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Author Topic: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation  (Read 23031 times)

Offline Doctor Whodini

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Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« on: February 01, 2006, 09:37:33 PM »
Hello all,

Fig. 6 show the detail of the Coefficient of Performance (COP) calculation:
http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/SparkGapExp/SparkGapExp.htm

My conclusion is the Carbon arc is performing as a NEGATIVE resistance-like device. The bottom line is that there is MORE energy charging up the capacitor C1 with the spark gap than without the spark gap. Therefore, the Carbon arc looks very promising as providing excess energy, once properly harnessed.

Bill

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Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« on: February 01, 2006, 09:37:33 PM »

gn0stik

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2006, 12:44:59 AM »
Uhh, all due respect Bill, but arent you just showing an energy gain? I mean, all your doing in those experiments is showing the result without the spark gap and then with the spark gap, showing a gain in efficiency. That's great and all, don't get me wrong, but in your COP calculations you use the "without spark gap" measurement as Ein, and "with a spark gap" as Eout. That would only be true if the wimshurst was ALREADY 100% efficient without the spark gap. What you need to do, it would seem to me, is turn the crank on the wimshurst with an electric motor and show Ein as the input power to THAT motor, in Joules or Watts. Then compare it to your Eout.

Just an observation. If I'm misinterpreting your tests, please disregard this, after, of course, you tell me what I'm missing. :)

Regards, Gn0stik

Offline Doctor Whodini

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 04:46:32 PM »
Keep in mind, I'm simply measuring the "energy" output of a Wimshurst generator plus the Carbon Arc vs. the "energy" output of a Wimshurst generator. In terms of energy, the calculation is very straight forward, and reveals the Carbon Arc is without question, "overunity"!

The "efficiency" of the Wimshurst generator plays NO role in this calculation.

I will be showing this experiment at the upcoming Tesla Tech 2006 conference end of July!

Bill

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 04:46:32 PM »
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gn0stik

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2006, 07:40:57 PM »
Oh, my mistake. You're Ein, is Ein to your spark gap circuit, NOT Ein to the device as a whole. I knew I was missing something simple. Thanks for correcting me. Maybe one day we'll have a solid state OU device. How amazing would that be?

This is interesting.

Just for my own curiosity, what are you turning the WH gennie with to ensure consistent speed?  What is the rate of decay of the rods? Would a normal transformer work, or is the tesla one vital? What is the out put of the WH when connecting a voltmeter directly to it's posts?

« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 08:27:38 PM by gn0stik »

Offline magnetoelastic

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2006, 07:21:22 PM »
Your assumption is that Ein is constant regardless of whether the carbon spark gap is present in the circuit or not.  Unless you can measure and prove this assumption, your calculations of power gain are speculative at best.

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2006, 07:21:22 PM »
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Offline magnetoelastic

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2006, 07:24:54 PM »
For example, I can measure the output voltage of an unloaded neon sign transformer.  Then, by adding a capacitor of a few hundred pF, across the output, I can measure the output voltage to have significantly increased.  If I assume that the Ein is constant in this case, I can conclude that the capacitor is OU, where, in reality, it is just resonating with leakage inductance of the transformer to allow the AC mains voltage to more effectively deliver Ein.

Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2006, 01:26:46 AM »
I have to agree with Magneto (partially) on this one.  But keep in mind that no one is shooting anything down... this forum is heavily "peppered" with tangents that are counter-productive - caused by the inability to see that asking questions is the very heart of experimentation.

To whodini -  Showing more energy out with one circuit compared to another proves only one thing for certain - efficiency.  Quesitons that seek to validate the amount of energy in are valid... But, something I've discovered is that no matter how you measure it... it will never be good enough for some. :)
Personally - I believe the coincidence is too great.  Energy is all around us - witness lightning.   And what is a spark gap, but lightning?  A potential difference creates the path in the air gap via ionization... just like streamers in a lightning storm.  You are definitely on to something.

To Magneto - a WH Gen. is not the same as a transformer connected to the grid.  The comparison is apples to oranges.  But - I'd like to hear some basis for the argument that the circuit is simply pulling more power from the WH.  Maybe you can give us insight on how to ensure equal input to both circuits?

 


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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2006, 01:26:46 AM »
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Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2006, 01:46:58 AM »
Why not charge the capacitor with the generator... and then move that charge through the test circuits and measure the result?  That would ensure the Ein was the same for both circuits.  Should be simple (and satisfying one way or the other) to all.

Offline magnetoelastic

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2006, 03:03:32 PM »
I would also suggest a few modifications to the experiment - try to determine if it is the carbon/tungsten combination that produces your boost in output, or just the spark gap.  Substitute your carbon rod and/or tungsten rod with a different material, say, brass or stainless steel, and see how that affects your result.

To measure Ein, you would probably need to place a torquemeter on the WM.  The torque needed to turn it will be a function of its power output (though I am guessing the WM efficiency is VERY low).


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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2006, 03:03:32 PM »
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Offline Doctor Whodini

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2006, 07:28:16 PM »
My proof is the difference in output energy. Thats what counts.

Bill

Offline Doctor Whodini

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2006, 07:35:30 PM »
Elvis,

I don't agree with Magneto because I'm NOT looking at voltage or current or power, but energy. This is energy charging up a capacitor for a fixed amount of time. Energy is a different ball game than just looking at voltages or currents or power. There's MORE energy charging up a capacitor using a Carbon Arc.

I will go through this step by step at the Tesla Tech show.

Bill

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2006, 07:35:30 PM »
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Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2006, 11:44:13 PM »
I do understand what you are showing - and you do show more energy with the spark gap.  We could assume that if the results are the same everytime and that the experiment was run 100 times... that it's pretty solid.
Any ideas on why this works this way? 

Offline Doctor Whodini

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2006, 03:46:05 PM »
Elvis.

I may have run the test 99 times. :-)

Actually, I ran the test suite over a dozen times for each, then averaged. I saw very little variation in the final accumulated voltage. The length of time was fixed at 15 seconds for each test. In other words, how much energy can be accumlated in a capacitor for a 15 second period. And keep in mind this is REAL energy!

This seems pretty clear to me. Running the generator with a Carbon Arc spark gap accumulated MORE energy during a 15 second period than without. Results speak for itself.

Now, the question I have is Carbon being consumed in this process? Is Carbon a fuel source? There are some that think not, and that a ZPE or active vacuum energy exchange is occurring. Until more data comes in, I would tend to agree with this explaination.

Bill

Offline kcarrigan

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2006, 05:30:25 PM »
Few observations. Are not Wimshurst generator's electrostatic? So that they produce DC static, not AC? Thus if your circuit uses bypass capacitors, DC does not pass through. When using a spark gap, it then produces AC and easily passes through bypass caps? Also the 'Telsa' type transformer maybe more efficient in higher HF frequencies then lower frequencies, and the spark gap, which produces more HF frequencies will transform more power( voltage) then at lower frequencies. I don't think your setup in ARC verus non ARC really addresses all the many variables which are associated with non-arc verus arc.  You may want to measure with a oscope the differences, and even use a network analyzer to see how efficient your Tesla transformer are with respect to frequency. You may find that they are most effecient at HF frequencies.

Just some comments.. Great to see experiments!
Keep rolling!
Ken

Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Carbon Arc Spark Gap COP Calculation
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2006, 07:09:21 PM »
The spark gap could produce enough wave to cause more induction in the transformer.  I think that's what magneto was driving at earlier.  The extra energy could be there in both setups... but only passes when the current is alternated by the spark gap.


 

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