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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 677780 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1320 on: May 09, 2009, 02:23:49 AM »
Let me be more specific, although I've already said it. Your analyses of the wm2d results are more or less a guessing game, indirect deductions. The only rigorous methodology you've proposed is outside of wm2d and that still remains to be applied onto a proper model. Besides, when applied onto a proper model the results from its application have to be in harmony with the already so much mentioned discrepancy in the position of the pivot and the mass center. If the torque analysis deviates from what follows as a result of said discrepancy, the latter takes precedence and the torque analysis should be deemed flawed.

We should really try to agree on simple yet rigorous criteria and not beat around the bush using semantics or indirect signatures. One such very simple but reliable criterion is whether or not the two centers (axis and mass) coincide. Never mind anything else that the program calculates. If these centers are correctly placed by the program (as they seem to be) at the different moments of turning of the wheel and if they always stay sideways to one another at any position of the wheel, that's a definitive proof that the device is a perpetuum mobile. Interestingly, that's exactly what's observed with the model of Abeling's device.

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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1321 on: May 09, 2009, 02:51:54 AM »
You don't get it Omnibus,

The mere fact that your so called centre of mass is on the right hand side and your rotation to the left, as you have already noticed, must indicate that there is something wrong with the simulation. This simply cannot happen in the real world. If the centre of mass was accurate the wheel should turn in the opposite direction.

QED

Hans von Lieven

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1322 on: May 09, 2009, 02:58:47 AM »
You don't get it Omnibus,

The mere fact that your so called centre of mass is on the right hand side and your rotation to the left, as you have already noticed, must indicate that there is something wrong with the simulation. This simply cannot happen in the real world. If the centre of mass was accurate the wheel should turn in the opposite direction.

QED

Hans von Lieven

It's exactly the opposite. The center of mass is calculated correctly by the program (which is proven in several ways, as I already explained) but the rest of the calculations are messed up by the program. The fact that the program messes up the rest of the calculations is a moot point, as I already said, because the most important calculation -- the position of the center of mass -- the program does well. I already explained that. The conclusion is that the model of Abeling's rig is a perpetuum mobile at least in the ideal case.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1322 on: May 09, 2009, 02:58:47 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1323 on: May 09, 2009, 03:09:44 AM »
One may not even bother with clicking on Run in wm2d. The only thing necessary is to have system center of mass turned on by going to View>System Center of Mass. One also doesn't need the ramp. Just the slotted wheel and the spheres, positioned where they would be if the ramp were present, is enough for the conclusion (the ramp, by the way is very light and practically doesn't contribute to the calculation of the center of mass). This can be repeated for different positions of the wheel within its full turn only to observe that the center of mass is positioned always sideways to the pivot. That clearly is a proof that the device is a perpetuum mobile. Simple but categorical criterion.

This is a simple tool which can also help us in making the device more efficient by reshaping the track (ramp) so that it will keep the spheres at positions such as to ensure maximum deviation between the pivot and the mass center.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1324 on: May 09, 2009, 03:13:00 AM »
This idea is nothing new. A while back there was the Andy motor. What this guy did was actually rather clever. Rather than having the weights run in a slot he made an iron hoop in which magnetic rollers ran instead of weights.

Below is an animation of the principle and a photo of an actual replication. They never did get it to work.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1324 on: May 09, 2009, 03:13:00 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1325 on: May 09, 2009, 03:20:35 AM »
That isn't the case here. Recall that a device with forced trajectory doesn't work (see attached). Spheres really have to have more degrees of freedom for the pivot-mass center shift to be in effect. Not even all ramps yield working models. This has to be studied more now that we know that perpetuum mobile is possible in principle.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1326 on: May 09, 2009, 03:24:15 AM »
It's exactly the opposite. The center of mass is calculated correctly by the program (which is proven in several ways, as I already explained) but the rest of the calculations are messed up by the program. The fact that the program messes up the rest of the calculations is a moot point, as I already said, because the most important calculation -- the position of the center of mass -- the program does well. I already explained that. The conclusion is that the model of Abeling's rig is a perpetuum mobile at least in the ideal case.

I know what you are doing wrong, You take into account only the position of the weights relative to the fulcrum. Of course you get a permanent imbalance, What you are ignoring is the energy required to force the weights into an elliptic orbit around the fulcrum. Once you add that in you will, in an ideal system, find balance. Add in friction etc and you have loss.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1326 on: May 09, 2009, 03:24:15 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1327 on: May 09, 2009, 03:34:16 AM »
I know what you are doing wrong, You take into account only the position of the weights relative to the fulcrum. Of course you get a permanent imbalance, What you are ignoring is the energy required to force the weights into an elliptic orbit around the fulcrum. Once you add that in you will, in an ideal system, find balance. Add in friction etc and you have loss.

Hans von Lieven

No, no, we're discussing an ideal situation. No resistance, only masses and gravity. It's a perpetuum mobile, no doubt about that.

I should've probably worded the previous post differently: Any device (Abeling's, Andy's whatever) which has non-coincident mass center and pivot and the former is at all times positioned sideways, is a perpetuum mobile and should work in principle. The way any patent for an internal combustion engine should represent a working machine. However, in reality very few are reallyworking due to numerous purely engineering problems. Same here. If a device having the said permanent discrepancy cannot be made to work, the problem is a purely engineering one and depends on the skills of the person who manufactures it. Simple as that.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1328 on: May 09, 2009, 03:37:32 AM »
In an ideal system a pendulum is a perpetuum mobile.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1328 on: May 09, 2009, 03:37:32 AM »
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Offline Dusty

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1329 on: May 09, 2009, 03:49:27 AM »
Now I have the frame finished and the wheels mounted.  Next I need to build all the new dumbells and build the tracks.  I'm going to try and design a track system using steel instead of the plywood.  All this work will take me about a week to finish.

I took all the best of the best of the smaller wheel and am putting all that into this newer bigger design.  If it eventually works, well great, but if it doesn't I'll rebuild and try again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzaf_mmsUak

Dusty

Offline Tink

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1330 on: May 09, 2009, 03:54:15 AM »
WOW!!!

Looks great Dusty!

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1330 on: May 09, 2009, 03:54:15 AM »
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Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1331 on: May 09, 2009, 04:00:57 AM »
Rigorous?

RIGOROUS?

Yet everytime I follow the same methodology.  The same methodology.  The same methodology.

And each time I see the sim resolve to the expected results.  The expected results.  The expected results.

And so I say again:  WM2D works fine, within it's known limitations, and always (ALWAYS) has predicted the correct real world results.

And now when I do a simple static analysis of the torque balance you question that?  And say I do not consider things that are absolutely NOT relevant?

Is this a case of, "He cannot see the forest for the trees?"

I do not know.  But I grow weary of the debate:  I try all of your tests.  You ignore all of mine.

It is like your first instinct is to argue, or contradict, rather than understand.  Or maybe its just me...


Mondrasek,

No, it is not just you, but congratulation, I was wondering how long it would take you to understand. You are a good knowledgeable man and you tried your best to past on your knowledge, but it is truly like spitting into a headwind with the constant inane rambling in this case.

Regards, Larry

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1332 on: May 09, 2009, 04:03:32 AM »
Looks really great Dusty !

Hopefully you will get it to run !

Good luck !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline overtaker

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1333 on: May 09, 2009, 04:11:53 AM »
OUTSTANDING Dusty.  Great craftsmanship.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1334 on: May 09, 2009, 05:22:53 AM »
In an ideal system a pendulum is a perpetuum mobile.

Hans von Lieven

No, it isn't. If that were the case then even a balanced wheel would be a perpetuum mobile but it isn't.

 

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