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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 667501 times)

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1305 on: May 08, 2009, 10:28:04 PM »
Which simulation are you talking about Omnibus, I would like to have a look at this.

Hans von Lieven

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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1306 on: May 08, 2009, 10:32:18 PM »
That one similar to what we already spoke about (see attached).

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1307 on: May 08, 2009, 10:41:02 PM »
I thought so, I was just making sure we are talking about the same thing.

In WM2D you do not get a centre of gravity as such. In some simulations you can, but not in this one. WM2D gives you the "System centre of mass" which is not the same thing, since it includes the mass of your ramps, hence the discrepancy.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1307 on: May 08, 2009, 10:41:02 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1308 on: May 08, 2009, 10:46:03 PM »
I just did a quick sim to show you what I mean. Have a look at where the system centre of mass is on this one.

Hans von Lieven

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1309 on: May 08, 2009, 11:04:00 PM »
The center of mass of the wheel and weights (guide ramps not included) in the sim I analyzed is directly below the axle.  That is why the wheel stops there.  That is the keeling effect.  This off center CoG is allowed by the slop in the guide tracks.

If the guide tracks were made so that they were only the width of the weight spheres (no slop) the center of gravity of the system would be coincident with the axle.  And it would not settle at any position.

How did I find this equilibrium position?  I turned off the material frictions, cranked up (lowered) the time step and integration error, added minimal overall dynamic friction in the form of "air resistance" and let it run!  It worked perfectly.  It gave the correct result.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1309 on: May 08, 2009, 11:04:00 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1310 on: May 08, 2009, 11:12:30 PM »
I thought so, I was just making sure we are talking about the same thing.

In WM2D you do not get a centre of gravity as such. In some simulations you can, but not in this one. WM2D gives you the "System centre of mass" which is not the same thing, since it includes the mass of your ramps, hence the discrepancy.

Hans von Lieven

Remove the ramps and try it. Center of mass is still to the right. In that respect your wm2d example doesn't apply.


Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1311 on: May 08, 2009, 11:41:03 PM »
Let the sim run and settle to it's equilibrium point first using the prescribed methodology and THEN check the center of mass.

Notice that I did not analyze the sim you gave me in it's current starting condition because that was not the equilibrium position.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1311 on: May 08, 2009, 11:41:03 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1312 on: May 08, 2009, 11:52:27 PM »
Omnibus, do you see that when these sims do not act as expected I look for errors in the analysis?  And everytime the sim does not behave as expected I have found them?  And when I show you how the sim can still be corrected to show the proper (and expected) nature of this wheel you say that should not need to happen?

I believe you are expecting too much out of this software.  The saying goes, "Garbage in, garbage out."  And with respect to sims, this is true.  Those who use sims successfully have learned the best methods over time.  It has a learning curve.  But, again, please do not make absolute statements ruling out the results.  If you do not understand how they were derived, we are happy to answer your questions.  I am growing tired of having to say you are wrong since you say absolutes rather than ask why or state that something is your opinion, observation, or belief. 

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1313 on: May 08, 2009, 11:52:31 PM »
Remove the ramps and try it. Center of mass is still to the right. In that respect your wm2d example doesn't apply.

I don't know what you have done, maybe left something somewhere. I removed the ramps and it behaves as expected, it finds equilibrium.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1313 on: May 08, 2009, 11:52:31 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1314 on: May 09, 2009, 12:11:20 AM »
I don't know what you have done, maybe left something somewhere. I removed the ramps and it behaves as expected, it finds equilibrium.

Hans von Lieven

Remove the two elliptic pieces forming the ramp and have only the wheel and the spheres remain. Go View>System Center of Mass. Center of mass is to the right of the axis of rotation

Open again the file, let it run for a while. Then go Stop>World>Start Here. Then remove the rwo ellipsoid pieces forming the ramp and have only the wheel and the sphere on the screen. Again go View>System Center of Mass. Center of mass is again to the right of the axis of rotation.

Center of mass is persistently to the right of the axis of rotation according to the wm2d, therefore, this must be a perpetuum mobile if we are to believe the program. It is quite possible that @mondrasek's analysis applied to the right construction (recall that his analysis was only applied to a mock up just to show the methodology) may also prove perpetuum mobile. More work is needed.

EDIT: Notice, if you get rid of everything else but the wheel the center of mass falls right where it's expected to be. That's a check that wm2d determines system of mass correctly.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1315 on: May 09, 2009, 12:14:23 AM »
Let the sim run and settle to it's equilibrium point first using the prescribed methodology and THEN check the center of mass.

Notice that I did not analyze the sim you gave me in it's current starting condition because that was not the equilibrium position.

That's the point -- the sim never settles to it's equilibrium position, the center of mass is always to the right of the rotation axis. If the center of mass is indeed to the right of the axis of rotation and you've made it somehow to get the wheel to an equilibrium position then your conditions are inducing an error and should be abandoned.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1315 on: May 09, 2009, 12:14:23 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1316 on: May 09, 2009, 12:23:17 AM »
@mondrasek,

Quote
Omnibus, do you see that when these sims do not act as expected I look for errors in the analysis?  And everytime the sim does not behave as expected I have found them?

I don’t agree that you have found them. I’ve always said that your analysis of wm2d isn’t rigorous. Rigorous would be an analysis applying your last approach (summing up the torques) on models that have appeared to work and trying to optimize it. I already said that. This hasn’t been done yet. 


Quote
And when I show you how the sim can still be corrected to show the proper (and expected) nature of this wheel you say that should not need to happen?

If the analysis is rigorous there shouldn’t be the disagreement we’re having now. Unfortunately, no rigorous analysis and optimization of Abeling’s device has been shown yet.

Quote
I believe you are expecting too much out of this software.  The saying goes, "Garbage in, garbage out."  And with respect to sims, this is true.  Those who use sims successfully have learned the best methods over time.  It has a learning curve.  But, again, please do not make absolute statements ruling out the results.  If you do not understand how they were derived, we are happy to answer your questions.  I am growing tired of having to say you are wrong since you say absolutes rather than ask why or state that something is your opinion, observation, or belief.

Again, there hasn’t been a rigorous analysis shown yet and if you’re getting tired of not being able to supply one that’s another story. The problem with the rigorous analysis cannot go away just like that and instead accept the wishful thinking as the solution.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1317 on: May 09, 2009, 12:38:43 AM »
Like I said, the only puzzling thing is why while having the center of mass to the right of the pivot the wheel should turn CCW. That's beside the point, however, because if the wm2d correctly determines the center of mass (which appears to be the case) any possible flaw in the rest of wm2d's performance is a moot point. The decisive factor proving perpetuum mobile is the observed persistent discrepancy in the position of the axis of rotation and the center of mass.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1318 on: May 09, 2009, 01:46:09 AM »
not rigorous
Rigorous?

RIGOROUS?

Yet everytime I follow the same methodology.  The same methodology.  The same methodology.

And each time I see the sim resolve to the expected results.  The expected results.  The expected results.

And so I say again:  WM2D works fine, within it's known limitations, and always (ALWAYS) has predicted the correct real world results.

And now when I do a simple static analysis of the torque balance you question that?  And say I do not consider things that are absolutely NOT relevant?

Is this a case of, "He cannot see the forest for the trees?"

I do not know.  But I grow weary of the debate:  I try all of your tests.  You ignore all of mine.

It is like your first instinct is to argue, or contradict, rather than understand.  Or maybe its just me...

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1319 on: May 09, 2009, 01:56:18 AM »
No, I don't ignore your tests but they haven't been rigorous so far and therefore are not definitive. Not to say that they are at odds with the most important test, namely, the position of the center of mass with respect to the axle. The program seems to be correct on that and it's proving unequivocally this device is a perpetuum mobile, at least in the ideal case. I've repeated this multiple times and I'm saying it again because, unfortunately, you don't want to hear it.

 

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