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Author Topic: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!  (Read 57868 times)

Offline infringer

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Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« on: April 06, 2009, 04:25:18 AM »
I will be building a wind turbine from plastic 55gal drums...

I need specifics:

how to wind the coils for 145lb n42 bar magnets to maximize power output

What type of fiberglass and how to hold the magnets in place while glassing to keep them from smacking together.

The spacing between each magnet is critical.

The number of magnets

The space between the stator and the rotor

Should the coils rotate or should the magnets rotate what is better?

There are so many combination help wanted!

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Offline Michelinho

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2009, 04:45:40 AM »
Hi Infringer,

The link below will answer most of your questions:

http://www.otherpower.com/trips1.html

I used those tips in building my alternator and the only deviations I did was to make the stator in 2 sections (easily removable without having to take apart the magnet rotors) for ease of coils experimentation and using 12 (one per coil) rectifier bridges. If one rectifier blow, the alternator still works and you get about 33% increase in efficiency. The ideal ratio is for 3 coils 4 magnet sets for a lower "spin up speed". I used magnets that have a 87.6 lb of pull so I made a wooden template to hold them on the steel disk while the super glue dried and still got a few bleeders from snaps. Check your local autopart for the Locktite superglue, it comes in 3 viscosity and also in large format containers.

I used regular bodywork fiberglass sheets and resin.

Take care,

Michel

Edit: link to my Newman motor and alternator: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5287.0

Offline infringer

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2009, 05:32:43 AM »
Why must you use steel for the magnetic rotor why could you not glass the magnets right into the wood as they sit?

I am looking to have a 2ft magnetic rotor at the very least maybe even 32" rotor and my stator will have to match that or in pictures I have seen thus far be slightly smaller I wanna generate maximal power ...

I appreciate your help thus far but I guess I may be making things difficult but I don't care to use steel for a  magnetic rotor nor the stator I don't want any extra eddy currents from nothing just pure magnets anyhow I guess I will look more at otherpower as everyone keeps suggesting they seem to be advertisement and revenue based looking for cash cash cash ...

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2009, 05:32:43 AM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 06:03:16 AM »
Bridge rectifiers where can I find some dependable rectifiers and the other electronics I need to convert the 3 phase to DC and what exactly do I need could you provide me with parts and links for the electronics obviously I will need a charge controller to disburse the power from the rectifiers into the batteries but I guess I want to do this cheaply but provide maximal power output ...

GREAT HELP

I just ask that you do not give up and tell me to go elsewhere for info we need the information available here for everyone to see no hopping site to site lets streamline here!

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Offline infringer

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 06:14:16 AM »
here appears to be the wiring I guess phase wires will not really matter which number is which as long as you keep coil sets 1 2 and 3 together and hook it up accordingly but this seems to be a nice picture so far of the wiring required.

Other things to tackle are how to properly wind coils my guess is if you had 12 coils there would be 4 coils per phase to keep it a 3 phase setup. Just assumption here off common logic.

My other question is would you not be able to use 3 of these 4 prong bridge rectifiers to keep them cooler say one for each phase instead of how it is pictured or is it only possible to use two of these ?

Beautiful Newman replication to say the least as well!

Thanks in advance


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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 06:14:16 AM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 06:32:33 AM »
As far as the keeping the mags in place maybe if glue then glass or possibly use some screws along each side of the magnet or what about using magnetic shielding aluminum foil  or something IDK this does provide quite a risk to take on... there has got to be some way to assure that the magnets do not smack together they tend to bust when that happens at least from my expirence and being 145lbs of pull force it is a nice way to break a finger indeed... But I figure the stronger the magnet the better the power output good thing I did not go with them 300lb mags though the thought crossed my mind...

Offline Michelinho

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 07:10:24 AM »

Hi Infringer,

I am in no way an expert on alternator DIY but I'll try to answer a few of your questions.  ;D

Quote
Why must you use steel for the magnetic rotor why could you not glass the magnets right into the wood as they sit?

Placing a steel rotor behind your magnets, you get a more powerful magnetic flux between your facing N-S or S-N magnet poles. That I have checked with a Gauss meter. It helps to concentrate the flux between the steel plates and not all over the place.

Quote
Bridge rectifiers where can I find some dependable rectifiers and the other electronics I need to convert the 3 phase to DC and what exactly do I need could you provide me with parts and links for the electronics obviously I will need a charge controller to disburse the power from the rectifiers into the batteries but I guess I want to do this cheaply but provide maximal power output ...

In Canada, I get them from a reputable outlet,  http://digikey.ca/ the USA site is http://www.digikey.com/ . You could get them from EBay but you may get those from China and you may get crap. The rating depends on the maximum amp output from your coils or phases. They are not very expensive so why take a chance. If your alternator will output say 12V 120 amps in 3 phases, put a safety margin of 50% and go for 3 60 amps for a 3 phases setup. But by the size you mention, I would go for a 24V setup and you have to consider that for your charge controller and inverters and it will also reduce your wire size gauge from the windmill to the controller..

I bought my charge controller from EBay and got a nice Xantrex C60 (60 amps) 12/24V with the LCD display for $171.00 delivered at my place, saved over $100.00. The 2 inverters also come from EBay and are rated at 1800 Watts and a max of 3500 Watts MSW (modified sine wave not true sine waves $$$$) for $51.00 and $71.00 plus ~$15.00 shipping (I have a US shipping address).

Quote
Other things to tackle are how to properly wind coils my guess is if you had 12 coils there would be 4 coils per phase to keep it a 3 phase setup.

Mine is a 12 coils 12 phases as I use one rectifier bridge per coil and can later hook them in series or parallel or series/parallel to work with 12V or 24V depending on the speed the alternator will operate. For 12 coils there would be 4 coils per phase to keep it a 3 phase setup. That is right.

Quote
My other question is would you not be able to use 3 of these 4 prong bridge rectifiers to keep them cooler say one for each phase instead of how it is pictured or is it only possible to use two of these ?

As I said above, one for each phase is better plus you have to mount them on heat sinks as they get hot and they don't get a break when the batteries are full as your charge controller will divert your output to a resistive load which can be a 12V car heater or more to disperse the energy.

Quote
Beautiful Newman replication to say the least as well!

Thanks.

I'll try to help as much as I can but read the 3 pages from the link above, they have done many and are well done.

Take care,

Michel






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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 07:10:24 AM »
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Offline Michelinho

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 07:34:05 AM »


Re Infringer,

If you go for a Savonius design, you can use a carbon fiber, fiberglass or wood rotor as the coils are around the rotor. Not sure what is the minimum spacing of the magnets/coils though.

All of the above still apply, iron behind the magnets will increase the strength of the flux and give you more inertia in fluctuating wind.

Take care,

Michel

P.S.: In the study of the Bedini window motor, we found that all North or all South facing the coils produce more output. So experiment before putting the glue... The iron behind the magnets will be of help but put a wood spacer between the magnets and iron before the final setup.


Offline Michelinho

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 07:41:29 AM »

Re Infringer,

Wind your coils the bifilar way, 50% increase amp output for the same voltage.  ;D

Take care,

Michel

P.S.: Now you know as much as I do... LOL


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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 07:41:29 AM »
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Offline Michelinho

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2009, 06:12:19 AM »


Hi Infringer,

I checked the Savonius design and found this:

http://mb-soft.com/public/wind.html

What I Consider to be a Savonius Rotor!
Top View - Savonius (Drawing is a top view of a completed Savonius)

For these reasons, I tend to have a "lower-cost-approach" to wind-generated electricity! Specifically, there is one version of the Savonius rotor which is the ONLY one that I have ever built or used (maybe 15 or 20 of them over the years). When I refer to a Savonius Rotor, I therefore refer to ONLY the following: Get an old 55-gallon drum. Draw a line completely around it, to be able to saw it apart into two exactly identical half-drums (vertically). The two halves will then resemble two rocker baby cribs. I generally use a Sabre saw with a fine-toothed metal cutting blade, and it makes a LOT of noise!

The two halves are stood up (as though they were still actual drums) where their one cut edge is nearlly touching each other, but the two are facing opposite directions. You should see the INSIDE of one half drum and the OUTSIDE of the other, whichever side you look from. Then place a 36" length of 1x1x1/8 angle iron (or larger) on top of the two and across both. Drill some holes in the tops of the drum-halves and the angle, and use 1/4" bolts to securely attach the angle iron to the drum halves. I use lock washers to make sure the bolts will not loosen from vibration.

Flip it over and mount a second piece of angle iron on the other end of the drum-halves. THAT is pretty much it! How much did this cost? Well, I have always found drums for free, because a lot of people want to discard them. The angle iron and bolts might be around $4, so that is the total cost of the Savonius that I call a Savonius!

I generally drill a 9/16" hole through the very center of both the top and bottom angle piece. There can be merit in using slightly larger angle, as my holes drill away nearly the entire flange of the angle! But I then drive a length of 1" (or larger) water pipe into the ground, several feet. On the top, I get a pipe reducer down to 1/2" and I add a short piece of 1/2" water pipe, maybe a foot. I then get a 4 foot length of 1/2" solid steel rod. I put that rod into the 1/2" pipe at least 9 inches, and drill a small hole through the pipe and rod to secure it. Two might be better.

There is now the larger water pipe sticking up maybe 10 feet above the ground, with the 1/2" rod sticking about 3 feet above that. I then raise the Savonius assembly above it and lower the holes in the angles down over the vertical rod. I usually find salvage water pipe to drive into the ground, so this tower assembly often costs only around $5. The entire project therefore often costs around $10 total!

Yes, buying actual bearings can make sense, but this works fairly well as described, although it sometimes squeals due to metal friction! Given that the 55-gallon drum will likely only last two or three years before it rusts out, I found that my non-bearings never caused any of the angle irons to break from wear.

POINT: Since this entire assembly only cost me about $10, I never really needed massive amounts of electricity before it paid for itself! Since virtually NO other wind-generated electricity system has ever actually paid for its own cost, right there is a real advantage, the way I see it!

POINT: Since this Savonius and tower is so simple, easy, quick, and dirt-cheap to make, I tended to save up all the old barrels I could find, and convert them all into Savonius Rotors! Yes, there is a serious UGLINESS factor! (I did not have any close neighbors in any of three different locations I made them.)

Savonius We show another drawing here which shows both the benefit of a Savonius as well as its greatest disadvantage! The two lower arrows show the wind that is caught INSIDE the concave half of the Savonius, which then forces it to rotate around its central (vertical) shaft. This shows why it has such great torque, even at very low wind speeds.

The upper two arrows show the disadvantage. The oncoming wind hits the convex half of the Savonuis as well, and only its convex shape is what causes the air to be deflected sideways around it. If you think about it, the wind's effect on the two halves of the Savonius is not that different, same speed, same area, the only difference being the concave and convex shapes presented to the oncoming air. You probably see why a Savonius only has around 13% overall efficiency; much of the power that might be captured has to get used up pushing the convex half!

We will see below that such Savonius Rotors, combined with standard (used) GM car alternators, and the common 10 to 11 mph wind in the Midwest, can REALISTICALLY create maybe 7 watts (24 hours every day), then ten of these very cheap devices can produce 70 watts, or almost two kilowatt-hours per day. THAT is a useful amount of electricity! As long as you have lots of batteries to store it!


Not very efficient...

Take care,

Michel


Offline clflyguy

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2009, 09:09:05 PM »
Infringer-
  I see you started another thread, I will be glad to help you but the questions I asked in the prior thread still apply..
What size mags, how many, and what voltage battery bank?
  If you insist on the plastic barrel vawt then you are pretty much limiting yourself to 12 volts and about a 12" dia.
set of rotors and as Michelinho told you, you MUST put metal behind your mags to get any decent power at all. Preferably metal as
thick as your magnets are- there should be no magnetism available on the opposite side of the rotor thickness.
  You stated earlier that you wanted "maximal power" from this machine, well, you are already working against yourself by
wanting to go with a barrel vawt and wood magnet rotors.
  Also, Otherpower is NOT all about the money, I've been there for about 6 years and the stuff they sell is for people who are not
able/inclined/resourceful/intelligent enough to DIY. I have no doubt that folks on this board can help you, but if you want to build a wind
turbine, and build it efficiently and successfully then Otherpower is the site you need to be devoting your reading time to.
  Again, if harsh sounding then I apologize, but at this point re-inventing the wheel is completely unnecessary. If you would prefer that I not respond to your posts any longer, simply say so in your next post and I will respect it.       -CLFLYGUY

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2009, 09:09:05 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2009, 02:02:13 AM »
Are you crazy I don't take anything as a low blow here you have been nothing but helpful...

But explain to me why it is improper to use plastic?

Doesn't aluminum foil serve as a good shield for magnets as I have seen in several videos.

My magnets are http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_5&products_id=53 145lbs of pull force.

I am not trying to reinvent the wheel at all just trying to make the thing a bit lighter... So it turns more easily why do you believe that making it lighter in weight will lower the power production ? I don't understand that unless of course we are going to use a gearbox?

Please explain further obviously you know something about wind turbines as you explain I do want the proper research done before the investment as well that is always a must ...

Well I guess I shouldn't have said that otherpower is all about money we know that is not entirely true. They capitalize off of lazy people which is where most revenue is generated from... But they have been a favorite site of mine for the past couple years... And they go above and beyond any store indeed they share everything with you free of charge!!!

So I retract my previous statement and sub it with this one my apologies that may have been a bit harsh on my part actually...

I would like to get ahold of a steam engine and build that wood burning generator as well someday down the road...

Anyhow take care hope to hear from you soon.

I am curious as to where you are going  mentally with this design as well...
Maybe there is a flaw in not using metal but I always thought that steel never really severed as a good shielding for magnets anyways...


Offline clflyguy

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2009, 03:44:43 AM »
OK, sorry...I was getting the impression you didn't want to hear it..

  The reason for mild steel magnet rotor plates is that they complete the flux path of each of the magnets, it makes the magnetic field that passes over the coils several times stronger
than any other material.

 Aluminum foil as a magnetic shielding material, hmm.. wait a sec, let me check..... nope, just folded 2 square feet of alcoas best into a 1-1/4"x1-1/4" square  x 5/32" thick pad and my 1"dia x 1/4"
neo's just laughed at it. Lots of videos on the web have been faked- some of them are quite well done.

 OK, I just went to the mag website that you provided and saw that you have chosen excellent magnets, did you get 24 of them?

Weight- at this point you really have no cause to worry about weight, a few pounds one way or the other is not going to make any difference and this machine has to be
physically strong anyway just to survive in its natural environment- the wind, sometimes LOTS of it. As for starting easily, if your blades (or drums) are balanced well
and your bearings are aligned properly, not binding and are well lubricated then it will take no more wind to start a heavy machine than it will to start a light one.

Gearbox? Not on a vawt unless it's a BIG one, at least 3 barrels high.. Vawts make the best torque but swept area is still swept area, and you have good strong magnets....

Have you decided on a system voltage yet? I'm afraid that my mental image of what you want to build is on hold until I know a couple more things about what you want to do...

Tell me about your site, any height restrictions? In town, rural?      Lots of stuff goes into the mix and I do want to see you get the best you can for your area/price range/abilities.


Let me know....   


 



Offline Michelinho

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2009, 04:58:36 AM »

Hi Infringer and Cityguy,

Infringer, a heavy rotor helps smooth out the rotation specially when there is wind gusts, same as a heavy flywheel on the old one cylinder farm motors without it you would break a crankshaft in no time. It helps to protect the blades on a windmill from constant speed up and down. It also serves to maximize your magnetic flux where it counts and that is where your coils sit plus it smooths out your power curve.

Cityguy probably knows more than both of us together, so I may chime in from time to time but all I know, I have told you... I never made a windmill or studied much about it since I cannot install one that would be higher than my fence. I will make one this summer but it will be 4 to 5 feet high and sit on my rear porch and complement my motor/charger that is in the design stage now and solar panels. I am also planing a stationary bike small charger for my wife who likes to pedal while watching her soaps. So why not charge my many UPS batteries in front of the TV.

Take care both,

Michel




Offline infringer

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Re: Stator and Rotor how to make help needed!
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2009, 04:09:33 AM »
OK, sorry...I was getting the impression you didn't want to hear it..

  The reason for mild steel magnet rotor plates is that they complete the flux path of each of the magnets, it makes the magnetic field that passes over the coils several times stronger
than any other material.

 Aluminum foil as a magnetic shielding material, hmm.. wait a sec, let me check..... nope, just folded 2 square feet of alcoas best into a 1-1/4"x1-1/4" square  x 5/32" thick pad and my 1"dia x 1/4"
neo's just laughed at it. Lots of videos on the web have been faked- some of them are quite well done.

 OK, I just went to the mag website that you provided and saw that you have chosen excellent magnets, did you get 24 of them?

Weight- at this point you really have no cause to worry about weight, a few pounds one way or the other is not going to make any difference and this machine has to be
physically strong anyway just to survive in its natural environment- the wind, sometimes LOTS of it. As for starting easily, if your blades (or drums) are balanced well
and your bearings are aligned properly, not binding and are well lubricated then it will take no more wind to start a heavy machine than it will to start a light one.

Gearbox? Not on a vawt unless it's a BIG one, at least 3 barrels high.. Vawts make the best torque but swept area is still swept area, and you have good strong magnets....

Have you decided on a system voltage yet? I'm afraid that my mental image of what you want to build is on hold until I know a couple more things about what you want to do...

Tell me about your site, any height restrictions? In town, rural?      Lots of stuff goes into the mix and I do want to see you get the best you can for your area/price range/abilities.


Let me know....   


 




My place of residence is countryside there is a lot of pines but there is a lot of wind actually...
There is trees sparsely but for the most part there is about 4 acres of open area or more...

They are tall jack pines so lots of wind flows even through the woods...

Hrmmm shame I was hoping to get away from the typical honking metal disc simply cause stuff like that costs cash people don't like to give that stuff away and its like friggin treasure hunting with my population so it'd be better just to buy the stuff most likely ....

I want the cheapest setup I can find I am willing to spend cash on approxamately 3 good mk deka batteries or something for now sealed gel batteries obviously car batteries are no good for this stuff.

So this is what I know but I guess my plan is to start small and grow like the majority of us I'd prefer to start with one battery and work my way up personally just so I don't do overkill... But I wanna make sure my turbine can generate some good power and if need be I will build more and more untill I have the powa! :P

I guess I wanna do a mix of solar and wind and eventually be off grid but that is a long term goal.

29kwh per day avg this year so I have already cut down quite a bit in power consumption so if I read that right I use about 1.3kw every hour...

It is not half bad but if I could achive my goal I will be a happy camper eventually though I will need to grid tie everything as well which will result in losses so if I could achive say 3kw over the next few years that will be excellent indeed!

It may be cheaper to say purchase something ready made and just get it over with like a 5kw wind turbine I really don't know but I like the hands on experience as well though so ready made is kinda a last resort plus my budget is not thousands and thousands either...

I'll be lucky to have a thousand dollars total thanks to tax time...

Anyhow thanks again for the excellent info!!! Just keep with me I really need someone with your persistance to help me see this through do not give up on me...

Suggestions for these metal pieces would be nice as far as magnets I may need to order some more...
Barrels are kinda in the works a friend has a couple but they got some chemical in them that eats right through metal so that is rather scary to mess with that ...

I believe I may have about 10 -12 of them magnets if I recall correct... I may even have to purchase a tool or two as well to get the job done along the way but I have most of what I should need.

as far as welding I think I may have to outsource that to a good friend of mine he has access to a nice wire feed welder.
He'll do it for next to nothing I am sure anyhow thats about the max of my knowladge. Thats where I am the beginning stages the planning stages so what you help me with here is critical and will decide my purchases and where to get stuff the cheapest and what will be required.

Maybe I could have 3 rotors and stators one on the top one in the middle and one on the bottom. I don't want to do over kill either by causing lack of start up do to lack of torque this is why I was semi worried about the weight issue start up it takes more starting power the heavier you design the thing.

 

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