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Author Topic: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion  (Read 127554 times)

Offline BEP

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2009, 04:17:51 PM »
Mylow's described attempt at using two stators is a classic mistake.

Having three stators spaced 120 deg. apart is not a solution unless the total rotor groups is an even number AND the asymmetrical rotor layout doesn't cause the same locking point - as if the total rotor groups were an odd number.

No magic there, just basic motor layout. The best thing to do is have one fixed stator and one adjustable in radial position. Moving it would be like twisting a car distributor to adjust timing.

Only two stators are need to prove the point. It may fire like a Harley V-Twin but nobody cares.

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2009, 04:17:51 PM »

Offline wattsup

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2009, 04:20:19 PM »
@all (sorry for long post)

I saw Mylows last Utube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3bReWmWwDE&feature=channel_page

And................ naturally our first instinct is to ask why in tarnation is he worried about simple stickies when he had a turning wheel. Here's the way I see it, and it is a damn shame.

Well first of all his present rotors are shot, and, he can't just sit still and wait for his next rotors and not do anything. So for the "first time" (now I don't know if it's the first time but if I judge from his astonishment at explaining a simple stickie, one would then ask, geez is this the first time he's used straight magnets), I think he has tried straight magnets. lol

@Sterlinga if you can find out if in his last video, was this the first time he ever used straight magnets or is the object of the video to give a Discovering Stickies 101 Course and he's been using them for years. Both ways is OK with me because I now know why his wheel worked and that is OK with me.

@Sterlinga also, once he noticed his wheel turning on it's own, how long after did he communicate with you. This is a very important question as it will give us more precise idea on the rotor/stator durability. We need some type of Mylow discovery time line.

If you build a unit, I don't care what type of pull, if you put a small motor on the wheel to turn it just a tad 1-2 volts, maybe 3. In time if the stator slowly loses its strength and the rotors lose their strength, eventually you should get to what I would call the Mylow Level of Magnetic Depletion (MLMD), (ya, I know it sounds crazy), meaning the magnets will lose just enough from both sides to eventually be able to turn on its own, because now for the first time, the wheel mass with mild momentum is stronger then the stickies. In Mylows videos, using the same components used by current builders, there is just enough to start the turn, get out of the sticky, enter a new segment and continue to build up momentum in the wheel and from there it is a growing process to it's maximum RPM.

Either that or we have to find a way to deplete rotor magnets, or order rotors that are already depleted, meaning they once had a pull and now have I would say 20% left. lol

Now if Mylow was putzing around with this wheel for years, this would mean that at the beginning when the magnets had stronger fields, his wheel did not work in this same configuration, just like ours. So he must have tried and tried and tried and tried again many variations. But while he tried, his magnets started losing strength until just recently when the wheel turned on it's own and today when they are just dead.

But again, Mylows last video is of such an elementary nature that I am more inclined to think that Mylow was not doing this for very long, and that his rotors and stator were already very weak and his results of wheel rotation where rather quick to show itself, and that now that his rotors are dead and he is trying other magnet types due to having some time on his hands, it is only now that he is really discovering the sticky spot. Sounds repetitive.

So I think this whole Mylow affair is based on dying rotors and stator showing this rotation effect in the hands of someone that did not have enough experience to realize what is happening and who is now stuck in a twilight zone between authenticity and fakery postulations. Yes it would seem like fake if you do not understand what is really going on. But if Mylow had done a standardized but crude pull test on his rotor and stator from day one, he would have been able to realize and roughly quantify the gradual drop in magnetism.

Why are the current builds not working. The only real variable is the relationship between rotor strength and stator/rotor positioning.

We can use a stronger stator and put it further away but then we lose the pinpointed or directed two rotor coverage and go to higher rotor coverages as we increase the length. Mylows last working video shows this where his nearly dead rotors were turning with a newly received stator that was placed further away then many here would have tried. If the new stator is as close as his original, the stators new nature and strength will over power the rotors near dead state. If you then just back the stator away from rotors a few inches, the stator is still too strong and now the active field size grows even more to cover more rotors while the stator field gets somewhat weaker on the rotors, and if you back the stator further out, you get to a point where the stator field curvature is at its edge and is probably just touching 2 or 3 rotors with the right strength to again produce a quasi mutual neutral zone where between these two neutralizing forces, again the wheel momentum can take advantage of the turning momentum.

So based on all this, I think the choice of stator and rotor has to be a simple math equation. If the new rotors are 1 lb pull, and the stator covers two rotors, then the stator should be 2 lb. pull if both the rotor and stator should have the same strength and thus provide the most neutral field possible where the wheel momentum can provide the excess gain. If you have a 12 lb stator, use 6 lb rotors. If you want the stator to be three rotors wide, then use 4 lb rotors. And so on.

But then in the equation the wheel diameter and mass will have to be taken into consideration. I would guess a 17" to 20" wheel should use 1-2 lb rotors and 2-4 lb stators, but as soon as you start using stronger rotors and stators, the wheel diameter and mass must increase accordingly since the potential delevopped neutral strength or mass interchange of mutual magnetic fluxes will provide differences in a scale from 0-1 and the differences would be in the .1 scale. meaning you will require more wheel mass to tear away from a neutral state produced by stronger magnet rotor and stators, even thought they are still neutral, there is more neutral mass flux to overcome with only the wheel momentum.

On my wheel with neos, they are 12 lb pull each, so imagine the pull strength of the stator would have to be 24, 36 or 48 lb pull depending on how many rotors the stator will cover. imagine the inter magnet stress involved if properly balance should make the wheel turn at a 1000 rpm easy. Hmmmmm how to find stronger pull in a compact size. This becomes the next dilemma.

I'll stop now. But I guess the main reason for this post is to say, that I would hope @sterlina will be able to gets some time line answers and if he needs a list of pertinent questions, just ask and I will prepare them during the weekend. I would hate to see Mylow be chastised because of our collective ignorance to the real facts, something that history has shown to be so true. I can only say that Mylow did the right thing is communicating with @sterlinga when he did. Any later and it was too late, effect is gone and we would have lost this opportunity to witness and learn more. So Mylow, I guess you are now member of the Standard Sticky Club. So let's make some more discoveries.

Offline ramset

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2009, 04:42:55 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2009, 05:19:12 PM »
@all (sorry for long post)

I saw Mylows last Utube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3bReWmWwDE&feature=channel_page

And................ naturally our first instinct is to ask why in tarnation is he worried about simple stickies when he had a turning wheel. Here's the way I see it, and it is a damn shame.

Well first of all his present rotors are shot, and, he can't just sit still and wait for his next rotors and not do anything. So for the "first time" (now I don't know if it's the first time but if I judge from his astonishment at explaining a simple stickie, one would then ask, geez is this the first time he's used straight magnets), I think he has tried straight magnets. lol

@Sterlinga if you can find out if in his last video, was this the first time he ever used straight magnets or is the object of the video to give a Discovering Stickies 101 Course and he's been using them for years. Both ways is OK with me because I now know why his wheel worked and that is OK with me.

@Sterlinga also, once he noticed his wheel turning on it's own, how long after did he communicate with you. This is a very important question as it will give us more precise idea on the rotor/stator durability. We need some type of Mylow discovery time line.

If you build a unit, I don't care what type of pull, if you put a small motor on the wheel to turn it just a tad 1-2 volts, maybe 3. In time if the stator slowly loses its strength and the rotors lose their strength, eventually you should get to what I would call the Mylow Level of Magnetic Depletion (MLMD), (ya, I know it sounds crazy), meaning the magnets will lose just enough from both sides to eventually be able to turn on its own, because now for the first time, the wheel mass with mild momentum is stronger then the stickies. In Mylows videos, using the same components used by current builders, there is just enough to start the turn, get out of the sticky, enter a new segment and continue to build up momentum in the wheel and from there it is a growing process to it's maximum RPM.

Either that or we have to find a way to deplete rotor magnets, or order rotors that are already depleted, meaning they once had a pull and now have I would say 20% left. lol

Now if Mylow was putzing around with this wheel for years, this would mean that at the beginning when the magnets had stronger fields, his wheel did not work in this same configuration, just like ours. So he must have tried and tried and tried and tried again many variations. But while he tried, his magnets started losing strength until just recently when the wheel turned on it's own and today when they are just dead.

But again, Mylows last video is of such an elementary nature that I am more inclined to think that Mylow was not doing this for very long, and that his rotors and stator were already very weak and his results of wheel rotation where rather quick to show itself, and that now that his rotors are dead and he is trying other magnet types due to having some time on his hands, it is only now that he is really discovering the sticky spot. Sounds repetitive.

So I think this whole Mylow affair is based on dying rotors and stator showing this rotation effect in the hands of someone that did not have enough experience to realize what is happening and who is now stuck in a twilight zone between authenticity and fakery postulations. Yes it would seem like fake if you do not understand what is really going on. But if Mylow had done a standardized but crude pull test on his rotor and stator from day one, he would have been able to realize and roughly quantify the gradual drop in magnetism.

Why are the current builds not working. The only real variable is the relationship between rotor strength and stator/rotor positioning.

We can use a stronger stator and put it further away but then we lose the pinpointed or directed two rotor coverage and go to higher rotor coverages as we increase the length. Mylows last working video shows this where his nearly dead rotors were turning with a newly received stator that was placed further away then many here would have tried. If the new stator is as close as his original, the stators new nature and strength will over power the rotors near dead state. If you then just back the stator away from rotors a few inches, the stator is still too strong and now the active field size grows even more to cover more rotors while the stator field gets somewhat weaker on the rotors, and if you back the stator further out, you get to a point where the stator field curvature is at its edge and is probably just touching 2 or 3 rotors with the right strength to again produce a quasi mutual neutral zone where between these two neutralizing forces, again the wheel momentum can take advantage of the turning momentum.

So based on all this, I think the choice of stator and rotor has to be a simple math equation. If the new rotors are 1 lb pull, and the stator covers two rotors, then the stator should be 2 lb. pull if both the rotor and stator should have the same strength and thus provide the most neutral field possible where the wheel momentum can provide the excess gain. If you have a 12 lb stator, use 6 lb rotors. If you want the stator to be three rotors wide, then use 4 lb rotors. And so on.

But then in the equation the wheel diameter and mass will have to be taken into consideration. I would guess a 17" to 20" wheel should use 1-2 lb rotors and 2-4 lb stators, but as soon as you start using stronger rotors and stators, the wheel diameter and mass must increase accordingly since the potential delevopped neutral strength or mass interchange of mutual magnetic fluxes will provide differences in a scale from 0-1 and the differences would be in the .1 scale. meaning you will require more wheel mass to tear away from a neutral state produced by stronger magnet rotor and stators, even thought they are still neutral, there is more neutral mass flux to overcome with only the wheel momentum.

On my wheel with neos, they are 12 lb pull each, so imagine the pull strength of the stator would have to be 24, 36 or 48 lb pull depending on how many rotors the stator will cover. imagine the inter magnet stress involved if properly balance should make the wheel turn at a 1000 rpm easy. Hmmmmm how to find stronger pull in a compact size. This becomes the next dilemma.

I'll stop now. But I guess the main reason for this post is to say, that I would hope @sterlina will be able to gets some time line answers and if he needs a list of pertinent questions, just ask and I will prepare them during the weekend. I would hate to see Mylow be chastised because of our collective ignorance to the real facts, something that history has shown to be so true. I can only say that Mylow did the right thing is communicating with @sterlinga when he did. Any later and it was too late, effect is gone and we would have lost this opportunity to witness and learn more. So Mylow, I guess you are now member of the Standard Sticky Club. So let's make some more discoveries.

A very intelligent post in my opinion. Congratulations.

I particularly liked the clever idea of driving the wheel with a motor until the magnets are virtually depleted. As I pointed out in the following post.....

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7039.msg166216#msg166216

.......one wants to cut out all but the first order interactions. Weakening the magnets does this, as of course does having a lot of separate groups, islands which cannot communicate with each other.

The final paragraph of my post was,

This would seem to be a case where small is beautiful. Size matters but in the inverse. The natural temptation to use more powerful magnets should be resisted. The discs should be as large as possible, the magnets as small and weak as possible consistent with the motor still working, obviously. One can then gradually increase each of the variables in turn until one generates a negative interaction and the motor stops working. In this way one will map out an operating envelope for the motor and determine which combination of variables gives most power, most speed, or whatever.

Your idea of working down is better than mine of working up. Its easier to weaken magnets progressively than to strengthen them progressively.

Offline jester

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2009, 05:25:42 PM »
Also see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6bE9TzetSA&feature=channel_page

@ Michelinho
Thanks interesting stuff

@ Lakes

That's pretty cool and I have just notice your other post in the other thread which I miss.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7039.msg170265#msg170265

on shielded magnets Lakes has posted 2 videos

Lakes posted (part 1) on other the thread another interesting one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BofO1S1937w&feature=channel_page

I am going to post part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsJsFK0-cqQ

If your build allows it (and you have a full circle up) could some do a simple test for me. Drop some square cake tins upside down (if you have some of different sizes) over the top of each other in the centre of the circle and tell me if it change the speed through any of your sets. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2009, 05:25:42 PM »
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Offline starcruiser

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2009, 06:09:31 PM »
@Queue,

We provide just enough energy to rotate the disk a few degrees. As yours shows, it rotates over half way.

Why can't folks understand what this means?

BTW: Excellent work. I'm seeing the same. Please don't try closing the magnetic rotor loop. What I found is when that is done there is at least one place where the polarity flips 180 deg. even though the magnet's polarity is the same all the way around.


@BEP,

Have you tried to flip one set of magnets polarity when closing the loop to see what happens?

Offline Justalabrat

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2009, 07:48:09 PM »

Well first of all his present rotors are shot, and, he can't just sit still and wait for his next rotors and not do anything. So for the "first time" (now I don't know if it's the first time but if I judge from his astonishment at explaining a simple stickie, one would then ask, geez is this the first time he's used straight magnets), I think he has tried straight magnets. lol

@Sterlinga if you can find out if in his last video, was this the first time he ever used straight magnets or is the object of the video to give a Discovering Stickies 101 Course and he's been using them for years. Both ways is OK with me because I now know why his wheel worked and that is OK with me.



@Wattsup

Here is Mylow playing with straight magnets:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK4PF4PgdoA&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Qyfhwd1kg&feature=channel_page


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2009, 07:48:09 PM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2009, 08:23:36 PM »
@BEP,

Have you tried to flip one set of magnets polarity when closing the loop to see what happens?

My loop problems are with any ring of magnets. If I install a symmetric loop of magnets, all with the same polarity, then place a compass at the edge while spinning, the compass will always find one point where it disagrees with the physical polarity.

I just tried flipping that one magnet. No joy. The reversal appears to be between the magnets.

I understood this before. I don't know why I made that mistake.

So I don't close the loop. I'm back to having separate groups that aren't talking to one another.

Offline cloud camper

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2009, 08:25:38 PM »
"This would seem to be a case where small is beautiful. Size matters but in the inverse. The natural temptation to use more powerful magnets should be resisted. The discs should be as large as possible, the magnets as small and weak as possible consistent with the motor still working, obviously. One can then gradually increase each of the variables in turn until one generates a negative interaction and the motor stops working. In this way one will map out an operating envelope for the motor and determine which combination of variables gives most power, most speed, or whatever."

Allright, finally we're on the right track!  This is exactly why HJ used huge rotors on some of his rotary
designs - to spread the field out so it doesn't all turn into one giant sticky spot.  This localizes the
reactions allowing the vortical spin fields to work without being overpowered by those useless B fields.
After getting something to work, THEN we can slowly increase magnet strength while adding permeability plates to sink the B field.  This will then maximize the short range vortical spin fields.

On my own rep I'm using a 36" rotor and constructing the rotor magnets from 4" tall bar magnets
with 1.7 lb pull here http://www.mcmaster.com/#5851k11/=1eg8vc  with 1006 steel extensions to form the C shape.  This is the lowest pull strength I can find and it might be too much!  Then I have a one
inch wide roll of mumetal to use as the permeability shield to go around the outside of the magnets
at top and bottom. Then another steel circular shield mounted underneath the rotor magnets and yet another circular steel shield to sit on top of the magnets.  This should nuke the B fields!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2009, 08:25:38 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2009, 08:37:45 PM »
"This would seem to be a case where small is beautiful. Size matters but in the inverse. The natural temptation to use more powerful magnets should be resisted. The discs should be as large as possible, the magnets as small and weak as possible consistent with the motor still working, obviously. One can then gradually increase each of the variables in turn until one generates a negative interaction and the motor stops working. In this way one will map out an operating envelope for the motor and determine which combination of variables gives most power, most speed, or whatever."

Alright, finally we're on the right track!  This is exactly why HJ used huge rotors on some of his rotary
designs - to spread the field out so it doesn't all turn into one giant sticky spot.  This localizes the
reactions allowing the vortical spin fields to work without being overpowered by those useless B fields.
After getting something to work, THEN we can slowly increase magnet strength while adding permeability plates to sink the B field.  This will then maximize the short range vortical spin fields.

On my own rep I'm using a 36" rotor and constructing the rotor magnets from 4" tall bar magnets
with 1.7 lb pull here http://www.mcmaster.com/#5851k11/=1eg8vc  with 1006 steel extensions to form the C shape.  This is the lowest pull strength I can find and it might be too much!  Then I have a one
inch wide roll of mumetal to use as the permeability shield to go around the outside of the magnets
at top and bottom. Then another steel circular shield mounted underneath the rotor magnets and yet another circular steel shield to sit on top of the magnets.  This should nuke the B fields!

Sounds rational. Good luck cc.

Offline carbonc_cc

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2009, 03:42:06 AM »
Based on my own testing, I noticed that as you add more magnet groups, the stator works less and less.

I have attached a drawing which I believe should overcome the "closing the loop" problem.  Going 3D instead of just 2D should remove the distorting effect of adding magnets on a single platter.

One might even try a double heliux pattern like that of DNA...  Sprial down

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2009, 03:42:06 AM »
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Offline queue

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #101 on: April 12, 2009, 04:58:20 AM »
Based on my own testing, I noticed that as you add more magnet groups, the stator works less and less.

Copy that ..
every mag array or smot i ever played with did same.

Cheers
Queue

Offline queue

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #102 on: April 12, 2009, 04:59:47 AM »
i finished building the 16.3 disk array today after the promising look it showed yesterday.
i posted two vids of the tests i did today . . but the news is not encourageing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W53meik-OB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK77eDMlWE4

This array 16 = (4*4)  * 3  acts like every other so far . . as you continue the build around the disk ..
i tried it in symmetry and not  4.4.4.4 + 4.4.4.4 + 4.4.4.3
there is less and less movement up until you close the loop .. once you do
there is not enough momentum to  break through the wall of repulsion sitting at the beginning of the next segment.

Every array i ever built to date has done this . .so far this one is no different.

Later this weekend i may build 16(4*4) in some other config.
If i understood one of Sterling's earlier posts he is sending Mylow some rotors that are same as mine
 
.. if this is the case and Mylow can get them to work then he can share the config with me so i can replicate it.

Early next week I will also have one of the same stators as Mylow if my shipping ETA holds up.

Yesterday i asked Mylow ( projectMagma )  to  look and comment on my videos .. big silence ..

Until there is a replication .. nothing here ..
move along

Cheers
Queue

Offline cloud camper

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2009, 08:22:58 AM »
"Based on my own testing, I noticed that as you add more magnet groups, the stator works less and less."

This is because each magnet group you add just builds a larger and wider composite B field.  The
stator will try and seek the point of maximum attraction or minimum repulsion, or the summation of both
using both poles of the rotor magnets in our case but will usually be in the middle of the array.  As you close the loop, the array goes dead as there is no point of maximum attraction or minimum repulsion.  There is still plenty of B field but you just poured molasses over the whole mess.  Isn't symmetry wonderful?

Offline robbie47

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #104 on: April 12, 2009, 09:46:30 AM »
Last night I stubled upon flux measurments that can be done quite easy by a using hall sensor.

Would it be an idea to put two hall sensors on the stator magnet, one at each end.
Voltage of these sensors could be measured by a sound card input (two channels) of a PC.
In this way one could easily get more insight in the field alteration of such setup.

p.s. I will do a bit more research later on to show how this can be done easiest.
( have to visit family today).

 

OneLink