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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 667392 times)

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1260 on: May 06, 2009, 08:31:53 AM »
@Dusty:
While I think that acceleration at the top is very cool as do you, I am wondering whether there could be too much of a good thing.
Accelerating the weight more than it needs to, might drain too much energy from the other weight doing the work for it?
I was thinking maybe slots with a larger radius, or a shifting radius. The slingshot action will be there anyways, but "too" much might stress the system overly in that "hot" spot, and cause more clunking than necessary.

Good luck with that huge build!

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Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1261 on: May 06, 2009, 08:55:06 AM »
124 pages in 4 weeks, but not one post overnight from the newer side of the Atlantic? Must be a really reply-unworthy idea then... Anyone in Europe, please?

Well....I'm from Denmark, Scandinavia,... that's Europe, that's Vikings, that's Lego, B&O and Maersk.

ruggero  ;)

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1262 on: May 06, 2009, 09:01:37 AM »
Well....I'm from Denmark, Scandinavia,... that's Europe, that's Vikings, that's Lego, B&O and Maersk.

ruggero  ;)
I was on the wrong track, at least for the invention at hand, but someone could have told me :-)
For the heck of it, I may simulate or build my idea one day anyways, perhaps that as long as the weights leave the wheel 6-9 o'clock, it will work just as nicely. Leaving the wheels seems to be what makes this equasion work, after all.

@Dusty:
May be obsolete to state here, but better sure that sorry. Have you investigated whether a weight rolling up the ramp will be clean of touching the wheel, pushing or being pushed (wide cut-out) to allow it to reach a good heght before the wheel catches up with it? Using the weight to push the wheel up early in the "up" phase seems a waste of inertia. I suppose there will be an ideal slot shape which will have the wheel gently building up the push after 9 o'clock. Starting-stopping the weight may cancel out from an inertia standpoint, but it does add to stress, friction and noise.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:42:26 PM by Cloxxki »

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1262 on: May 06, 2009, 09:01:37 AM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1263 on: May 06, 2009, 03:40:26 PM »
See, the question is why this iterative "resonance" is favorable at only one particular disposition of the same elements and all the rest the same? As for the turning of the balls when they shouldn't, it's also observed with 0.0001m integration error.
The turning balls are a clear sign that the wheel is experiencing some unresolvable computational error.  In this case, I don't think you can get away from it by reducing the time step, only minimize it somewhat.  It is due to the nature of the design.  Likely the sim is calculating the change in position of the wheel due to the influence of one ball.  That change in position of the wheel causes collisions with all the other balls.  As the sim continues with the calculations for the second ball, these same issues arise with the other seven again.  This is repeated 8 times in this model.  And as balls in certain specific portions of rotation rotate violently compared to others, it appears that the particular angles of the slots and guides, as well as possibly the distance of the ball from the main wheel axis, create worse conditions than other locations.  But the movement is still obviously an iterative "resonance" and not some new force.  Moving the guides a bit to one side does not stop the balls from spinning.  It may stop the wheel from rotating, but this only means the errors are canceling this time and not creating a net torque on the wheel.  Nothing more.  And it definitely does not mean this sim is showing any tendency toward providing power.

If left to itself, the wheel in this sim is a balanced wheel with a keeling effect.  It will find the position where the weights settle the best and stop moving.  If the guides allowed for no slop, it should become a balance wheel without a keeling effect and would balance in any orientation.  And the closer you get to a balanced condition, the more problems you will have with an iterative simulation.  This is true in the real world as well where we find that balanced systems may oscillate or fret around the balance point due to the tiniest of outside influences and actually wear faster than a system that is loaded to one side and thus held in place by a force. 

You can try making a pendulum that faces straight up in WM2D.  It will almost always fall to one side eventually.  Change the time step and integration error and it will fall again, sometimes to the other direction.

A couple of other simple tests for this sim:

1)  Increase the weight of one ball slightly.  You will find that the wheel runs in the expect direction and then rock back and forth with that ball seeking the lowest point.  This takes the wheel out of balance but shows the motion when at balance to be just a software abberation.

2)  Spin the wheel by placing another weight on top of only one ball and turning on collision.  This will give the wheel a spin just like you would by hand.  The wheel will slow to the same abberant rotational speed.

All of these things show that the weird movement of the sim is an error due to the iterative nature of the software, and not an indication of the design wanting to run.

I'm reluctant to decrease the set of elements because that particular set may be the one that brings about the essence of the effect. Also, introducing external torque to substitute for the missing elements doesn't seem to me as an acceptable approach. I'd rather play with the parameters and compare different placements of the same elements. We have to see if the program can handle that, otherwise we should just drop it because the conclusions we draw by using it, either way, will be unreliable.
I did not say to introduce external torques.  I was trying to explain that in a symmetric gravity wheel that it must be able to run with only two weights (or movements) at 180 degrees apart.  The only purpose in adding more weight pairs is to increase the output.  Likewise if two weights do not create a net torque, adding more pairs only further decreases performance as witnessed by decreasing rundown times from a given start RPM.  So testing with only two weights is valid.  It also allows the sim to avoid the 8 x iteration error and 4 x calculation problems in this particular sim.  Try it.  It is very quick, easy, and allows the sim to run much faster and without the abberant movement.

Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1264 on: May 06, 2009, 03:47:03 PM »
Using the weight to push the wheel up early in the "up" phase seems a waste of inertia. I suppose there will be an ideal slot shape which will have the wheel gently building up the push after 9 o'clock. Starting-stopping the weight may cancel out from an inertia standpoint, but it does add to stress, friction and noise.
You're so very wellcome, Gloxxki.. ;)

Anyway...I agree with you, that we have to build up the push. BUT perhaps the buildup period can be very very short...like a katapult!
I made some changes to Dusty's design (se drawing):

The major point here is, that gravity will do a maximum push on the ramp at 06:00....why don't we harvest that energy?

I suggest that the Dusty's ramp could slide to the left, pushed by gravity by the weight at 06:00.
The ramp push another catapult (spring) mechanism to the left.
When there is no more push force, the catapult will shoot the weight at 11:00 over the top.
And the ramp slide back to start position.

(the catapult mechanism could also turn around the axel as a CW counterlever...)

Request!
Could anyone of you WM2D experts make a sim of this?

I would just love to se Dusty try this on his 'little' wheel set-up...;)

ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1264 on: May 06, 2009, 03:47:03 PM »
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Offline Obelix

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1265 on: May 06, 2009, 03:50:57 PM »
Hello,

Just an idea of how resolve the right trace of weight:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 01:32:33 AM by Obelix »

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1266 on: May 06, 2009, 03:51:00 PM »
I was on the wrong track, at least for the invention at hand, but someone could have told me :-)

Cloxxki, that is one of the problems with these forums.  If you gain the reputation of the debunker, you risk gaining the reputation as the skeptic, a negative contributor, a MIB, etc.  And that can lead to attacks and other negative action.  So it is sometimes easier for us to ignore some stuff.  Especially if it is in a thread on a different idea or tact or possibly covered earlier in the thread.  But don't be discouraged.  If you have a good idea you can't find fault with, be persistant.  Starting a new thread and inviting critique appears to always break the silence.  Also, PM it to the members who's opinion you really seek.  I sometimes PM offers for assistance or explanations for why ideas won't work as expected to members to avoid derailing a thread or help them avoid any embarrassment or any violent counter attack from fanatics.

Welcome to this discussion!

M.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1266 on: May 06, 2009, 03:51:00 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1267 on: May 07, 2009, 04:51:42 AM »
@mondrasek,

The categorical spirit of your conclusion doesn't follow from the gist of what you're saying. The more likely outcome of this analysis is that wm2d is just not fit for such kind of exploration and one`can only conclude subjectively either pessimistically or optimistically, depending on his inclinations. That's even worse than not having any modeling tool.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1268 on: May 07, 2009, 05:30:59 AM »
@mondrasek,

Quote
I did not say to introduce external torques.  I was trying to explain that in a symmetric gravity wheel that it must be able to run with only two weights (or movements) at 180 degrees apart.  The only purpose in adding more weight pairs is to increase the output.  Likewise if two weights do not create a net torque, adding more pairs only further decreases performance as witnessed by decreasing rundown times from a given start RPM.  So testing with only two weights is valid.  It also allows the sim to avoid the 8 x iteration error and 4 x calculation problems in this particular sim.  Try it.  It is very quick, easy, and allows the sim to run much faster and without the abberant movement.

I should reiterate, I don't agree with that. Any suggestion for a construction different from the particular one under consideration is not modeling it and cannot be substituting it for any conclusions regarding it. If the construction under consideration indeed works it would be something unusual and it is by no means to be expected that other trivial mechanical constructions would mimic its action. If this were the case the phenomenon we're seeking would be an everyday occurrence demonstrable by the available pendulums, weights and the like which isn't the case, as is well known.  Thus, either there should be a reliable tool to correctly model the particular setup of interest or we should just not waste time playing with sims that only model their own instabilities. Seemingly similar examples won't do the job other than demonstrate problems with the modeling software which isn't the goal in our case.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1268 on: May 07, 2009, 05:30:59 AM »
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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1269 on: May 07, 2009, 08:48:08 AM »
OK, I woke up from a 48 hour euphoria.
All at once, I don't see anymore why a device like Dusty's Abeling replication would work, or any, when weights are to return just as high as they started. Let alone from just a gentle initial push.

Do any of you a special energy exchange that would be giving over unity?

Someone's simple explanation of, if at all, WHY such a device would self-accelerate and continue to run, would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

Offline Tink

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1270 on: May 07, 2009, 10:28:52 AM »
OK, I woke up from a 48 hour euphoria.
All at once, I don't see anymore why a device like Dusty's Abeling replication would work, or any, when weights are to return just as high as they started. Let alone from just a gentle initial push.

Do any of you a special energy exchange that would be giving over unity?

Someone's simple explanation of, if at all, WHY such a device would self-accelerate and continue to run, would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

It is very simple, the weights are closer to the center of the wheel on one side than on the other side.
It is this imbalance what makes it run.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1270 on: May 07, 2009, 10:28:52 AM »
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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1271 on: May 07, 2009, 10:44:01 AM »
Thanks Tink, makes all kinds of sence.
But surely this has been tried for centuries? with all the brainpower put into PPM's, odd that it would take until 2009 for one to be confirmed, if it is?
How hard is it to make a tower lift standing inside (the sideview of) a wheel, two running fully sync'd? Weight goes down one side of the wheel, at bottom transfers onto the tower lift, which delivers it back on top. Of extra height is required to overcome friction, the sync system might have a bit of a "hop" in it for that final push, or even neater : a light overdrive on the tower. Might that work? Or does Abeling do rely on the unweighting of the wheel early on in the weight's lift, using momentum?

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1272 on: May 07, 2009, 01:48:28 PM »
@mondrasek,

The categorical spirit of your conclusion doesn't follow from the gist of what you're saying. The more likely outcome of this analysis is that wm2d is just not fit for such kind of exploration and one`can only conclude subjectively either pessimistically or optimistically, depending on his inclinations. That's even worse than not having any modeling tool.

wm2d would "not fit for such kind of exploration" if such kind of exploration were not based on classical physics, but searchers for gravity wheel don't say it needs new physics. They apply known physics laws for explaining their inventions. Thus wm2d applies too.




Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1273 on: May 07, 2009, 02:28:55 PM »
wm2d would "not fit for such kind of exploration" if such kind of exploration were not based on classical physics, but searchers for gravity wheel don't say it needs new physics. They apply known physics laws for explaining their inventions. Thus wm2d applies too.

The problem with wm2d isn't the classical physics it applies (the effect whose reality we're trying to establish is well within the confines of the less understood aspects of classical physics) but how it is applied. Instabilities in the numerical solving of differential equations (difference equations, rather) are a well known problem among others and it appears wm2d suffer from such problems to an unacceptable extent.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1274 on: May 07, 2009, 03:59:18 PM »
The problem with wm2d isn't the classical physics it applies (the effect whose reality we're trying to establish is well within the confines of the less understood aspects of classical physics) but how it is applied. Instabilities in the numerical solving of differential equations (difference equations, rather) are a well known problem among others and it appears wm2d suffer from such problems to an unacceptable extent.

I agree that WM2D suffers from the "well known problems".  I disagree with your assertion that they are to an "unacceptable extent."  Though I would prefer a better tool, I am comfortable with the limited abilities in this one to show that the Abeling wheel as it has been modeled is simply a balanced wheel.  If you find the results of the sim unacceptable, that is your prerogative.  It is not my intent to argue your conclusions.  I was only trying to show you how my understanding of the software and the simple tests able to be performed with it are in fact valid and are predicting exactly what Dusty has found in the real world so far.  I strongly believe it will continue to do so with his current build as well.  So do I think Dusty should stop?  Nope.  He should do exactly what he wants to with his build for his own purposes.  Likewise, I should state that I believe the sims are conclusive evidence of a non-runner.  And Omnibus should state that Omnibus believes whatever you do.  But please don't try and make your beliefs the absolute from which there cannot be other valid opinions.

 

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