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Author Topic: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion  (Read 125697 times)

Offline Grimer

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 08:21:27 AM »
Of course, gap reinforcement with multiple disks will only work if single row magnet interaction with the stator actually results in an energy gain. This could be proved very simply with a row of seven magnets, say, mounted on a pendulum and swung past a horseshoe stator situated at 6 o'clock. If the rise is more than the rise of a control with non magnetic dummies replacing the magnets then there is an energy gain.

The pendulum would have to be stiff in the lateral direction to keep the stator close to the north poles of the rotor magnet array.

Didn't someone mention an experiment along these lines where they did get a positive result?

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 08:21:27 AM »

Offline X00013

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 08:50:52 AM »
@Grimer,   This is about pendulums and magnets, i didnt check it all out  http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~norman/magwork.html

Offline Grimer

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 09:27:30 AM »
@Grimer,   This is about pendulums and magnets, i didnt check it all out  http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~norman/magwork.html

Thanks very much. When I went to save the file I found I already had it. ::)
Unfortunately he points out the flaw in his reasoning so it is not the proof we need.

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 09:27:30 AM »
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Offline jester

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 05:28:47 PM »
My thoughts on the replications as good as they are, is that they might be to precise. Mylow does not seem to be that type of guy.

From one of his video's looking at the sets before he gets it going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpQA5c9guvE&feature=channel_page


To me these rotors do not look precisely spaced.

his set of 4 rotors almost look like they have a slight arc inwards compared to the disc.

The other thing I am wondering about is could Mylow be tuning his gaps slightly with each set of rotors he adds to sync up to the wave he has shown. If you measured out your gaps and placed your magnets on a wheel. I am thinking you could end up being out of phase on more sets then you have in with the stator. So having more out of phase would give you a cancellation effect over your disc. Having more set in would give you a re-enforcing effect over your disc to cause it to spin. (64 million dollar question)

Wave vid if your one of the few who has not seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2VX89gJcbU&feature=channel_page

I am guessing the entry and exit magnet would be the most critical. half a millimeter left, right, in, out or slightly twisted on each of them would change were the wave is when you entered or exited a set ( again that's a question not a statement)




Offline mscoffman

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 06:33:53 PM »

If any replicator finds this stator magnet temperature decrease reported by Mylow,
could he please post a statement to that effect. I've been reading up on Gladolium
metal alloy magnetic refrigeration, the official version, which happens at a much higher
magnetization levels of about 2.0Tesla. Note that this standard method requires
bidirectional magnetic pulses. If this actually happens here then it means that the
rotor magnet spacing may be require to optimize magnetic cooling rather than just
rotor mechanical momentum acceleration.

Also, there is no guarantee that this presented motor design actually converts
temperature gradients into useful mechanical energy. It may just be happening,
and could be used to help power the motor. It is somewhat important not to listen
to those who think this temperature decrease is standard happenstance, especially
if it is of the magnitude reported by Mylow.

:S:MarkSCoffman

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 06:33:53 PM »
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Offline Michelinho

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 07:24:19 PM »


Hi mscoffman,

There is a magnetic pulsing that occurs but it is low, about 10 Hz. Each magnets as they pass the horseshoe magnet on the stator gets 4 pulses per rpm. If indeed the motor turns at 140 rpm, that gives 560 pulses per minute, so divided by 60 and you get close to 10 Hz which is very close to the Earth frequency.

My Newman motor when it was running with the 24 segments commutator was showing a slight decrease in temperature (estimated at about 4-5 degree below ambiant) and it was running at 100 rpm. So 100 rpm times 24 gives 2400 pulses per minute and a frequency of 40 Hz.

It is possible that the decrease in temperature has been greater but I don't know where it is coming from.

Take care,

Michel


Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 08:14:32 PM »
@all

To anyone able to try it with his already done Howard Johnson - Mylou replication.

I suggest just to make an extra stator identical as your first one, then find the exact center and put a bolt not tightened completely through both pieces, put the original stator on its usual place and find with the other the exact spot that makes the rotor spin faster without stopping.

It is not complicated and inespensive to try.

Jesus

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 08:14:32 PM »
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Offline sterlinga

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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2009, 05:19:07 AM »
Hi Wattsup,

I've posted a link to this replications thread from http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MYLOW:Replications

How about editing your opening post to include a linke to our replications index so they can cross pollinate and supplement one another?

Keep up the good work.

Sterling

Offline cloud camper

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2009, 07:36:01 AM »
Reposted here from the main discussion thread at the request of Wattsup:

"What's really whipping my butt is why the fellow inventors don't explain why it is working, rather than all the reasons why it couldn't possibly be working."

OK, Mylow is bummed cuz no one is coming up with theories why his motor is working.  I'll make a
stab at it.  Of course my theory closely parallels HJ's theory.

I believe HJ's main theory is the corner vortices.  He calls these spin fields.  The main idea to stress is
that the spin fields UNDERLIE, are MASKED, and are HIDDEN by the normal B fields.  The normal B fields are conservative and any implementation of them just results in symmetry.  HJ himself says "symmetry doesn't  work".

Johnson described several gate systems in his book "Secret World of Magnets" and all of them involved canceling out, sinking out or nullifying the normal B fields, then using the remaining spin fields to do work.  You can think of these spin fields maybe something like the curled up dimensions
commonly described in superstring theory.  They don't extend very far but they are asymmetric.

In the Stonehenge motor pic attached below, it is seen that the tall channel magnets are fixed to large
permeability  plates.  The magnets are attached S side down so the permeability plate sinks out most
of the S generated B field.

At the top of the tall channel magnets,  the N generated B field is also sunk by using large permeability plate surrounding the rotor magnets.  Now all we have remaining are the N generated spin fields, the opposing S generated spin fields are down and out of the way.

Then we have the stator magnet being curved with chiseled ends to try and get the stator B fields out
of the way and maximize the spin fields on the chiseled ends.  Notice that Howard is holding the
stator magnet up near the N end of the channel magnets.  The idea behind the motor is to sink out
the symmetric and conservative B fields and unmask the asymmetric and nonconservative spin
fields.  This is why every rotor magnet on the gate is N facing.  Individual spacing is not that critical,
but just requires that the stator maintain momentum until encountering the next spin field.

My machinist and I built a test gate over the weekend and noticed that while there was always a
repulsion hill at the entrance to the gate, it didn't seem to matter whether we used 7 magnets or
18, the stator would propel merrily along to the end of the gate and then begin to coast with no
back attraction.

It could be fortuitous that Mylow's magnets were so weak as I believe he said that he had purchased
them some 20 yrs ago and they had been left in a drawer until now.  This possibly had the effect of
diminishing the B fields to the point they did not need permeability plates to demonstrate the effect.
Anyway, just a preliminary theory.  As  we all know, the devil lies in the details!

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2009, 07:36:01 AM »
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Offline queue

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2009, 08:32:53 AM »
Reposted here from the main discussion thread at the request of Wattsup:

@cloud camper. .
@Grimer
good info thanks guys :-) 

going to regap my stator to match rotor under stator ratio of Mylow.

my rotors are 9 mil width .. my preferred current stator is 32 mil- mouth wide .. so i figure my rotor gap might be better @ 6 or 7 mil ..

i ordered Mylow stators today - eta 4 to 7 days .. i think my rotor magnets are more powerful than his so i would guess my gap is bigger as a result..

If this thing can be replicated .. lets just do it  .
I found Sterling's latest post comments here quite encouraging ..

So Mylow ..
any help you feel like giving .. much appreciated :-)
i have not given up yet !
Lately there is not enough time in a day for my liking.
Burning the midnight oil as they say but i am having fun ..

Magnets are cool ! 
Queue

Offline wattsup

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2009, 03:06:50 PM »
In my view, what the @LightRider (big thanks) graphs on the other thread show is exactly what the magnet can only do and that is react to a changing impulse coming from the attraction and repulsion and this develops a changing cadence that the natural magnetic environment is able to afford given their varying distances. A non symmetric disposition of magnets will produce a fluctuating rotation and that is all I can accept at this point.

But here is something else I have learned with my own wheel. Of course this applies to my testing with neos magnets having a massive 12lb pull but in general this should also apply to channel magnets.

Magnets are smart little buggers. They always have an answer to how they will react. I think they actually morph under varying circumstances because the N/S fields just intermix like too pools of water joining to make one bigger pool. Or they will change one polarity from each magnet that is stuck at that point to become a mutual blotch wall.

I was able to make a rotor set with a maximum of 8 magnets and still have the stator pass through it. So naturally one would surmise that if this 8 magnet set was repeated all around the wheel with spaces in between, each set would provide some positive propulsion and the wheel should turn. But no it does not. As soon as the circle of magnets is made, the individual sets of 8 lose something or put another way, it is as if the completed circle of segmented magnet sets now becomes ONE as if the whole circle becomes a magnetic toroid and the stator cannot find any forward position. The only way to solve this is to increase the space in between each set of 8 in order to break the magnetic loop. But then, the wheel circumference having a maximum limit means to increase inter-set spacing, you have to cut the number of total sets. You then get to a point that there is not enough sets and too much open spacing. I think Mylow, after many trials has come to the point that in his wheel, and given his particular rotor magnet strength, came up with the last 7/7 + 1/6 sets as his last trials. He screwed up. He should have left his wheel as is with the 3 set - 6 set.

WARNING: If you every have a fully rotating MylwoHJ Wheel........... DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING!

Noticed this also. As you add more and more rotors to a set, at one point the set changes (or morphs) and you get a center blotch wall developing with the field traveling out from the center in both directions. As if there is a limit to how far you can stretch a field by adding more and more magnets. This is probably because as you add magnets to a set, the whole field grows further outward from the first and last magnet further out into the no rotor zones. This stretches out the rotor sets unified field and by doing so this also stretches out the center blotch wall which is a very bad thing to have when making a Mylow Wheel.

Another thing I have noticed. Spacing between each rotor in a set should not be pre-calculated or deduced by looking at other wheels. Since the norths/souths are all placed the same way, bringing two rotors together will create a mutual repulsion. I have found that if you place the rotors close enough to feel the repulsion, then that is the distance you need between the rotors. For stronger rotors this distance will be greater then when using weaker rotors. By doing so you are creating with a set of rotors a type of linear catapult. That catapult energy is transferred to the wheels aluminum mass as inertia and it is this inertia that is turning the wheel strong enough to enter the next rotor set.

Based on this and on how Mylow managed to get his last video rotors so close together, I would say his rotors have a maximum of 1 to 2 lbs pull strength. With rotors that size, if they were 12 lb pull, he would never have been able to bring them that close and then glue them to their positions, and then hoping they would hold.

Look at HJ's Rotors. They are very big, must have alot of flux and imagine putting two norths that close together how much repulsion is being generated between them.

Well at least I am learning about magnets. There are things here that you will never realize if your were making a magnet wheel that is motor turned. You do not give the same amount of thought to such wheels as you have to with all magnet systems. lol

I read somewhere that HJ also used some flexible magnet material. Probably to make a crude magnetic shielding to try and cut the stickiest points.

Now that I have tested with neos and learned alot, I will make a solid aluminum wheel, order some rotor magnets and a few stator magnets. But the only real way we will learn more about this wheel is if the rotor magnets can be secured to the wheel without gluing so inter-spaces can be adjusted quickly to do many many tests. I can understand the hardship of gluing magnets only to have to take them off and re-glue then each time would be very difficult, tedious so I will try and make a special bracket/screw arrangement and have a special grooved edge on the wheel so I just loosen a screw to move a rotor in the groove and secure it again. That would be the ideal testing wheel for me.

So more testing and learning for me before I can see this thing clearly as it is.

PS: Regarding the MIB thing, I don't know if it is real or not, but if it was, I don't think they are worried about the wheel in itself, but the many things we will learn while making the wheel. lol

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2009, 03:06:50 PM »
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Offline slapper

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 04:09:18 PM »
Thank you cloud camper. I have been trying to figure out how to describe how Howard Johnson's theories relates to Mylow's motor. You have done it better than I can.

I've been playing around with the idea of perhaps placing some material behind one of the poles of the horse shoe u stator magnet to get a handle at tuning this thing. Pure speculation at this time.

Thanks again wattsup and thank you cloud camper.

Take care.

nap

Offline queue

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2009, 06:01:53 PM »

Magnets are smart little buggers. They always have an answer to how they will react. I think they actually morph under varying circumstances because the N/S fields just intermix like too pools of water joining to make one bigger pool. Or they will change one polarity from each magnet that is stuck at that point to become a mutual blotch wall.


Good observations .. i noticed very similar results when building the 3 6 set the first time. As i would add each new array segment to the rotors circle it would change the behavior of the whole loop group.. right back to the start position .. very frustrating and not NEW to me.

Building the Archer Quinn arrays it was exactly the same thing - the array would work one way up to a point and then change as i added magnets near the end to close the loop. In every mag array or smot that i ever constructed..  movement would slow down as the loop got near to close. It 's almost as if the magnets know what you are trying to do and react accordingly to stop you ..

Of course this is not in fact true but calling them smart little buggers certainly makes sense to me after having played extensively in their fields. While waiting for my new stator mags to arrive this week i am rebuilding the 3 six arrays to see if i can reproduce more accurately Mylows config with my mags .. 

Update from me soon ...

Offline cloud camper

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2009, 06:42:29 PM »
"Building the Archer Quinn arrays it was exactly the same thing - the array would work one way up to a point and then change as i added magnets near the end to close the loop. In every mag array or smot that i ever constructed..  movement would slow down as the loop got near to close. It 's almost as if the magnets know what you are trying to do and react accordingly to stop you .."

This is just symmetry being displayed from the B fields.  It will be necessary to sink the B fields with
permeability plates to get them out of the way just like HJ did.  Any cogging or sticky spots indicate
that B fields are still in play.  The real movers are the vortical spin fields which are asymmetric.  The
spin fields do not have sticky spots.  Of course I haven't accomplished this quite yet myself ............

We know HJ's Stonehenge motor worked.  The USPTO refused a patent until they had a working
demonstrator.  Then he got his patent.  Why not try it the HJ way?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 07:33:01 PM by cloud camper »

Offline Fred Flintstone

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Re: MylowHJ Replication - Discussion
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2009, 06:43:51 PM »
@queue & @wattsup

If you can get a single segment of rotors to work...then instead of completing the circle, which changes the behavior of the group....complete the circle on a separate disk. In other words, if there are 6 sets of segments, you would need 6 separate disks stacked about 6" apart to a single axle and 6 separate stator mags. Obviously quite a bit of work. But, I actually think this is a moot point since I doubt a single segment even works. Have you ever got a single segment to start outside of the the stator, move into it and then exit without helping it along?

Fred

 

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