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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 668989 times)

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1245 on: May 05, 2009, 09:59:55 PM »
I need more to be convinced that decreasing the time step, let alone setting up air resistance to non-zero is indeed the proper methodology and not just seeking ways to prove the device is non-working.
This need of yours I understand and respect.  And because of it you answered that the sims so far were inconclusive.  I, on the other hand, feel that the testing and my understanding of the sims has conclusively shown that they fail to show a device that works as Abeling describes.  And so I stated, "With all due respect to Omnibus", my differing opinion.

Just as enormous power can be generated in a resonant electrical (or mechanical) system, yet not be extracted as more energy than was initially input, so can the iterative nature of the sim software set up motion where it would not exist in the real world.  The acid test is to apply a load and see if the sim can overcome that.  The quickest small global load (that also mimics real world conditions) is air resistance.  If turning that on dampens your movement to zero, that movement was not a force that could do any work and can be ignored (and likely just a software aberration).  If you can design something that overcomes that simple test, then you may have something worth pursuing.  The Abeling design has not shown any simulated tendency towards producing usable output.  I conclude from this that the design as simulated does not work.

The time step and integration error are debatable.  But you agree that the smaller the time step, the more accurate the sim is supposed to become, right?  And the (relatively large) default setting allows for more real time performance on slower machines?  So that is what I would put in my software for default as well.  It does not mean it is any way optimal.  We both know that smaller is more accurate.

Integration error needs to be set smaller with smaller sized model elements.  This is obvious with how this value also decreases the allowable interference between colliding elements.  So decreasing this value also increases accuracy.

There is always the possibility that a specific and small value of time step and integration error will set up a resonant condition, forcing a competing interference, especially when pinching one moving object (rollers) between two others (wheel slots and guides).  When this happens it is usually obvious and you can change one or both values a small amount to get away from this "resonant" condition.  But I stand by the fact that decreasing both is the proper way to increase accuracy and usually rules out aberrant behaviors caused by gross values.  I also respect your desire to have less subjective information and to draw your own conclusions.

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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1246 on: May 05, 2009, 10:09:03 PM »
@Dusty
Your replication is going to work, I'm pretty sure. It all makes sence to me now.

I'd recommend : larger diameter weights as they roll the wood.
Heavier weights as you planned.

Maybe if you use rollers (steel or alu as you work with) spacer OVER the bearing to increase the diameter to reduce resistance, you'l also get some spinning of said bearing to work, so they won't be stuttering as much, and it will become one smooth operation.

As I warned on Youtube, I'd consider building a brake first (wedge some under there with a lever) before you do a test of more than 1 revolution. Bolt the frame to the floor.

I feel the excitement, when you take the next step, we'll see a working perpetuum mobile, which will turn into a hightly woodshredder unless it's rpm's are controlled :-)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1247 on: May 05, 2009, 10:18:36 PM »
@mondrasek,

I'm trying to understand this. Air resistance aside (we'll consider it zero), I'm getting the same integration message error at the same position of the wheel no matter whether Integration Error is set to 0.01m or to 0.0001m when using the Runge-Kutta method (for this purpose I'm checking the Warning for the Integration Error). Euler's method just explodes and we'll exclude it for now. I don't think the animation step matters either. If you ignore that error, in the case of lower threshold the wheel finds equilibrium while at higher threshold keeps going (all that is under non-ideal conditions -- both frictions on 0.3, elasticity at 0.5, no air resistance). The smaller threshold should be better but it obviously isn't in this case -- error stays the same but at larger thresholds the performance differs from the performance at the lower thresholds.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1247 on: May 05, 2009, 10:18:36 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1248 on: May 05, 2009, 10:24:08 PM »
Omni, please post the sim you are currently playing with and I'll take a look.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1249 on: May 05, 2009, 10:27:52 PM »
@mondrasek,

Please, see attached.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1249 on: May 05, 2009, 10:27:52 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1250 on: May 05, 2009, 10:40:47 PM »
@mondrasek,

Now, this is with track shifted to the right. Everything else the same. This time won't work either way -- both at 0.01m and 0.0001m integration error. The integration error message again popping up at the same place for both thresholds.

EDIT: Just tried it w/ track shifted in the opposite direction -- to the left. Doesn't work at both thresholds here too. So, why is it that at one particular position of the track it works at 0.01m integration accuracy while at any other position of the track it won't work? Could it be that a position for 0.0001m integration accuracy can be found where it will work as well? Is this a matter only of optimization?

Will be interesting to see what Stefan will come up with when he has the chance to apply his idea for two wheels offset by 30 degrees, connected with a shaft.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 11:07:53 PM by Omnibus »

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1251 on: May 05, 2009, 11:04:07 PM »
Omni,

Well, that sim is a bit of a beast and will take some time on my humble work computer.  But right off the bat it definitely looks like a problem with too large a time step and integration error.  You should notice two things:  1)  Some of the balls are spinnning when they should not, and 2) the balls are interfering with the walls of the slots and ramps very much visually (the program even complains of that with and error for me).  These are due to an interference error that the sim is likely trying to resolve by turning the wheel (the wrong way even).  Both are symptoms of an iterative "resonance" in the calculations.

I'll check it out more tomorrow, but for starters I would say simplify the model first!  This is a symetric design and can be tested with only two slots and two balls 180 degrees apart.  Adding the other slots is wasting CPU cycles and adds nothing to the sim.  It would only add additional torque to the output (2 x slot pairs = 2 x output, 4 x slot pairs = 4 x output) if it exists.  No reason to have the extra slots in the sim.  Not for a symetric system.  Once the sim is slimmed down to it's base elements we can probably crank up the accuracy with less errors and still maintain some more realistic playback speeds.  Just erasing all but two balls may be enough.

I'm off for now.  Should be back in the morning, EST.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1251 on: May 05, 2009, 11:04:07 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1252 on: May 05, 2009, 11:24:08 PM »
See, the question is why this iterative "resonance" is favorable at only one particular disposition of the same elements and all the rest the same? As for the turning of the balls when they shouldn't, it's also observed with 0.0001m integration error.

I'm reluctant to decrease the set of elements because that particular set may be the one that brings about the essence of the effect. Also, introducing external torque to substitute for the missing elements doesn't seem to me as an acceptable approach. I'd rather play with the parameters and compare different placements of the same elements. We have to see if the program can handle that, otherwise we should just drop it because the conclusions we draw by using it, either way, will be unreliable.

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1253 on: May 05, 2009, 11:43:37 PM »
@Dusty:
Did you on your current wheel ever try to give the wheel a really good starting jerk, to see if the system would overcome its lack of first turn efficiency? Seems that the slow moving weight generate relatively his friction. Until you confirm, who know, perhaps with a bit more weight and a good jerk, you have a motor!

@All: skip the rest of this post if you're not into looking ahead.

Dusty's machine will work next time, I'm pretty sure. Abeling has cracked the code, be it the same as Bessler's or not. After this there will be new versions of similar concept as well I'm sure.

The math works out, right?
The weight in the hockey stick hook provided work of, say, 100cm.
As the weight exits the wheel at 0cm height, is has even on the first rotation suffient velocity to roll up to 60cm or so until the wheel picks it up again.
The other weight then does that work, and there's energy to spare for friction and acceleration (of the wheel I mean).

I envision within a year, we'll have build contests to make the fastest spinning/most efficient/silent Abeling's Wheel, working with a resticted weight or height. Desktop toy size, perhaps? And we'll see slow-motion vids of the most spectacular self-destructions.
There's the patent infringement, but perhaps if you only build it for yourself, and only one unique machine, it might be OK.

What about permanent magnets for weights, to do away with surface and bearing friction on the machine? :-) That might actually be an idea for the large scale versions too. The weights could become more and more banana-shaped. Or skateboards as mentioned, if you will.

Abeling can now come forth with his working machine, as I'm pretty sure Dusty will be very close to it when get gets his next version up.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1253 on: May 05, 2009, 11:43:37 PM »
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Offline Dusty

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1254 on: May 06, 2009, 12:43:45 AM »
Hi,

I see it's time for a little update.  I've been working on building the six foot wheels.  I've added a couple attachments just to see the size of the new wheels.  I have a bunch of work to do in cutting the slots and cutting up the frame and making it larger.  I'm working on it every day as time allows. 

I do read every post and would like to thank everyone who offered ideas and support, you know who you are!  Thank you very much. 

Dusty

Offline Justalabrat

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1255 on: May 06, 2009, 12:45:41 AM »
@Dusty
I feel the excitement, when you take the next step, we'll see a working perpetuum mobile, which will turn into a hightly woodshredder unless it's rpm's are controlled :-)

LOL! I think we would all like to have that as a problem!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1255 on: May 06, 2009, 12:45:41 AM »
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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1256 on: May 06, 2009, 01:04:41 AM »
LOL! I think we would all like to have that as a problem!
Indeed. But look how simple it is. The weight rolling up the first ramp is only pressing down the Earth. That part of the equasion (a good chuck) is gone.

That new wheel is HUGE!

@Dusty:
Sure you've already addressed it in your design, but you may want to make the transition of the weight from the wheel onto the first ramp as fluent as possible.
For this you'll want to decide on the out diameter of your weights as will be rolling up that ramp.
For the ramp curvature to make it a smooth transition, I thing a circel part is too abrubt. Maybe consider turning down the radius to it's main one only when the weight is like a foot or more on the thing already. Build up the weight transfer and direction change, rather than it hitting the radius abrubtly.

The upper ramps and wheel slots, I'm sure you'll design it for high-rpm, the weight taking a clean path around it. The will be different from still demonstrations, obviously.

Think safety and stiffness, if you're looking for this thing to make even just a few rotations. With 8 (heavier?) weights, it's going to accelerate.

Please let this be a real free energy device, that makes the complicate magnet motors and other complicated contraptions obsolete for the purpose of powering our houses or charging our e-cars.
Hope this is not one of those monthly disappointments I find on this forum, that start out on a high and then just die. Even if the MIB seize this patent, we (the people) will be able to make this thing, and develope upon it.

Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1257 on: May 06, 2009, 01:19:47 AM »
I see it's time for a little update.  I've been working on building the six foot wheels.  I've added a couple attachments just to see the size of the new wheels.  I have a bunch of work to do in cutting the slots and cutting up the frame and making it larger.  I'm working on it every day as time allows. 
Dusty

Hi Dusty,

Where did you get the six foot wheels? I can only find the usual 4X8 plywood.

Thanks, Larry

Offline X00013

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1258 on: May 06, 2009, 02:05:57 AM »
@ dusty, your insane on the membrane, I like it ;D

Offline overtaker

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1259 on: May 06, 2009, 02:17:25 AM »
You can buy 3 sheets of 4 by 8 plywood,  cut them all to 4 by 6 ft.,  cut one of them into two pcs. of 2 by 6 ft., glue and screw them together ( overlap seems of course ), cut out your circle.  This will give you one disc.  If you buy plywood that is sanded on one side, glue the rough sides together.   Lots of glue applied with a paint roller works well. Work fast.
If you buy 3/8 plywood your finished work will be 3/4. I like to change directions of the top layer. Hope this helps.

 

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