal ratio is for 3 coils 4 magnet sets for a lower "spin up speed". I used magnets that have a 87.6 lb of pull so I made a wooden template to hold them on the steel disk while the super glue dried and still got a few bleeders from snaps. Check your local autopart for the Locktite superglue, it comes in 3 viscosity and also in large format containers.

I used regular bodywork fiberglass sheets and resin.

Take care,

Michel

Edit: link to my Newman motor and alternator: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5287.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5287.0)
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 05:32:43 AM
Why must you use steel for the magnetic rotor why could you not glass the magnets right into the wood as they sit?

I am looking to have a 2ft magnetic rotor at the very least maybe even 32" rotor and my stator will have to match that or in pictures I have seen thus far be slightly smaller I wanna generate maximal power ...

I appreciate your help thus far but I guess I may be making things difficult but I don't care to use steel for a  magnetic rotor nor the stator I don't want any extra eddy currents from nothing just pure magnets anyhow I guess I will look more at otherpower as everyone keeps suggesting they seem to be advertisement and revenue based looking for cash cash cash ...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 06:03:16 AM
Bridge rectifiers where can I find some dependable rectifiers and the other electronics I need to convert the 3 phase to DC and what exactly do I need could you provide me with parts and links for the electronics obviously I will need a charge controller to disburse the power from the rectifiers into the batteries but I guess I want to do this cheaply but provide maximal power output ...

GREAT HELP

I just ask that you do not give up and tell me to go elsewhere for info we need the information available here for everyone to see no hopping site to site lets streamline here!
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 06:14:16 AM
here appears to be the wiring I guess phase wires will not really matter which number is which as long as you keep coil sets 1 2 and 3 together and hook it up accordingly but this seems to be a nice picture so far of the wiring required.

Other things to tackle are how to properly wind coils my guess is if you had 12 coils there would be 4 coils per phase to keep it a 3 phase setup. Just assumption here off common logic.

My other question is would you not be able to use 3 of these 4 prong bridge rectifiers to keep them cooler say one for each phase instead of how it is pictured or is it only possible to use two of these ?

Beautiful Newman replication to say the least as well!

Thanks in advance

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 06:32:33 AM
As far as the keeping the mags in place maybe if glue then glass or possibly use some screws along each side of the magnet or what about using magnetic shielding aluminum foil  or something IDK this does provide quite a risk to take on... there has got to be some way to assure that the magnets do not smack together they tend to bust when that happens at least from my expirence and being 145lbs of pull force it is a nice way to break a finger indeed... But I figure the stronger the magnet the better the power output good thing I did not go with them 300lb mags though the thought crossed my mind...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 06, 2009, 07:10:24 AM

Hi Infringer,

I am in no way an expert on alternator DIY but I'll try to answer a few of your questions.  ;D

Quote
Why must you use steel for the magnetic rotor why could you not glass the magnets right into the wood as they sit?

Placing a steel rotor behind your magnets, you get a more powerful magnetic flux between your facing N-S or S-N magnet poles. That I have checked with a Gauss meter. It helps to concentrate the flux between the steel plates and not all over the place.

Quote
Bridge rectifiers where can I find some dependable rectifiers and the other electronics I need to convert the 3 phase to DC and what exactly do I need could you provide me with parts and links for the electronics obviously I will need a charge controller to disburse the power from the rectifiers into the batteries but I guess I want to do this cheaply but provide maximal power output ...

In Canada, I get them from a reputable outlet,  http://digikey.ca/ (http://digikey.ca/) the USA site is http://www.digikey.com/ (http://www.digikey.com/) . You could get them from EBay but you may get those from China and you may get crap. The rating depends on the maximum amp output from your coils or phases. They are not very expensive so why take a chance. If your alternator will output say 12V 120 amps in 3 phases, put a safety margin of 50% and go for 3 60 amps for a 3 phases setup. But by the size you mention, I would go for a 24V setup and you have to consider that for your charge controller and inverters and it will also reduce your wire size gauge from the windmill to the controller..

I bought my charge controller from EBay and got a nice Xantrex C60 (60 amps) 12/24V with the LCD display for $171.00 delivered at my place, saved over $100.00. The 2 inverters also come from EBay and are rated at 1800 Watts and a max of 3500 Watts MSW (modified sine wave not true sine waves $$$$) for $51.00 and $71.00 plus ~$15.00 shipping (I have a US shipping address).

Quote
Other things to tackle are how to properly wind coils my guess is if you had 12 coils there would be 4 coils per phase to keep it a 3 phase setup.

Mine is a 12 coils 12 phases as I use one rectifier bridge per coil and can later hook them in series or parallel or series/parallel to work with 12V or 24V depending on the speed the alternator will operate. For 12 coils there would be 4 coils per phase to keep it a 3 phase setup. That is right.

Quote
My other question is would you not be able to use 3 of these 4 prong bridge rectifiers to keep them cooler say one for each phase instead of how it is pictured or is it only possible to use two of these ?

As I said above, one for each phase is better plus you have to mount them on heat sinks as they get hot and they don't get a break when the batteries are full as your charge controller will divert your output to a resistive load which can be a 12V car heater or more to disperse the energy.

Quote
Beautiful Newman replication to say the least as well!

Thanks.

I'll try to help as much as I can but read the 3 pages from the link above, they have done many and are well done.

Take care,

Michel





Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 06, 2009, 07:34:05 AM


Re Infringer,

If you go for a Savonius design, you can use a carbon fiber, fiberglass or wood rotor as the coils are around the rotor. Not sure what is the minimum spacing of the magnets/coils though.

All of the above still apply, iron behind the magnets will increase the strength of the flux and give you more inertia in fluctuating wind.

Take care,

Michel

P.S.: In the study of the Bedini window motor, we found that all North or all South facing the coils produce more output. So experiment before putting the glue... The iron behind the magnets will be of help but put a wood spacer between the magnets and iron before the final setup.

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 06, 2009, 07:41:29 AM

Re Infringer,

Wind your coils the bifilar way, 50% increase amp output for the same voltage.  ;D

Take care,

Michel

P.S.: Now you know as much as I do... LOL

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 07, 2009, 06:12:19 AM


Hi Infringer,

I checked the Savonius design and found this:

http://mb-soft.com/public/wind.html (http://mb-soft.com/public/wind.html)

What I Consider to be a Savonius Rotor!
Top View - Savonius (Drawing is a top view of a completed Savonius)

For these reasons, I tend to have a "lower-cost-approach" to wind-generated electricity! Specifically, there is one version of the Savonius rotor which is the ONLY one that I have ever built or used (maybe 15 or 20 of them over the years). When I refer to a Savonius Rotor, I therefore refer to ONLY the following: Get an old 55-gallon drum. Draw a line completely around it, to be able to saw it apart into two exactly identical half-drums (vertically). The two halves will then resemble two rocker baby cribs. I generally use a Sabre saw with a fine-toothed metal cutting blade, and it makes a LOT of noise!

The two halves are stood up (as though they were still actual drums) where their one cut edge is nearlly touching each other, but the two are facing opposite directions. You should see the INSIDE of one half drum and the OUTSIDE of the other, whichever side you look from. Then place a 36" length of 1x1x1/8 angle iron (or larger) on top of the two and across both. Drill some holes in the tops of the drum-halves and the angle, and use 1/4" bolts to securely attach the angle iron to the drum halves. I use lock washers to make sure the bolts will not loosen from vibration.

Flip it over and mount a second piece of angle iron on the other end of the drum-halves. THAT is pretty much it! How much did this cost? Well, I have always found drums for free, because a lot of people want to discard them. The angle iron and bolts might be around $4, so that is the total cost of the Savonius that I call a Savonius!

I generally drill a 9/16" hole through the very center of both the top and bottom angle piece. There can be merit in using slightly larger angle, as my holes drill away nearly the entire flange of the angle! But I then drive a length of 1" (or larger) water pipe into the ground, several feet. On the top, I get a pipe reducer down to 1/2" and I add a short piece of 1/2" water pipe, maybe a foot. I then get a 4 foot length of 1/2" solid steel rod. I put that rod into the 1/2" pipe at least 9 inches, and drill a small hole through the pipe and rod to secure it. Two might be better.

There is now the larger water pipe sticking up maybe 10 feet above the ground, with the 1/2" rod sticking about 3 feet above that. I then raise the Savonius assembly above it and lower the holes in the angles down over the vertical rod. I usually find salvage water pipe to drive into the ground, so this tower assembly often costs only around $5. The entire project therefore often costs around $10 total!

Yes, buying actual bearings can make sense, but this works fairly well as described, although it sometimes squeals due to metal friction! Given that the 55-gallon drum will likely only last two or three years before it rusts out, I found that my non-bearings never caused any of the angle irons to break from wear.

POINT: Since this entire assembly only cost me about $10, I never really needed massive amounts of electricity before it paid for itself! Since virtually NO other wind-generated electricity system has ever actually paid for its own cost, right there is a real advantage, the way I see it!

POINT: Since this Savonius and tower is so simple, easy, quick, and dirt-cheap to make, I tended to save up all the old barrels I could find, and convert them all into Savonius Rotors! Yes, there is a serious UGLINESS factor! (I did not have any close neighbors in any of three different locations I made them.)

Savonius We show another drawing here which shows both the benefit of a Savonius as well as its greatest disadvantage! The two lower arrows show the wind that is caught INSIDE the concave half of the Savonius, which then forces it to rotate around its central (vertical) shaft. This shows why it has such great torque, even at very low wind speeds.

The upper two arrows show the disadvantage. The oncoming wind hits the convex half of the Savonuis as well, and only its convex shape is what causes the air to be deflected sideways around it. If you think about it, the wind's effect on the two halves of the Savonius is not that different, same speed, same area, the only difference being the concave and convex shapes presented to the oncoming air. You probably see why a Savonius only has around 13% overall efficiency; much of the power that might be captured has to get used up pushing the convex half!

We will see below that such Savonius Rotors, combined with standard (used) GM car alternators, and the common 10 to 11 mph wind in the Midwest, can REALISTICALLY create maybe 7 watts (24 hours every day), then ten of these very cheap devices can produce 70 watts, or almost two kilowatt-hours per day. THAT is a useful amount of electricity! As long as you have lots of batteries to store it!


Not very efficient...

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 07, 2009, 09:09:05 PM
Infringer-
  I see you started another thread, I will be glad to help you but the questions I asked in the prior thread still apply..
What size mags, how many, and what voltage battery bank?
  If you insist on the plastic barrel vawt then you are pretty much limiting yourself to 12 volts and about a 12" dia.
set of rotors and as Michelinho told you, you MUST put metal behind your mags to get any decent power at all. Preferably metal as
thick as your magnets are- there should be no magnetism available on the opposite side of the rotor thickness.
  You stated earlier that you wanted "maximal power" from this machine, well, you are already working against yourself by
wanting to go with a barrel vawt and wood magnet rotors.
  Also, Otherpower is NOT all about the money, I've been there for about 6 years and the stuff they sell is for people who are not
able/inclined/resourceful/intelligent enough to DIY. I have no doubt that folks on this board can help you, but if you want to build a wind
turbine, and build it efficiently and successfully then Otherpower is the site you need to be devoting your reading time to.
  Again, if harsh sounding then I apologize, but at this point re-inventing the wheel is completely unnecessary. If you would prefer that I not respond to your posts any longer, simply say so in your next post and I will respect it.       -CLFLYGUY
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 08, 2009, 02:02:13 AM
Are you crazy I don't take anything as a low blow here you have been nothing but helpful...

But explain to me why it is improper to use plastic?

Doesn't aluminum foil serve as a good shield for magnets as I have seen in several videos.

My magnets are http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_5&products_id=53 145lbs of pull force.

I am not trying to reinvent the wheel at all just trying to make the thing a bit lighter... So it turns more easily why do you believe that making it lighter in weight will lower the power production ? I don't understand that unless of course we are going to use a gearbox?

Please explain further obviously you know something about wind turbines as you explain I do want the proper research done before the investment as well that is always a must ...

Well I guess I shouldn't have said that otherpower is all about money we know that is not entirely true. They capitalize off of lazy people which is where most revenue is generated from... But they have been a favorite site of mine for the past couple years... And they go above and beyond any store indeed they share everything with you free of charge!!!

So I retract my previous statement and sub it with this one my apologies that may have been a bit harsh on my part actually...

I would like to get ahold of a steam engine and build that wood burning generator as well someday down the road...

Anyhow take care hope to hear from you soon.

I am curious as to where you are going  mentally with this design as well...
Maybe there is a flaw in not using metal but I always thought that steel never really severed as a good shielding for magnets anyways...

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 08, 2009, 03:44:43 AM
OK, sorry...I was getting the impression you didn't want to hear it..

  The reason for mild steel magnet rotor plates is that they complete the flux path of each of the magnets, it makes the magnetic field that passes over the coils several times stronger
than any other material.

 Aluminum foil as a magnetic shielding material, hmm.. wait a sec, let me check..... nope, just folded 2 square feet of alcoas best into a 1-1/4"x1-1/4" square  x 5/32" thick pad and my 1"dia x 1/4"
neo's just laughed at it. Lots of videos on the web have been faked- some of them are quite well done.

 OK, I just went to the mag website that you provided and saw that you have chosen excellent magnets, did you get 24 of them?

Weight- at this point you really have no cause to worry about weight, a few pounds one way or the other is not going to make any difference and this machine has to be
physically strong anyway just to survive in its natural environment- the wind, sometimes LOTS of it. As for starting easily, if your blades (or drums) are balanced well
and your bearings are aligned properly, not binding and are well lubricated then it will take no more wind to start a heavy machine than it will to start a light one.

Gearbox? Not on a vawt unless it's a BIG one, at least 3 barrels high.. Vawts make the best torque but swept area is still swept area, and you have good strong magnets....

Have you decided on a system voltage yet? I'm afraid that my mental image of what you want to build is on hold until I know a couple more things about what you want to do...

Tell me about your site, any height restrictions? In town, rural?      Lots of stuff goes into the mix and I do want to see you get the best you can for your area/price range/abilities.


Let me know....   


 


Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 08, 2009, 04:58:36 AM

Hi Infringer and Cityguy,

Infringer, a heavy rotor helps smooth out the rotation specially when there is wind gusts, same as a heavy flywheel on the old one cylinder farm motors without it you would break a crankshaft in no time. It helps to protect the blades on a windmill from constant speed up and down. It also serves to maximize your magnetic flux where it counts and that is where your coils sit plus it smooths out your power curve.

Cityguy probably knows more than both of us together, so I may chime in from time to time but all I know, I have told you... I never made a windmill or studied much about it since I cannot install one that would be higher than my fence. I will make one this summer but it will be 4 to 5 feet high and sit on my rear porch and complement my motor/charger that is in the design stage now and solar panels. I am also planing a stationary bike small charger for my wife who likes to pedal while watching her soaps. So why not charge my many UPS batteries in front of the TV.

Take care both,

Michel



Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 09, 2009, 04:09:33 AM
OK, sorry...I was getting the impression you didn't want to hear it..

  The reason for mild steel magnet rotor plates is that they complete the flux path of each of the magnets, it makes the magnetic field that passes over the coils several times stronger
than any other material.

 Aluminum foil as a magnetic shielding material, hmm.. wait a sec, let me check..... nope, just folded 2 square feet of alcoas best into a 1-1/4"x1-1/4" square  x 5/32" thick pad and my 1"dia x 1/4"
neo's just laughed at it. Lots of videos on the web have been faked- some of them are quite well done.

 OK, I just went to the mag website that you provided and saw that you have chosen excellent magnets, did you get 24 of them?

Weight- at this point you really have no cause to worry about weight, a few pounds one way or the other is not going to make any difference and this machine has to be
physically strong anyway just to survive in its natural environment- the wind, sometimes LOTS of it. As for starting easily, if your blades (or drums) are balanced well
and your bearings are aligned properly, not binding and are well lubricated then it will take no more wind to start a heavy machine than it will to start a light one.

Gearbox? Not on a vawt unless it's a BIG one, at least 3 barrels high.. Vawts make the best torque but swept area is still swept area, and you have good strong magnets....

Have you decided on a system voltage yet? I'm afraid that my mental image of what you want to build is on hold until I know a couple more things about what you want to do...

Tell me about your site, any height restrictions? In town, rural?      Lots of stuff goes into the mix and I do want to see you get the best you can for your area/price range/abilities.


Let me know....   


 




My place of residence is countryside there is a lot of pines but there is a lot of wind actually...
There is trees sparsely but for the most part there is about 4 acres of open area or more...

They are tall jack pines so lots of wind flows even through the woods...

Hrmmm shame I was hoping to get away from the typical honking metal disc simply cause stuff like that costs cash people don't like to give that stuff away and its like friggin treasure hunting with my population so it'd be better just to buy the stuff most likely ....

I want the cheapest setup I can find I am willing to spend cash on approxamately 3 good mk deka batteries or something for now sealed gel batteries obviously car batteries are no good for this stuff.

So this is what I know but I guess my plan is to start small and grow like the majority of us I'd prefer to start with one battery and work my way up personally just so I don't do overkill... But I wanna make sure my turbine can generate some good power and if need be I will build more and more untill I have the powa! :P

I guess I wanna do a mix of solar and wind and eventually be off grid but that is a long term goal.

29kwh per day avg this year so I have already cut down quite a bit in power consumption so if I read that right I use about 1.3kw every hour...

It is not half bad but if I could achive my goal I will be a happy camper eventually though I will need to grid tie everything as well which will result in losses so if I could achive say 3kw over the next few years that will be excellent indeed!

It may be cheaper to say purchase something ready made and just get it over with like a 5kw wind turbine I really don't know but I like the hands on experience as well though so ready made is kinda a last resort plus my budget is not thousands and thousands either...

I'll be lucky to have a thousand dollars total thanks to tax time...

Anyhow thanks again for the excellent info!!! Just keep with me I really need someone with your persistance to help me see this through do not give up on me...

Suggestions for these metal pieces would be nice as far as magnets I may need to order some more...
Barrels are kinda in the works a friend has a couple but they got some chemical in them that eats right through metal so that is rather scary to mess with that ...

I believe I may have about 10 -12 of them magnets if I recall correct... I may even have to purchase a tool or two as well to get the job done along the way but I have most of what I should need.

as far as welding I think I may have to outsource that to a good friend of mine he has access to a nice wire feed welder.
He'll do it for next to nothing I am sure anyhow thats about the max of my knowladge. Thats where I am the beginning stages the planning stages so what you help me with here is critical and will decide my purchases and where to get stuff the cheapest and what will be required.

Maybe I could have 3 rotors and stators one on the top one in the middle and one on the bottom. I don't want to do over kill either by causing lack of start up do to lack of torque this is why I was semi worried about the weight issue start up it takes more starting power the heavier you design the thing.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 09, 2009, 02:01:11 PM
Alright,
  Now we are getting somewhere. That big open area is just screaming to me for a hawt not a vawt, vawts are for marginal areas
that have a lot of turbulence... It sounds like you have a really good site and the chemical barrels really do sound kind of scary,
even if they are free. I have had acid burns and caustic burns and neither is any fun, you betcha....
  I suggested brake rotors before because they can be used with an inexspensive trailer hub for a hawt or a vawt, and used ones
are usually free at a garage or brake shop. They are already the right size for a 12 or 24v turbine.
  More to come in a few min., I have to go look at something for you...

 http://www.tlgwindpower.com/rotors/trinadoelite.htm   -If you aren't in the mood to carve wood blades, these 7 foot alum. blades are only $269.00 and will give you many years of service without the problems associated with the Chineese fiberglass blades.
  If you have the patience and time, then wood blades are the cheapest answer at about $20.00 and lots of elbow grease.. You can
use the the money you saved on blades to buy some pipe for your tower or wire, inverter etc..

P.S. buy more magnets, you'll need 24 of them.
 
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 09, 2009, 03:40:56 PM
I rent currently but my landlords are how do you say very approving of anything...

I really do not want to have this super tall mast to take down if I happen to move I want something a little more ground level...

This may sound foolish to you but yesterday I did a test with some computer fans I find that they put out some decent current for there size...


Now if someone were to design a VWAT that would hold hundreds of these little fans to form each blade not only could the power be aquired from the turbine itself but each blade would put out power as well as the machine as a whole I know sounds a little like an impossible dream but I had to share the idea... (I will not be doing this it was only a test with an 80mm case fan.)

The design will be VWAT I am stuck with that so as far as blade carving that is far from an issue.

So I guess my build I want to keep simple yet with good output and at a cheap price budget wind turbine with the output and durability of a good VWAT that would normally cost me more ...

Lets stick with VWAT if it is break rotors I need then break rotors I will get with a trailer hub I would like to find some large ones though hopefully this is possible...

I would like the bearings to move quite smooth though I want to reduce friction and have power production at say a 7mph wind if possible.

Elbow grease is not a problem at all I know stuff just don't come served on a platter you have to work for it.
There is a barrel rolling design that I wouldn't mind building as well but the problem with that design is that it only catches wind in 2 directions so that lessens the output of the machine ... but in my case I would try that before an hwat...

I don't want hwat simply because of the tower erection I wanna stay away from this completely I was going to take that route and tie it to the house but research has indicated a better route for me to take in my position so I will stand with VWAT.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 09, 2009, 08:27:30 PM
Hi Infringer,

Here is a way to improve the power of a barrel type Savonius, a pain to do but it could work. Make plenty of vertical rectangular holes, let's say 4" wide by 12" long, install rubber flaps to the inside curve so when it gets the negative pressure that lower torque, the flaps open to let air out and close when it is in the positive air pressure side, it could also be small hinges on the cutout pieces with limited travel.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 09, 2009, 08:36:51 PM
hehe that is a page out of my swastika looking turbine I assume I will run into some issues with the rubber flying off or jerking on the rotor lessening the shelf life of my system...

Or so it is said I like the barrel design because its shape alone minimizes back pressure or negative forces simply by aerodynamics.

I dont need sophisticated setup I suppose one that works is important if I have to go 3 barrels high to make it worth my while I will!

But I do not want a big tower cemented in the ground that I can not take with me...

Keepin it simple you know...

Take care man and the idea was superb I may try it out in a future build!

-infringer-
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 09, 2009, 08:48:26 PM

Re Infringer,

You could use truck mud flaps and use the thinner part and minimize the number of holes with larger ones. Companies throw away partialy broken ones and you could get them for free. If you know a trucker, the better. The Savonius offers great torque but it is only about 13% efficient, it could raise to 25% easy with one or two holes.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 10, 2009, 04:18:26 PM
Now we are getting somewhere starting to pick up some things along the way...

OK first question the number of 13% efficient where did you get that data ? Is there some kind of efficiency chart or something for wind turbines?

What type of rating do other turbines have?

Great thinking truck flaps are rather rugged indeed...

Maybe if I put swiss cheese holes along the region there is back pressure with a drill bit and on the inside put a truck flap or something similar it will do me some good while still maintaining structure ...

What are your thoughts on that ...

I am still worried about weight because it has to make a big difference the more I think about it the more it makes since.

EFFECTS:
- Start up speed
- The amount of time before next service
- Places more friction on every joint and bearing

Hard telling what else... I have not mentioned for sure ...

But I suppose if I set up a date with a wind turbine shes gonna have to put out !!!

:P :P :P

EDIT: the wind coming in on that curve may blow the flap open when it is trying to catch wind which would kind of equalize the effect a bit just thinking out loud here I figure you have to view the pluses and minuses of everything and not turn a blind eye.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 10, 2009, 07:35:14 PM
Hi Infringer,

The reference to the 13% efficiency is in this post:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7169.msg169025#msg169025 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7169.msg169025#msg169025)

As for the flap staying open, I don't think there will be a problem since when the edge of the barrel half start to get in the positive pressure position, the curve form will create vortexes that will act on the flap(s) to keep it close.

A conventional propeller windmill can get up to 30% efficiency depending on the blade system used, from the same site where the document came from.

The inherent weight of the Savonius setup calls for a strong central shaft and cone bearings, roller can't be used as they would fail, they are made to work in a horizontal setup. If the bearing are lubed with light oil (felt washer below in a plastic cup (plastic jar cap jammed under and touching) to act as oil reserve) start up speed won't be affected or not much.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 11, 2009, 04:47:01 AM
YIKES!

7watts of power an hour

Screw this I don't see how I missed that I could purchase solar cells and tab them cheaper then I can build this turbine and that is with the enclosure for them... I am not impressed at all my little 1ft by 2ft solar panel puts out 10 watts of power and that costs less then 100bux to build and that was because I used expensive plexiglass I could have built it for roughly 20bux...

OK so here I am back to the drawing board!

I want a cheap solution to going green not too much to ask but it seems as if every which way I turn someones just out trying to make a buck off you... Starting with X10 home automation which is JUNK little do they tell you that you have to couple your phases in order for things to work properly throughout the home whew how about a few more hundred for an electrician while your at it not to mention the hassle of getting your electric co. to disconnect your meter...


I don't see how I missed your original posting...

By the way I was thinking of only lapping the barrels half way I dont know if that makes a difference in power production or not?

What can I do to generate a fair amount of power at lower winds preferably without erecting a tower 7watts is just not worth the efforts and investment I wanna see a quicker ROI ...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 11, 2009, 05:00:51 AM
Hi Infringer,

Any mobile home park around your place?

Get a complete axle with wheel drums and you can probably get away with as low as $50.00. You would get 4 bearings and race, 2 nice spindles and a tough shaft where you could weld side arms for holding at least dual barrels Savonius. That would be as cheap as you can get. We bought a few many years ago with rims and tires for not much than that to make a trailer for a 35' boat. You can weld supports on the wheel spokes for the external support or simply go with guide wires for the top part.

Cheaper is get a small trailer that someone wants to scrap and use the parts in the same way.

If anything else comes to mind, I will post.

Take care,

Michel

Edit: Mount the barrel halves 90 degree from level 1 to level 2 and get a lower start up speed.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 11, 2009, 05:58:41 AM
Yes there sure is a mobile home park around my place but no one wants to get rid of anything around here it seems I dunno why...

Everyone pack rats stuff I mean stuff you would never expect them to but anyhow...

Do you think this will result in a better output? I'm looking for a decent power curve obviously I will be using plastic barrels so as for rust that will not be an issue.

They have 32 gallon trash bins rubber maid at walmart locally for 10bux a piece might also be worth it if my barrels do not show. I have a lot to accomplish here actually even for a simplistic design ...

I thank you for staying with me though it appears cflguy has jumped ship I must have said something that stired em wrong or maybe I was a bit too dumb I dunno...

I am trying to do this right the first time I guess and I know there are others who have been down this road who can share things with me. To save time and money.

I may be taking a trip to locate some barrels without chemicals here tomorrow hopefully I can get these folks to sell the barrels.

I may stick with two high as well because the issue of stability ...

The other thing i would love to try is hanging coils from string and having them swing over a magnet and only allow a limited amount of movement say maybe see what kind of power this could bring it would be super easy to build and test and would resemble the elastic flutter design but on a larger scale... That's just a jot for future tinkering.

I wanna see way more power then 7watts though realistically if I don't generate decent watts average it may not be worth my while to use wind I really need to do some rethinking here if 7watts is the production avg...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 11, 2009, 07:03:38 AM

Re Infringer,

If you mount 2 halves on 1 level and the 2 other halves 90 degree offset from the 1st level, you will save on the total height of your setup as you will need side brace supports and angle braces to strengthen them. The top one, braced under the lower support and the bottom one reversed with the reinforcement brace going up to the main rotor shaft from its top support. That is why the 90 degree offset. It will also negate much wobbling tendency.

The 7 watts reported was probably due to the use of a car alternator and under 10 mph wind as specified in the article. If you use a large rotor 20" or more and make your own bifilar coils, I would expect a minimum of 400 watts under a 14 mph head wind.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 11, 2009, 07:30:22 AM

Re Infringer,

When I tested my alternator with my 1/2" drill in low setting, giving me 300 rpm I got close to 18 amps at 14.3 V from my 12 bifilar coils of awg 18 magnet wire and 2 facing sets (16 magnets, 32 total) of 1 1/2" X 1" X 1/4" N48 neo mounted on 1/8" thick 10" diameter steel disks.

With the torque you will get from a dual barrel setup, I don't think 20" would be too hard to spin to 100 rpm, that is why a large rotor might be better. You would need to make your rotor after a speed test.

Don't expect the thing to spin at 300-400 rpm, well balance or not.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 11, 2009, 07:48:36 AM

Re Infringer,

The last part of your previous post mention testing the "windbelt" concept, I have  read a bit on that and it is a very interesting and efficient design. I have done a few tests with the nylon straps used for strapping cargo on trailers.

It would work but not well as the original design but would still work well with a pulley at each ends  and magnets in coils and a good spring for the swinging effect at the opposite ends. Multiple units would be highly productive in a staircase arrangement.

That's all for now. Too bad for Cityguy as I was looking forward to him doing the rotor and design.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: tbird on April 11, 2009, 03:07:04 PM
hi infringer,

just a thought......

http://mikeswindmillshop.com/LowWindGenerator.html

tom
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: tbird on April 11, 2009, 03:34:53 PM
hi infringer,

i should mention too, you might find the best price for your batteries (6 volt golf cart) at sam's.

when the price of lead went up to $1.60 a pound, battery prices went crazy.  lead is back to $.60 lb (+ or -).  as you know, once a price is raised, it's hard to see it go back down.  sam's has been the best i've seen, so far.

tom
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 11, 2009, 05:27:05 PM
Too sweet 440bux I might be in budget if I purchase one of these and I build my barrel turbine this forum kicks rear! Don't really wanna erect the turbine so to speak errrr! at that price ready made though is the first fair price I have seen thus far.

Sucks its only for the month of April though... Kinda pushy makes me question weather it is legit or a scam... I suppose if it were I have relatives in AZ that could take care of it!

errr yeah cityguy dunno whats up with him.



Michelinho, I don't know how to thank you bud you have been a great help taking time out of your day everyday for someone you don't even know man much appreciated that is too cool man!

The wattage being higher was the result I would expect as well with a larger rotor but now that I need this rotor to be a rotor from say an automotive or trailer part I will reduce the size a bit unless I can somehow shield my magnets in a different manner.

Anyhow still looking I would love to just try glassing them in but I don't care to waste 100bux on mags and have them not put out nothing obviously I want to maximize output from an design already made.

Well I will have to cut out for now until tonight lots of cleaning to do spring is here.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: tbird on April 11, 2009, 08:55:06 PM
hi infringer,

this page (really his whole website) maybe helpful too if you decide to build yourself.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/builders_corner.htm


in the instructions for putting his kit together, you'll find info on how to wind coils, etc.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/turbine%20kit.pdf

i bought one of his kits.  i have to say i like it.  it is just right for learning and still end up with something a bit bigger than the first.  it will cost a bit more by the time all parts are counted, but still not a bad price.

those steel plates really make a difference!  with a rotor with magnets facing stator, on both sides of the stator, the flux that would normally spread out all around the magnet (without the steel plate) will be channeled between a north magnet on one disk and a south (facing) on the other disk.  this is where the stator lives.  this gives a lot more available flux to make power as it passes the coils.

he is really nice and easy to get along with.  he even welded (at a real cheap price) the few pieces together for me before shipping

tom. 
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 11, 2009, 10:47:58 PM
Geeez, guys....
  I take Good Friday off and y'all think I jumped ship. I had chores to do.
 
A trailer hub with its stub axle welded onto the end of a piece of something (pipe, channel, angle, trailer undercariage parts) puts the underside of the machine
and the alternator not much higher than your head (hopefuly) for ease of maintenance. Trailer hub already has conical bearings for end thrust. Use white lithium
grease and be liberal with it.

  Price two 3/8" thick 20" dia. waterjet cut pieces of plate mild steel, or use the brake discs, either way I can give you CAD or .jpg drawings for the parts
in a few min. based on a 5 lug pattern typical in the U.S..

  A sidenote though, if going with the 20" dia. alt., I would go 3 barrels high, as the resistance to movement upon reaching cut-in speed
(magnet/coil) even though electrically is virtually the same as on a 12 or 13" dia. brake rotor, it is not the same from a mechanical standpoint because
the location of the resistance (magnet coil- think of mechanical friction) is about 65% further away from the center of rotation which gives it a great deal more
mechanical advantage. (Thats why big dia. disc brakes stop you faster than small ones)
 
  To get what you want, with what you want to work with is going to take an alt that cuts in at a fairly low speed which means big coils... Speaking of which,
Michelinho said to wind your coils bifilar- I would say wind one that way and one the regular way and test them both individually- I seem to recall a lot of hubbub
a while back about bifilar coils not being inductive and not being right for the axial flux alts. I'm not an electronics guy so I'm not the oracle on that- GOOGLETIME!
I do know that a bifilar wound electromagnet is incredibly strong though- I have a little 1"x.25"x5" piece of mild steel with 3 layers of 50 turns wrapped in the
bifilar manner that will lift 6lbs. with a1.5v AA battery- incredible. Try a Google search of the Otherpower board on the bifilar stuff though, I seem to recall some problem.
  Pick an operating voltage so we can figure coil size and stuff. I will include some sketches of what I'm thinking about and you can tell me what to change and I'll attach
the edited version each time we talk- we can design this machine right here on the 'board, should be fun...

so, to start... (I hope it attached) here is one of my magnet rotors, easy to make and already has the convenience of being "componentized" to be used on a trailer hub.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 12, 2009, 12:29:58 AM
OK,
  Some sketches I drew up real quick, this first one is to scale with Mr. Ergo who is 6' tall to give a sense of size.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 12, 2009, 12:35:47 AM
Wow, OK,
  If you hit enter it submits instantly..
This next one is a closeup of the alt from the side with the bottom most plywood disc and the axle stub that is to be welded to whatever elevated support.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 12, 2009, 12:42:29 AM

Hi Cityguy,

Nice drawings, it is indeed worth a thousand words.

Thanks,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 12, 2009, 12:44:31 AM
This one lets you pretend you have xray vision, as you are looking through rotors, stator, split barrels and one of the plywood separator discs..
As far as the stability issue is concerned, you will need another hub at the top with a center pipe going up the middle to connect them. This is
about the only way to keep things from rapidly getting out of hand.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 12, 2009, 12:50:15 AM
This is a look at one of the brake rotors superimposed on the stator. The trailer hubs with stub axles have stubs that are square or round, get the square one for ease
of welding the stator support struts to.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 12, 2009, 12:57:22 AM
Last one,
  Here is the top with the second hub, once again you can see how useful the square stub is for welding on the extended brackets for
the guy wires. In all seriousness, you could make the alternator in three evenings and the vawt over a weekend.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 12, 2009, 03:13:21 AM
The list the amperage and volts the thing puts out but there is no wattage curve which is what I am interested in ...

If the barrel turbine puts out more watts I figure why waste 440bux been thinking while I was out cleaning the garage I guess I'll have to do the math here...

5MPH
.2 amps
20 volts

10MPH
.4 amp
23 volt

15MPH
1.5 amp
42 volt

20MPH
3 amp
60 volt

25MPH
4.9 amp
72 volt

30MPH
7.5 amp
92 volt

35MPH
9.5 amp
104 volt

40MPH
10 amp
118 volt

45MPH
11 amp
120 volt

That is simply for the ready made jobber....

HOLY MOLY!

EUREAKA! I think we are one to one hell of a project there cityguy too sweet!

I have one issue though I am only able to get two barrels at the moment but I will most likely be cutting them in half tomorrow providing Easter Sunday is not to hectic my grandparents will be down in a week to spend the summer with us as well but there is no kabash on this project....

So I have barrels that are supposed to arrive tomorrow hope that materializes and I get time to cut them in half! But my coil did come in the mail 11lbs of it!
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 12, 2009, 03:39:58 AM
VOLTAGE I am going for 12v No Doubt there seems like the way to go.

Barrels will be 2 high and I will have to find some hubs so 12 or 13" seems like the way to go for now.

3 barrels would be great sure but 2 is what I can get for now so I will plan for 2...

hrmmm 13gauge coil here...

Not to go off topic here but those of you reading along interested in micro turbines you can use your computer case fans and some of that plastic packaging and some wood screws wire all your fans in a series and generate some power this was a little side test I did.

EDIT:
What did you use to anchor your magnets in place super glue or epoxy?
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 12, 2009, 04:26:43 AM
Errr I should not have messed with my mags tonite but I was curious I noticed there was a hole in them so I dunno if those were the ones I got I actually bought these mags a while ago and I started pulling them apart and snap the force friggin busted the mag into pieces man these are some tough bastards lol!

NOTE: They may only have 81lbs pull force not 100% sure but I'm thinking of purchasing all new mags and saving these for another project down the line seeing as how I may need the extra pull  in order to generate some good power...

So how many mags? Where is the cheapest source? And what pull rating do you think is needed for it to put out some good wattage at lower speeds? Knowing that I broke one already thats possibly only 81lbs of pull I suppose I should order one or two extra in the event that I should break one again but it was either the mag or my finger so I chose the mag... Just breaking the mag tought me an important lesson though hehe I've ordered everything so far from magnet4less.com maybe they are cheaper somewhere else for all I know also is the length important ? Would one 4" in length allow for larger coils and more power output then one that is 2" long at the same pull force?

If you look off to the left there is the magnet that smashed into pieces definately will have to order more...

But maybe I'll just get all new seeing as how I will likely not be purchasing that tower setup I just aint into setting up a tower so to speak on a rental property the barrel turbine will do though I can always take that with me I have a feeling the shelf life of the barrels will be rather good being plastic.

And for documentation purposes a saloon door with a spring with coils and mags might not be a bad idea either to try ... Errr sorry for going off topic a little but I will jot down ideas like this during this whole project do not let them detour you in any way!

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 12, 2009, 05:03:33 PM
Alright Infringer!
  Finally, got a voltage to work with! Soooo, 12v, two barrels max.. In that case buy 24 of the 1x2x1/2" epoxy coated mags and mount them
N-S-N-S-N-S on the brake rotors with a little dab of epoxy under each one. Prepare the rotors first by sanding with some 80 grit and wiping
down with a clean rag and a little acetone. After mounting the mags (I hope you drew up and used a template) give the rotors at least two
coats of your favorite color Rustoleum. Before you even start though, you MUST align the brake rotors with each other based on their lug
holes and file a little notch on both of their outside perimeters at the same time so your mags will align properly- very important to do this
accurately and carefully. When all is said and done, your arrangement should be like this-

    rotorotorotorotorotor
    N S N S N S N S N
  statorstatorstatorstator
    S N S N S N S N S
    rotorotorotorotorotor

Note to Michelinho- Earlier in this thread you suggested that Infringer mount the mags with all of the same polarity facing one direction-
AAHHH! NNNOOOO!!! While this might work for a window motor or other more esoteric applications that I have seen here on this board
it definitely will not work on an axial flux alternator, plain and simple.

The mags you have now (if you bought some more for a complete set of 24) would be great for a larger machine, but have a little too
much ass for a two barrel 12v vawt.
  Since you're going with a vawt (somewhat slower) and 13ga. wire, then you will be in the neighborhood of about 65-70 turns per coil.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 12, 2009, 06:30:19 PM
Before we go too wild do you have any idea what a rough output will be "LOW ESTIMATE" in say a 12mph wind watts?

I would say aside from the 2007 wind maps going by just normal observation that is my average wind speed not the 14mph that they say on the wind map...

I wanna have a decent wattage at this speed if I need bigger mags rotors or more barrels so be it...

I guess 400watts at 12mph wind would be ideal but I will settle for less if need be I will continue to work at the build aspect to fit the power production goal but I would prefer to know what I need before building you are a great help thus far man just hang in there with me and help me settle on a design after we are done I plan on creating a materials listing and a guide to follow.

Good power production at a cheap price that is the goal here time for the DIY guy to have the edge over the market.

WARNING: THIS IS NOT A SCALE DRAWING JUST A ROUGH SKETCH THE BLUE BOXES ARE THE BARREL HALVES AND THE GREEN LINE IS THE GRASSY GROUND!

Below is a picture of how I thought about this design before I knew a thing about savonious...
Things to note:
- The Pole is stationary
- The stator is stationary
- There are two generators on this unit one on top and one on the bottom..
- The barrels are connected to the rotor and spin around the pole
- The through bolts hold the barrel in place from bouncing up and down  and keep the unit solid while it spins.
- The two barrels sets are connected in the middle and will also need a bearing there as well.

Here is how I envisioned it to work I do not fully understand the mechanics of operation of your design but it appears as if the turbine will not only have to spin the rotor but it will have to spin a pole as well I am just trying to clarify the design principal pleas best describe the operation of your design maybe I'm used to lame schematics like the one I drew I dunno but here was my thought...

Enjoy time for a little spring cleaning I will check back now and then for rx's.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 12, 2009, 06:49:10 PM
AHHH HA your stator will be between two rotors on the bottom even less to turn I think errr well in your design you will have to turn the pole as well as the rotor which will take more effort then turning two rotors I think will it not?

I dunno I think having two rotors will result in a lower startup speed and keep things more mechanically sound.

Just suggestions I value your input on these thoughts...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 12, 2009, 08:33:04 PM
DUDE!

  I thought you said you had been reading at Otherpower for two years? The whole concept of these type alternators is having the stator between two
mag rotors to take advantage of the more powerful mag flux available with the NIB mags. Your idea about having an alt at each end has been hashed over
many many times and for efficiencies/costs sake the decision has to go to just one somewhat larger alt. One mag rotor & one set of coils doesn't make
power as efficiently as two mag rotors, one on each side of a set of coils. Plus it's cheaper, because you don't have to make two sets of coils.

-Of course the center pipe turns, why add friction? It reaches from bearing to bearing and provides stabilization to the machine's mass. It does not require
any special effort to turn, as it turns with the mass of the machine itself.

Separated 1 rotor/1 stator sets would actually make for a HIGHER start-up speed because they would have to be spun faster to to make the same voltage as a
2 mag rotor/1 stator alt.

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 13, 2009, 06:36:49 AM
OK lets take this approach then you tell me what is needed and listen so far from what I am gathering I need this.

So materials needed to make this all work are:

- 24 Coated magnets for hughe piggots turbine
http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_123&products_id=423
- 11 lbs 13gauge magnetic coil
http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=9_20&products_id=178
- 2 55gal Drums
http://store.bayteccontainers.com/plastic-water-drum-55-gallon.html
- 2 Rotors
http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=155&osCsid=5tmcqv5394ts68t19j7g1o2vb6
- Fiberglass and Resin
http://www.fiberglasssite.com/servlet/StoreFront
- Epoxy for magnets
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTYG7&P=FR
- Shafts
?
- Bearings
?
- Spacer plate for magnets for setting up the space between mags
http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=165

Does this all seem correct or am I missing something? I guess I need to know the specs of what I all need as far as poles and such so I can get er done and get it started. My main issue will be the shafts and such required there is one local junkyard that I have trouble making it to during the week due to my work hours.

Obviously we will need different bolts and fasteners and brackets I have purchased some angle brackets steels 1/8" 3" x  3"
Lets do it.

Why don't you make me out a complete listing of what I need and I'll go there and get it.

I must warn you ahead of time I do not have a welder personally a friends friend has one wire feed so if I can do this without welding it would be a preference ... Which is why I was suggesting the previous setup. The other way I see it can be done without a welder would be the top rotor connected to the barrels and the bottom rotor and the coils in the center stationary... But this is not what you have planned so I will follow just tell me what is needed.

EDIT we will also need batteries.

Deka MK Gel Sealed what rating and how many?
http://greenenergiesllc.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=10&zenid=127d5d77920a13328702f45bf27e08b5
Charge controller suggestion?


UPDATE: MAGS ON ORDER along with mag spacer plate so I can be sure the spacing is correct looks like its 12"

I did not order rotor cause I need to see what I can dig up possibly... Don't have the faintest clue where to start trailer parks are doubtful but I will look into where to find these things.

What would it be called exactly that I am looking for and need for the shaft (pole) and bearings and where are some obvious places to look for them with a 12" rotor ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 13, 2009, 11:20:05 AM
Hi Cityboy,

Quote
Note to Michelinho- Earlier in this thread you suggested that Infringer mount the mags with all of the same polarity facing one direction-

That was for the real Savonius rotor which uses magnets upright at the end of a flat rotor and coils upright on the stator around the rotor facing those magnets mimicking the window/SSG motor setup.

@ Infringer,

Quote
Deka MK Gel Sealed what rating and how many?
http://greenenergiesllc.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=10&zenid=127d5d77920a13328702f45bf27e08b5
Charge controller suggestion?

You can use regular car batteries because the charge controller is a pulse charging unit and it does enhance the useful life expectancy of the lead acid batteries.

The charge controller depends on your alternator output.

Take care,

Michel


Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: tbird on April 13, 2009, 03:52:31 PM
Quote
You can use regular car batteries because the charge controller is a pulse charging unit and it does enhance the useful life expectancy of the lead acid batteries.

i think if you use a regular car battery, you'll be sorry!  you should use a deep cycle battery, like a golf cart battery.  car batteries basically have one job, start the engine.  after that the alt supplies all the power requirements.

i would suggest going with 6 volt golf cart batteries.  this way you are assured of getting a deep cycle battery (and they are easier to connect multiples) .  if you go with a 12volt battery, make sure it is heavy for its size.  most golf cart batteries weight about 60 lbs. (+ or - 5%).  as you may know most car batteries are much lighter because they only need a surge once in awhile, for a short time to start the engine.  lighter = less lead.

also the nice gel and agm batteries are expensive compared to the $60-65 (+ core and tax) at sam's club for golf cart batteries. you will get 3-5 years (on average) good use.  plenty of time to make sure you want to stay with this system.  then if you want a longer lasting (if you don't overcharge them) battery, you can switch.

tom
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 13, 2009, 07:30:55 PM
I have had horrible luck with car batteries...

I dunno dont think I will take that route the deka mk seem fairly reasonable...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 13, 2009, 08:30:16 PM
@ Tom- Yeah, Sam's 6v golfcart batts are the perfect choice at this stage of the game- floodeds are much easier to monitor properly.

@ Michelinho-  It's CLFLYGUY 8)

@ Infringer-
 
Forget steel rotors from Otherpower unless you just want to pay shipping on $80.00 of steel. Find a Brake Shop somewhere and grab a couple
of discarded disc brake rotors - They're FREE and the magnets stick to them just fine..

The template for the mags you can make for yourself with a compass, protractor and a piece of cardboard.... 12 mags, 30^ apart = 360^

So far I've saved you over $100.00....

The center pipe can be galv. water pipe, mild steel, galv. fence pipe- whatever, so long as it's straight.

Sheet of 1/2" exterior plywood for top, middle & bottom discs (airflow enhancers) and assorted other smaller discs yet to be discussed...

A gallon of your favorite color exterior latex enamel

There has to be four welds- the four 1/4"x2"x approx. 8" pieces of plate that the threaded rod that suspends the stator are bolted to,
and your buddies wire feed gun will do fine- just be sure to take hub, bearing and any lubricant off before welding.

Two hub assemblies- take a look at some of these I found at Northern Tool, maybe you can find some locally or cheaper somewhere

https://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?Ne=2000002&Ntt=Tie%20Down&Ntk=All&storeId=6970&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&N=166843+2000006 (https://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?Ne=2000002&Ntt=Tie%20Down&Ntk=All&storeId=6970&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&N=166843+2000006)

Study a couple of the early builds of the brake rotor alternators at Otherpower.

Later...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 14, 2009, 01:06:24 AM


Sorry CLFLYGUY for the error  :'( , I was on painkillers all weekend long (still on), had a blurry vision and mind.

Take care,  ;D

Michel



Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 14, 2009, 01:17:32 AM
CLFYGUY,

Sweet deal bud looking good thus far rustolelum seems to fair pretty well hell folks have been doing paint jobs on there cars with it some had good success while others had issues but that alone says something aside from the fact that I have used it and it lasted fairly long even outdoors and its cheap to boot so that'll be what I shall use!

I may paint the barrels to slave off some of the wear from the sun if they are any other color then white. That is the color I will be using to reflect as much sunlight as possible.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Thaelin on April 15, 2009, 08:49:38 PM
   OK, I have to bring up one "VERY" important item that seems to be left
out of all the sites on wind. I have ask the question a few times and no one
will venture to answer but sure needs to be thought out carefully.
   How are you going to lower the two rotor halves together, safely? You have
12 pairs of 13000 gauss at a very small distance apart when in place. That
converts to one hell of a lot of force wanting to crush anything that gets in the
way. Namely hands and fingers.
   Make sure you have someone handy to help you or at least watch so if it
goes wrong can help you. I cringe when I think of two  2X1X1/2 grade 45 neos
that close.

   Since I could get no good answer, I chose to go with smaller mags and more
coils in a larger circle. When you look at the layout of the stator compared to the
rotor, you will always have 4 magnets and 3 coils. My mag/coil sets are 12/16
and the rotors will actually have 48 magnets on them. This leaves me a great
latitude on wire up of the phases. At the moment, I see 9 phases out to three
diode sets.

thaelin
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 16, 2009, 04:02:00 AM
  Some folks drill a couple extra holes in the rotors for jacking screws. Personally the use of heavy welders gloves, the friction of the first rotors five 1/2"-13
threaded rods against the sides of the holes on the second rotor, and a couple paint stir sticks did the trick.... Along with five carefully measured & cut
aluminum tube spacers that held the rotors perfectly parallel to one another, (they fit over the all-thread between the rotors). 8)

clflyguy
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Michelinho on April 16, 2009, 06:39:53 AM


Hi Thaelin,

I also uses 16 magnets per rotor and 12 coils. The magnets are 1.5" x 1" x 1/4" Blocks and had no trouble assembling these rotors with a center spacer installed and no stator in place. I made my stator in 2 halves with 6 coils on each and I can assemble and disassemble them without having to touch the rotors. I can change the coil wire size if need be even without stopping the alternator. Installing the second rotor with a stator in place would be a lot harder if jack screws are not used. I also use 12 rectifier bridges, one for each coil, that way I can set it for 12 volts, 24 volts, 36 volts or 48 volts just with a fast modification of the external connections.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 17, 2009, 09:54:42 PM
hrmm... yes that is an issue I am glad you brought that one up...

I was under the assumption you adjust the space between two nylock nuts on a threaded rod, then you get your spacing 1 on top one on the bottom.

UPDATE on my progress:

I received 24 magnets 75lb pull epoxy coated.
I also received my plate to have precise spacing between each mag on the rotor.

Still working at the rest of her but I will get there!
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 18, 2009, 02:38:44 AM
I was able to track down some rotors at a local break joint crazy stuff indeed there is a dumpster full of em I couldn't give the guys money no matter how hard I tried so I spent 10bux in there gas station needed milk and such anyways and figure need to keep em in business somehow...

Problem is I got a set of 13" rotors and a set of 12" rotors hrmmm well I suppose it'll do the trick one pair is only a spare I'll stick with the 12's for general purpose. Now if I could find a cheap steam engine boy would I be whooping some arse!

Gotta love when things start to take shape.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 19, 2009, 05:58:28 PM
The paint choice for me is epoxy paint by Krylon. It dries and hardens well.

The color choosing will be white to effectively stamp out as much heat absorbing factor as I can without heat things tend to weather a little more less.

Tonight the plan is to work at getting rid of all the rust on the rotors possibly painting as well.
Tools I will be using is an orbital sanding unit and a Black and Decker Dremel which is the best dremel for the money at walmart loads of power I have used the regular dremel brand and it does not compare unless you get the 100.00 version not worth it though trust me!

Oh hell one slight issue I have is forgetting to purchase the glue for the mags! Well at least I can make some forward progress on the rotors and have them all marked out as per the instructions of the members here.

I still am lost at the complete design from clfguy I really need to understand the mechanics of the rest of the turbine and his design he seems to be pretty firm and sure on his design not that there are not other ways to do it I'm sure but I want a solid proven design!

I question how these poles and stators and rotors and blades are going to all come together I know threaded rod was mentioned and welds here and there...

Thanks for the help guys please don't stop now I really need your help we can do this cheaply and make the whole project available for folks to see here publically.

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 19, 2009, 11:33:47 PM
OK then,
  Moving right along... Good score on the rotors 8)
Go ahead and get your 1/2" exterior plywood, carefully layout then cutout your discs. You will see in the included drawings
that you have a little woodwork to do, and it must be done with a little forethought- make templates for the smaller discs
as they must be very accurate to accommodate the five lug pattern of the hub (on top) and magnet (brake) rotor (bottom).

  Measure & think many times before cutting as you actually end up saving time.

  please email me directly as we need to talk...   sidneydotraifordatgmaildotcom

now for drawings....
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 19, 2009, 11:37:14 PM
and so on...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 19, 2009, 11:38:24 PM
and so forth...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 23, 2009, 03:37:34 AM
Sweet now we are getting somewhere! muahahahaha

Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 25, 2009, 03:24:31 AM
Progress report:

Rotors before and after the grind!

and tools used...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 25, 2009, 03:26:55 AM
Marking rotors for north and south with plate used a sharpie marker!

and

Rotors Both marked and ready for epoxy and mags!
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Thaelin on April 25, 2009, 05:42:27 AM
   Nice set of rotors. Just a hint tho, you may want to take extra effort on cleaning
the magnet areas. An ounce of prevention is far better than ten pounds of cure. I
have seen what happens when a magnet goes on the loose in a gen head. Tore up
the coil set real bad.
   I have a pair of ten inch saw blades and will be putting some magnets on them for
a test of what dual rotor versus single will put out. I am only using grade eight mags
for the test but it will show me what to expect with larger. That way it will only cost
$32 for the magnets instead of $150.

   Thanks for all the tips here too. I am going to run a split stator as well. That way
it can be replaced without a tear down of the rotor set.

thaelin
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 26, 2009, 05:22:11 AM
I will be using epoxy rated for 2600psi and cures in 1min to mount them in place then I will use 5min epoxy rated at 3400PSI all the way around the magnet along the sides and from there I am thinking of using fiberglass to cover the rotors and magnets and hold them in place I have yet to see the full explanation of the best way to mount the magnets...

Would love to be sure they last a long time without having to work on the generation portion of the unit at all.

That is the goal.

Still need to get information on winding coils and making the stator assembly I would not mind purchasing one but I figure I need the expirence of winding my own coils.

I am completely open to suggestion but I will not promise I will use the suggestions mentioned...

A saw blade is an interesting idea I just wonder though for my application I don't know weather a saw blade would be of proper thickness I kinda wanna listen to what folks have to say about things you can learn a lot from other peoples expirence...

I will say I have had a horrible expirence with windblue the rotor fits too tightly inside of the stator you cannot even turn them by hand I don't know weather this is normal or not???? They are both from windblue... While that PMA is for a different project it is a shame there is no documentation at all!

I also posted at otherpower.com in hopes of a response as well...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: Thaelin on April 26, 2009, 11:12:15 AM
   The saw blades was a quick fix to having them machined. It is as I said, just a test
to see how well it fairs out. I can't expect too much with grade eights anyhow.

thay
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 26, 2009, 07:28:35 PM
@Infringer-
  Sand the mag faces of those rotors better with your orbital, get every bit of rust/corrosion off as well as your magic marker magnet placement artwork.
Make your reference notches for the mags on the outer edges of the rotors at the same time by hanging both rotors at once face to face on a piece of
steel rod or bolt through one of the 5 lug holes, this way there is no room for error in their final alignment. DO NOT FORGET that the mags alternate
+ - + - + - + - on the face of each rotor, and the opposite on the opposing rotor, so that these two rotors when placed in proper alignment on their five
threaded rods are all seeking to join each other with scary and incredible force.
  Attaching mags-  after sanding rotor faces wipe clean with alcohol or acetone, don't touch with dirty fingers. clean mags same way, one at a time
before spreading a little mixed epoxy on the PROPER SIDE and setting into place on the template. When all are placed, immediately remove template
and clean away excess epoxy from fingers, mags and template with alcohol. After doing both rotors spray paint faces, mags and at least edges with
Rustoleum. Please forget about potting the mags with resin- it's a complete waste of time and resin- you already have epoxy and magnetic force holding
the mags to the rotor, and nothing short of a thermonuclear exchange will rend them asunder..
  Write back when you finish this step-  Got your hubs yet? 8)
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 27, 2009, 04:11:39 AM
Sorry for the delay on posting the rest of the weekend turned into family time...

No I have not gotten hubs yet I am having problems locating them with all of the overtime I have been working 13hrs a day takes it out of you man I don't care who you are! I may just order them from the website you posted forgive me for the painstaking process here I know you wanna see it happen as much as I do it'll just be a while I will work at it as time permits me to.

You find another deal for hubs somewhere you let me know!

I need to get something better to get to the rust the orbital tends to miss quite a bit.

As for the threaded rod I gotta figure out the diameter am I going to need to tap the holes and screw the threaded rod in?

If so I will need to purchase a hacksaw and a tap to the appropriate size as well...


I think what we need is a good parts list and tools required list for this project unfortunately I can only assume the basics for now! You have a more in depth understanding of what is all required so by all means if you can accomplish this within the next week I would be very honored.

Then I could gather the parts and other tools needed I have just started collecting tools to hopefully have a decent way to tackle these projects. I will continue to progress but I need to stop buying other tools and get tools critical to the project only! But I will warn you a welder is an investment as well as a compressor it'll be a while before I am at liberty to purchase these items.

I will check back for the list of tools if you have a better suggestion for grinding the rotors down let me know! And something that is not pneumatic for now preferably.

As far as the epoxy goes I dunno weather I have enough or not but if need be I will get more.  I thought for sure the rotors would last a boatload longer if you made the molding and resin them in I was thinking polyester resin with MKEP hardner...

And the alternator concept I get that portion of the setup N to S  and S to N I have a handy dandy field checker for magnets that tells you weather north or south so that should not be an issue that way.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 27, 2009, 04:40:11 AM
OK we surely need a complete parts list and tools listing!

I am not seeing a lot I need 12 in wood discs 9 in wood discs how many

1/2" threaded rod sure but what lengths ?

I guess before I go further I need to know the exact parts needed sure I have some and I started a parts listing but you are going about this in a very well thought manner sure but it is your thoughts so I will need your thinking to complete the parts list and tools list needed right now so I can have everything I need to work at my side!
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 27, 2009, 02:15:49 PM
@Infringer-
  Hoss, this project is too simple for me to have to sit down and make you out a parts list. Except for how ever you are going to stand
this machine up, whether it be framework, guy wires or sky hook, everything is in the drawings. I don't know exact dimensions for your
wheel hubs because you haven't got them yet, so how can I tell you exact dimensions for the discs? Are you going to use 1/2" or 5/8"
plywood to build it? I don't know... How long should the threaded rod be? --Break out a damned tape measure and figure it out! There is
an element of design and building skills involved here that require the builder (you) to take a little initiative. This is not some patented off
the shelf design, however it is a simple and very straightforward design guaranteed to work if you if you build it anywhere near correctly.
  My suggestion to you at this point is this: sit down with a couple pieces of blank paper, a couple of pencils and a good eraser and
draw everything. Label everything. Count everything. It doesn't have to be full size, or exactly to scale, all it has to do for you is
establish in your minds eye exactly what it will look like when finished. This technique has worked for me since I was literally a child.
  Sorry for the scolding, but you're a big boy now-  Later, after it is finished you will do an "As Built" drawing (or I will, when you send me all of the dimensions) and compile a final parts list. Be safe, have fun...
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 28, 2009, 02:03:44 AM
My original goal was to have a full guide with a parts list everything required so that everyone could do this easily and cheaply to help cut costs and trials and errors of others a real working form of free power not some magnetic coil magic watt thief that gets energy from the Hoover and back emf kicks from the gravitons riding on a frequency equal to the sq root of pie + a factor of x to the z power...

Real working free energy is here and it can be accomplished with magnets wow a magnetic motor with free fuel? Why don't folks jump in it just floors me they'll spend tons of time and money on some wacky claims. Victory stares them in the face its like looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I will be watching the thread and I will post a photo when I am done some time down the road I guess but I am still open to ideas for improvement to the design obviously things can always be improved through creative thinking.

But according to clfyguy folks there is enough information here to build away so let the replications begin!


Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 28, 2009, 02:18:45 AM
For your offline viewing pleasure I have taken the liberty to archive the complete thread for you up until this point for archival reasons.

http://rapidshare.com/files/226539522/VWAT_build_thread.rar.html
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 28, 2009, 03:22:20 AM
Was that sarcasm? Do you have a specific question? If so, ask. I was not kidding about everything being there. I personally have no interest in microscopically documenting a simple barrel vawt build, but I certainly wouldn't attempt to stand in your way if it is your wish to do so. If it is not offensive to you, may I ask your age? Perhaps I have inadvertantly overestimated your comfort level
with this project. If so, then,please ask specific questions and I will help you as much as possible. Have you made your coil winder yet? Split your barrels yet? Figured your working diameter yet?
The number of plywood discs of each size you need are on the drawings, did you look at them carefuly? Are you upset because I said you need to sand the rotors more?
  If you want to drop me a personal note, I gave you my email address a few posts back. I'm not sure what your point was in the last post, and if you don't feel comfortable talking about it in an open
forum then email me directly and we can talk.
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: infringer on April 29, 2009, 12:52:57 AM
Sarcasam why do you take everything out of context sir I guess my wording seems sharp to you or something.

I'm 28 with no intentions of growing up any more then I have.

I have told you time in and out your help has been greatly appreciated I don't think sarcastic was my intention maybe I need to proof read or something ...

But no way bud I'm with yah all the way you've been a great help...

I have tons of OT and work that needs to be done on my car as well ;) So life is good but busy at the moment as I have also repeated it will be a slow process for me which is why I need all the help I can get ...

Off to eat dinner my computer time is short lived.

Take care I'll have to jot down your email as well gotta go .
Title: Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
Post by: clflyguy on April 29, 2009, 02:23:47 AM
@infringer-
  Apologies, perhaps I need to become more flexible in my interpretation of a younger persons writing style. Stay tough on the OT, as you are very fortunate to have it, given the economic reality of these times. It is this very reality that has caused a worldwide renewed interest in alternative means of producing electricity and more efficient products from nightlights to pickup trucks. Being a child of the fifties myself, my parents still imposed the frugality of the war years on me as a child. I shudder as an adult now to see the greed, waste, mismanagement and complete lack of understanding by most people of the fact that we are rapaciously depleting our limited resources with very little concern for the future. Sure, we are finally seeing some corporate media attention to these facts, but it seems that that is only because it has become trendy to do so.  Be safe, and get some rest.  Later...