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Author Topic: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion  (Read 118767 times)

Offline queue

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2009, 07:15:15 PM »
Waiting for my Mylow stator mags to arrive i have reconfigured my disk to play with the original config ..
i have been moving the 4/3 section around a bit trying to get some rotation going ..

Still no luck with this config .. despite many hours of play.

Mylow if you're reading .. any ideas ? ?
Rotor spacing = 6 mill.

Heres a closeup of the 4/3 section on the disk ..

Cheers
Queue

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2009, 07:15:15 PM »

Offline queue

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2009, 07:16:49 PM »
View of the whole disk ..

Cheers
Queue

Offline Chase212327

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2009, 10:37:01 PM »
Here's the Relative Sizing and Spacing info that I developed and posted earlier (on the other thread from hell).

I think this is the best place to start for someone trying to replicate Mylow's first Running Motor.

Be sure your magnets are closely matched and spaced to these Relative measurements.  If you have magnets that fall far outside this Relative design, I believe you are outside of Mylow's margins, and embarking on something new, instead of attempting a true Mylow Running Motor replication attempt.

Chase212327

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2009, 10:37:01 PM »
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Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2009, 05:28:05 PM »

Here is the latest information on Mylow...if trure we should all be careful.

http://innersites.com/feet2fire/archives2009/media/twife.090405-low.mp3

Regards...


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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2009, 05:28:05 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2009, 05:30:24 PM »
@vince

Nice build. I like the paper clip idea and will try it also.

@all

It's good to have your systems migrated here from the other thread.

I am putting in two photos of my current wheel using the Pizza Pan. I used neos on top and bottom or neos just on top with hex bolts on the bottom to hold the mags in place. Works great and changing configurations is a breeze. Except when I hit my stator on them and they all fly off. lol

Anyways, this has taught me alot about the magnets since I cannot rely on the wheel mass as a major point of momentum, the fields using neos are very strong with very rapid accelleration but even then the sticky spot is so strong it is like a wall, even when I put a good distance between sets.

Last night I have been working in the open space between sets on various configurations, adding magnets is many ways to push the first magnets field of the second set away from the stator. I used a good sized piece of laminated transformer core with two round alnico magnets on the end and this worked the best and the stator was able to travel through the open spot but land too slowly in the second, so there is some possibility but I have to work more at it.

There are several threads on the subject of cancelling the sticky spot on the forum but we always run into the same problems. The field is all over. I have seen some Utubes on one guy that uses tin sheeting, etc., I purchased some flexible magnetic sheets and will try some, but I doubt it will work. I think the best way will be to use other other magnets to work against the sticky spot. Also, I have used some lamintated transformer core material that is giving not bad results. I guess it is simply sucking the field through the laminates, weakening it enough to be effected by my two alnico round magnets.

Today I will meet wit my metal shop friend and plan my aluminum wheel. Once I have the wheel I will be able to do the same neo mag tests as I did with this light pizza pan and compare the importance of having added momentum. This will be a good comparison, while I order my rotors.

When I get my rotors, all this sticky spot trials is supposed to be irrelevant, but still, nice to learn about. I am taking this one step at a time because I want to learn the maximum under varying conditions.

@cloud camper

You talked a few times about cancelling the B-field. But HOW? Do you know something we don't.

Offline wattsup

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2009, 06:13:19 PM »
Wow, I'll call him Bob Utah. He really made a nice build.

I don't know if sticking the rotors to the wheel with a glue gun can play against the effect or not, since the glue is pretty thick and may act as an isolator. Hmmmmmm.

Also, the rotors as shown are not identical to Mylows with the channel very small. This is why I have been "telling" abou tthe rotor and mainly also it lifting capacity to have some idea on Mylows. That information has not been given thus far and in my view is the only real reason I have been holding back on deciding which ones to order. I guess 1 to 2 lbs pull.

Sterling should have asked what the pull spec is on Bob's rotors.

Also, there is nothing that says the stator has to be in that particular position since if the rotor specs and field are not identical, maybe it is better for Bob to take the stator in hand and do some exploratory positions. But I am sure he did that already. I hope.

Well, one would expect that with such a fine build, that wheel should be turning, but something is not right. Yes the stator is wider then Mylows but again, there should be some better effect then what we have seen.

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2009, 06:13:19 PM »
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Offline Michelinho

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2009, 07:30:35 PM »
Hi wattsup,

Quote
I purchased some flexible magnetic sheets and will try some, but I doubt it will work.

When you get it, put your viewing film over it and you will see alternating strips of N-S-N-S etc... You use that film to mark and cut strips so you will get N on one side and S on the other side lengths. Using it as it come wont do.

Quote
Last night I have been working in the open space between sets on various configurations, adding magnets is many ways to push the first magnets field of the second set away from the stator. I used a good sized piece of laminated transformer core with two round Alnico magnets on the end and this worked the best and the stator was able to travel through the open spot but land too slowly in the second, so there is some possibility but I have to work more at it.

This is where the rubber magnet will come handy, you can glue a strip on the entry side with hot glue or other means and using the polarity needed to deflect or short out the unwanted sticky spot. I tried it last night on a round multi polarity used in floppy drives and it changed the whole aspect of the field. You can shape your fields easily that way.

If you would use the small "U" magnet on the periphery, I would then use very small neos inside or outside the "U" and see how the field change. The viewing film is not the holy grail but it does a fair approximation of the field size and strength. Too bad Gauss meters are so expensive.

Using Alnico or ceramic magnets to shape a field may be helped with cutting them at an angle or rounding off a side or sides like HJ did. You would need a water cooled ceramic tile cutter, if the magnet heats up too much you have to re magnetize them with a powerful magnetizer unit. Alnico 1, 2, 3 need 4,000 amp/turn/in  - Alnico 5, 6 need 6,000 amp/turn/in - Alnico 8, 9 need 10,000 amp/turn/in and ceramic 20,000 amp/turn/in. So definitely a professional unit*.

Take care,

Michel

Edit: A powerfull can crusher could also be used.

Offline Michelinho

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2009, 07:39:07 PM »


I should get about 27 lb of ceramic 8 magnets tonight and will do some more tests tomorrow or over the weekend.

I'll try to post some pictures of shaped fields.

Take care,

Michel


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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2009, 07:39:07 PM »
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Offline jimcreeper

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2009, 08:05:34 PM »
@queue

Your replication looks great! Good work.

Tausenti

Offline Michelinho

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2009, 08:06:35 PM »


Hi all,

Just did 2 pictures of the floppy round magnet with alternating fields all around.

The first picture is the unmodded fields and the second a strip of flexible magnetic strip applied inside the center along the periphery. Keep a strip handy to reset your viewing film by passing it over.

Take care,

Michel


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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2009, 08:06:35 PM »
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Offline neptune

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2009, 08:20:03 PM »
To those constructors having problems with rotor magnets flying off the disc. Why not add  some form of raised rim to the disc to back up the magnets. This could be thin plywood or plastic.

Offline robbie47

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2009, 09:31:55 PM »
@Michel:
How do you take such pictures?

Offline jester

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2009, 09:54:55 PM »
I ripped a magnet out of an old hard drive for a stator. It's curved and has a north south.at the ends. My best pattern so far seems to be.

a 3 - 2 then a 3 - 2 - 1 and then it repeats

S stands for a space and R for rotor.

R S R S R S S R S R S S R S S S R S R S R S S R S R S S S  pattern repeats


I mentions it cause there is a lot of odd numbers. Mylow had a lot of 3 rotors sets and 7 rotor sets on his wheels and closed off with an even number don't know if it means much. one last thing the hard drive magnet is a bit strange. by holding it and just changing the angle slightly there were a couple of times the wheel wanted to try and rotate in the other direction.(not flipping north south but by just changing the angle) Stator position and angles seemed to be important for me in the way it exited and enter the gate. Some form of adjustable stand for your stator might be worth the effort.

Someone else might need to confirm this my wheel is slightly warped. What seem to work best in working out my pattern was starting the wheel in the middle or a set or 2 before the middle in what ever rotors I had around the edge. It like the ends balance each other  and I could see a bit more clearly the effect of the pattern I chose. When I started it at the ends it looked like the pattern was a dud as I was building it till it started to get more than halfway around the disc. building a pattern from starting it at the ends all the time seemed to cause the wheel to slow down with the more magnets I added. When I worked from the middle( or a set or 2 before the middle) in finding my patterns adding more magnets did not seem to cause the slow down.

 :o :)


 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 10:15:21 PM by jester »

Offline Michelinho

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2009, 10:17:02 PM »
Hi everyone,

I do not want to sound negative but all I read and saw from people working on a Permanent Magnet Motor, in this thread or the others, are replication of designs that would not work or would work with limited power or duration. I have looked at rendering from many using sophisticated software like Vizimag, HFSS or other, and they don't seems to cut it basically because the software engineers or the reference works they use to code are WRONG for a PMM. They work for regular brute force motor or alternator which will never attain very low power for a high efficiency output.

WHY? That is what I will try to explain with my crude knowledge of magnets.

First the model of a magnet we use is wrong. A magnet does not have one field at one pole and another at the opposite pole and that is the model used for software as we have it now.

Second, very few persons know the work of Howard Johnson, much less understand it and no one applies it. Howard Johnson is "The Master" and understanding and applying the knowledge he gracefully gave us is "The Holy Grail" for PMMs. The other person who independently did conceived and wrote about, although his model is slighty wrong, is Joseph Newman but all he has shown us I have read about in early century books and magazines. But he was on the right way.

Let me summarize what he told us:

1- A magnet is composed of 2 poles, a South and a North pole.
2- Each pole emits 2 vortexes. A "South Pole"* vortex and a "North Pole"* vortex.
3- Each vortex of a common pole have a different strength.
4- The return path of magnetic vortexes in a magnet is situated roughly at the center of the magnet, not at the opposite end.
5- Given the "North" magnetic vortex a value of 100, he found that at the North pole of the magnet, there is a North* magnetic vortex with a value of 100 and a South* magnetic vortex with a value of 80, so we have a effective and shown North predominance.
6- Given the "North" magnetic vortex a value of 100, he found that at the South pole of the magnet, there is a North* magnetic vortex with a value of 100 and a South* magnetic vortex with a value of 120, so we have an effective and shown South predominance.

That is basically what Howard Johnson and another fellow, which I don't recall the name, measured with precision using state of the art instrumentation in I think 1957. Since then, with the blessing of the Academics and Regulatory brains, that knowledge has been buried and mostly forbidden in its use for academic teaching. That was 52 years ago and it is still under a load of denial.


That is all for now as I have to go rest my back.

Read and reread Howard Johnson's book “The Secret World of Magnets” until you understand this then start applying his knowledge to your Permanent Magnet Work.

Part Two will be on how to manipulate those vortexes to your advantage and get a greater chance of succeeding in your build of a Permanent Magnetic Motor. It can also be used to amplify the potential of anything involving magnets.

Take care all,

Michel


* Those vortexes are composed of CW spin particles and CCW spin particles. Which is which is not of much value here, those who want to get deeper in the subject should read “The Secret World of Magnets”.

 

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