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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 676681 times)

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1215 on: May 04, 2009, 03:30:29 PM »
EDIT : seems I was thinking only 4 pages ahead of you guys, although you have no reason to believe other than my honest Dutch word for it. Page 39, my idea was introduced by @AquariuZ. I'll just flatter myself having come up with it without seeing any animations or 'Tube vids :-)
Being exposed to so much info over a span of days may distort the mind? I'm now reading on to see if you've debunked this idea. Abeling really told more than he should have, I think. Co-operating minds can be stronger than one.


Another Dutch guy here.

I've read up to page 35 so far. have seen no similations or other external media due to limited access.

Before I forget it though:
Pics I've seen so far, present from the side view of the wheel, a point-centered weight.
I tend to think that there is more "slinging" involved. Add a stick to your weights, and at the end another weight. The extra weights on the right side is free (narrower to fall through rim) to take a wide circel, up to 5 o'clock or so, taking advantage of the range offered (obviously). After 5, it interacts differently with the ramps than the weight on the other end of the stick. It turns from "pulling" to "pushing". Near 12 o'clock, it is resticted freedom, forced to take a "low" path with more velocity.
I'm a physics rookie (school dropout) need to learn similations etc, plus read another 90 pages.

Please someone spend one sentence to tell me I'm wrong and it's been patented already without ever proven results.
If you don't understand, aweful sketching attached!

2 weights, connecting by stock (rod?).
One takes a wider swing 12-5 o'clock, and tends turns into pushing 7-12.

Seems the outer weights has some additional centrifuginal energy with no-where to go.

Thanks!

J
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:01:30 PM by Cloxxki »

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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1216 on: May 04, 2009, 04:29:46 PM »
We also need @mondrasek's expertise in this. Where has he gone? Hans too. @AquariuZ, Stefan, @einsenficker2000, @ruggero.
I'm still here, when work and life (weekends) are not priority.  I just have not seen where I can add or assist with current activities.  The sims, while interesting, showed the non-runner many expected once the patent was revealed (minus sims with modeling/sim errors).  And Dusty's build is also acting as expected.  So I am of the mind that Abeling doesn't "have it", or he has yet to reveal and/or us discover some other feature of the design.  I am following this thread to see if anyone comes up with that or any other new ideas.

Offline rlortie

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1217 on: May 04, 2009, 04:40:45 PM »
Wouldn't a smoother curve transition between weight-in-slot trajectory and ramp trajectory eliminate any possible back torque?ruggero  ;)

A few years ago, I fabricated a flexible telescoping ramp test bed apperatus. I could change the ramp making it larger and smaller in all directions shapes.

Test after test was made and the results recorded using a very light lever assembly running on low friction bearings and roller blade wheels as idlers riding the ramp. The balanced disk that the weights were mounted on acted as a flywheel.

All testing ended in the same results; close but no cigar! Adding more levers and weights was more a hindrance than an augment.

Ralph

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1217 on: May 04, 2009, 04:40:45 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1218 on: May 04, 2009, 04:43:14 PM »
Well, we could do it in 2D by putting 2 wheel side by side and using a gear to combine them
and have one wheel "weight phase shifted".

So a DXF would be good.
Regards, Stefan.

That's very interesting if it can be done. This will allow us to compare the two types of simulation -- the wm2d with the 3ds max reactor. Do you think you can apply your idea on these two sims (see attached). It's interesting to see what the effect on the sense of rotation your idea will have on these two sims. The slotted rotors aren't of the same type as @Jubjub's but seem to work just as well. Maybe if you can do it with these rotors we can just replace them later with @Jubjub's.

As for 3ds max reactor, I'm still having trouble figuring out the exact physical situation. As expected wm2d is somewhat simple to handle in that respect -- mass is straightforwardly given in kg, dimensions in meters etc. Also, in wm2d one can adjust both static and dynamic (kinetic) friction. In reactor the provision is only friction with no qualification. There are other things, however, which have to be adjusted too which have to be understood better.

One may also think, am I not emphasizing too much on the friction. If one wants to prevent any motor from functioning one may do that by tempering with friction. Where's the limit in our case in this respect? Do we want to prove that such device can function in principle or we want to satisfy the critics by setting up such conditions as to make it non-working which, as I said, can be arranged literally for any motor whatsoever.

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1219 on: May 04, 2009, 04:43:49 PM »
I'm now reading on to see if you've debunked this idea. Abeling really told more than he should have, I think. Co-operating minds can be stronger than one.[/b]

Another Dutch guy here.

I've read up to page 35 so far. have seen no similations or other external media due to limited access.


Thanks!

J

cloxxki,

Welcome to our humble list!

Good to see your ideas although I don't think this is a working
concept yet. It is similar to many where weights are allowed
to fly out on one side of the wheel.

But hopefully with some feedback from the list you can
adjust your thoughts to come closer to what Abeling said...

The weights could be connected somehow with a rod, but
any scheme I have thought of has complications. The distance
between the weights changes as the wheel rotates for example.

What was interesting on the first picture of Abeling's wheel
was the (to me) seeming repetition of two kinds of slots?

But keep your posts coming!  It shouldn't take long to read the
posts if you filter out all the simulation posts. Key posts of suggested importance are those of Dusty's replication.

Kind regards,

Ron

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1219 on: May 04, 2009, 04:43:49 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1220 on: May 04, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »
@i_ron,

I strongly disagree. The simulation posts are the most important in this thread. This is the only tangible stuff we have on this matter yet. Sims help to understand and illustrate the concept and understanding the concept is a shortcut to the blind hitting brick walls and hoping that luck will dawn upon you.

What is needed here is more scientific approach rather than just relying on construction skills and part of the scientific approach is analysis using sims, possibly describing it analytically with equations, solving these equations etc. Discoveries sometimes are made by chance but in our case it's not about a discovery but about a concrete engineering solution which by no means should ignore using modern tools of analysis to be achieved. If the modern tools of analysis are ignored we would still be riding in horse carts and building satellites to explore the cosmos would be out of the question. Even the computer you're using, which is mostly an engineering achievement, wouldn't be around if the modern engineering methods of analysis and construction were ignored.

Offline rlortie

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1221 on: May 04, 2009, 05:03:01 PM »
@i_ron,

I strongly disagree. The simulation posts are the most important in this thread. This is the only tangible stuff we have on this matter yet. Sims help to understand and illustrate the concept and understanding the concept is a shortcut to the blind hitting brick walls and hoping that luck will dawn upon you.

A wee bit in contradiction here aren't we! You disagree with Ron but state that sims help find a shortcut to the blind hitting a brick wall.

In my opinion you got the latter part right!

Just what is your opinion of Dusty and his hands on trial and error approach. I would say that he is way ahead of any simulation with objective results.

Ralph 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1221 on: May 04, 2009, 05:03:01 PM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1222 on: May 04, 2009, 05:13:03 PM »
Sorry DP

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1223 on: May 04, 2009, 05:13:24 PM »
Thanks Ron!

The rod's length being "under stress" might be a feature by itself. One could make the rod from a male and female member, with the maximum and/or minimum length restricted mechanically, or spring-loaded.
The outer weight(s) would only approximate the velocity of the inner ones during the latter half of the upstroke. (dis)allowing either weights to rotate, or letting them interact with offset rails to gain/produce inertia could all be part of the design. No reason think we'd not reach nice balance though. There might be a "trick" to it.
I'm now on page 58, thinking of driving against the wind. I am surprized that is still considered a novelty. I'll be surprised if someone manages to be faster than the headwind. Surfers, especially on ice skates, reach great multiples of the wind speeds, but then slightly over 90 degree into it.

General remark:
I was a forum moderator before elsewhere. I liked to keep the original post updated with new findings, so one could spare reading multiple (122 here) pages to collect data. And for newbies, similations that require special applications to see, are somewhat tiresome. Oh well, I'll just soldier on reading.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1223 on: May 04, 2009, 05:13:24 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1224 on: May 04, 2009, 05:15:35 PM »
A wee bit in contradiction here aren't we! You disagree with Ron but state that sims help find a shortcut to the blind hitting a brick wall.

In my opinion you got the latter part right!

Just what is your opinion of Dusty and his hands on trial and error approach. I would say that he is way ahead of any simulation with objective results.

Ralph

Where's the contradiction? Ron says sims are to be ignored, I state that sims are important and shouldn't be ignored.

As for @Dusty, like I said, he's doing a great job by trying to put this in flesh and blood and all power to him if he succeeds. If he doesn't succeed, however, it won't prove such machines aren't possible. Sims as part of a scientific analysis, however, can be closer to answering this. The situation with the trial and error is like someone trying to make a Patek Philippe in his garage with a hammer and a pair of pliers and when failing to produce quite the same as the Swiss watchmaker to conclude that Patek Philippe's can't be real.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1225 on: May 04, 2009, 05:23:17 PM »
@Cloxxki,

Quote
And for newbies, similations that require special applications to see, are somewhat tiresome.

Quite correct. I also mentioned that earlier. This is the biggest drawback of the sims in such forum, especially with 3ds max reactor. Luckily, the wm2d sims can be shown to those who don't have wm2d via youtube. Unfortunately, the 3ds max reactor ones require very fast computers for rendering within reasonable time and that's preventing me, in particular, to show what I'm doing to those who can't use reactor. That, however, doesn't mean we have to ignore the sims.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1225 on: May 04, 2009, 05:23:17 PM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1226 on: May 04, 2009, 06:21:26 PM »
Where's the contradiction? Ron says sims are to be ignored, I state that sims are important and shouldn't be ignored.

OK! they should not be ignored as; [sims is a shortcut to the blind hitting brick walls.]

Most of those who build have a little more resources than a hammer and a pair of pliers.

The Acronym WM2D for me means; Wood, Metal & 2 Days.

End of discussion, back to reality.

Ralph

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1227 on: May 04, 2009, 06:26:46 PM »
Where's the contradiction? Ron says sims are to be ignored, I state that sims are important and shouldn't be ignored.

OK! they should not be ignored as; [sims is a shortcut to the blind hitting brick walls.]

Ralph

On the contrary, sims are a shortcut to avoiding blindly hitting brick walls through trial and error while approaching a problem systematically, as science requires. We shouldn't ignore science just because we have at our disposal a little more that a hammer and a pair of pliers in our basement. Also, wm2d is modeling reality, if properly used, because it's based on laws describing that reality. A tool such as wm2d or 3ds max reactor far exceeds any mechanical tools one may have at one's disposal in addition to the hammer and pliers. Otherwise GM or Boeing would've ignored these sims, Maya's and Catia's long ago. The problem in the area we're discussing is that such highly professional, scientifically based infrastructures are ignoring it and it's left primarily in the hands of amateurs. Obvious engineering solutions such as the one at hand rarely benefit from such ignoring. Otherwise the answer would've been known long ago but because it's positive and isn't to the liking of the Boeing's and GM's of the world, they are avoiding any activity in that respect like the plague. Fortunately, the computerized aids such as wm2d and 3ds max reactor are becoming available to more and more folks outside the corporate culture and that may indeed bring the answer sooner.

Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1228 on: May 04, 2009, 07:57:24 PM »
The situation with the trial and error is like someone trying to make a Patek Philippe in his garage with a hammer and a pair of pliers and when failing to produce quite the same as the Swiss watchmaker to conclude that Patek Philippe's can't be real.

Not to be a pain in the a...but the same is often heard in here in reverse.

ruggero  ;)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1229 on: May 04, 2009, 08:13:00 PM »
Not to be a pain in the a...but the same is often heard in here in reverse.

ruggero  ;)

I know, but the likelihood that a working sim, properly done, would promise a real working device is substantially greater than the likelihood of a failed attempt in a garage to prove failure of the entire concept.

 

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