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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 667657 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1005 on: April 21, 2009, 05:30:10 PM »
@mondrasek,

That extraneous geometry was removed promptly. I posted a follow-up corrected file. So, that's out.

The decreased error limits cause the run (forget rendering) to be excruciatingly slow. That doesn't correspond to the physical situation. Even worse, around frame 2100, I guess, when the wheel is still moving CCW, that nasty inconsistency error pops up telling you that if you continue some of the restraints will be ignored. That's unacceptable because that ignoring of restraints is what maybe causing the apparent finding of its equilibrium. In the "original" file with less restrictive limits there was no such error. So, I'm not sure how that narrowing of the error limits improves things. This has to be understood better.

As for the initial overlap and the program adding collision forces due to it, that's a legitimate concern which is easy to fix (while retaining the old error limits). I'm running it now again with the old error limits but after fixing the three overlaps. Rendering is very slow and I still don't know the outcome.

EDIT: Also, why should the factors you mention are acting in this case and not in the case with @broli's method of forced trajectory? Elements are of the same size (small) in the @broli method, error limits are the same but the outcome is negative there.

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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1006 on: April 21, 2009, 05:35:55 PM »
Then changed the Animation Step from .05 to .001 and let it run.  I moves CCW a small amount, finds it's equilibrium point, and stops.

Exactly my experience with cleaned up model

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1007 on: April 21, 2009, 05:37:46 PM »
@AquariuZ,

Whatever happened to that governmental official? Seems like he went back to sleep on his desk. Didn't they say that by law the answer will be given in two days?

The communication service answered they couldn't answer and that they redirected my question to the ministry directly. They complied, but the ministry does not have to, or can stall.

I am pretty certain he has approval for an experimental setup, but certainly not for mass production.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1007 on: April 21, 2009, 05:37:46 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1008 on: April 21, 2009, 05:40:11 PM »
Exactly my experience with cleaned up model

@AquariuZ,

What cleaned up model? Did you change the error limits? If you did other non-physical things start to happen -- as I already said, non-physically slow motion as well as ignoring constraints. Things are not as straightforward as they seem with this wm2d either way (pro and con).

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1009 on: April 21, 2009, 05:40:32 PM »
Well, MiB's are Mylow's specialty. As a MiB free country such as Holland, the only possibility are bureaucrats sleeping on their desks (bureaus), it seems.

It may seem MiB free to you, but ask this question:

Who founded the Bilderberg group?

"You may smile and smile and still be a villain"

There is corruption everywhere you look...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1009 on: April 21, 2009, 05:40:32 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1010 on: April 21, 2009, 05:46:04 PM »
@AquariuZ,

What cleaned up model? Did you change the error limits? If you did other non-physical things start to happen -- as I already said, non-physically slow motion as well as ignoring constraints. Things are not as straightforward as they seem with this wm2d either way (pro and con).

Integrator error, Frame rate.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1011 on: April 21, 2009, 05:48:00 PM »
@AquariuZ and @Cherryman,

Would be interesting to replace the wheel in what seems to be the working model (per @eisenficker2000 design) with a hockey-stick grooved wheel, to get a slight idea where @Dusty might be heading.

You did not reply to the fact that these hockeysticks seem curved the wrong way around on the long end

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1011 on: April 21, 2009, 05:48:00 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1012 on: April 21, 2009, 05:50:36 PM »
Integrator error, Frame rate.

No, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1013 on: April 21, 2009, 05:54:26 PM »
You did not reply to the fact that these hockeysticks seem curved the wrong way around on the long end

That's why I'd like to try it with "proper" hockey stick grooves.

Something funny is going on with the seemingly working model -- the balls around 8 o'clock in the lower left part suddenly find more freedom and escape from the, let's call it, @broli's forced trajectory. The inverted hockey stick form seems to help in securing favorable timing. The balls on the right-hand side are always in fixed positions.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1013 on: April 21, 2009, 05:54:26 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1014 on: April 21, 2009, 06:04:29 PM »
That's why I'd like to try it with "proper" hockey stick grooves.

Something funny is going on with the seemingly working model -- the balls around 8 o'clock in the lower left part suddenly find more freedom and escape from the, let's call it, @broli's forced trajectory. The inverted hockey stick form seems to help in securing favorable timing. The balls on the right-hand side are always in fixed positions.

Fair enough. I would advise using Hans' method of trajectories to recreate the exact paths

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1015 on: April 21, 2009, 06:14:33 PM »
Fair enough. I would advise using Hans' method of trajectories to recreate the exact paths

Not at all. Like I said, it's too restrictive and doesn't reflect @eisenficker2000's embodiment. Closer to @eisenficker2000's is that with @broli's forced trajectory but it's still too restrictive and still doesn't reflect @eisenficker2000's rendition. I already mentioned these things.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1015 on: April 21, 2009, 06:14:33 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1016 on: April 21, 2009, 06:21:54 PM »
Back to these accuracy issues. It appears that there should be an optimum accuracy in the integration error and animation step. If it's too crude or too fine calculations out of order take place and the whole picture gets skewed. Probably what should be done is always calculate with the default values and have a common ground for comparison (all other errors such as those due to springs, lack of air resistance or rigid joints at Optimized excluded). I guess they were chosen for a reason to be this much.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1017 on: April 21, 2009, 06:39:24 PM »
@broli

How do I preserve the "grooves" when I reshape the rectangles into polygon hockeysticks in your model?

Attached

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1018 on: April 21, 2009, 06:48:39 PM »
@broli

How do I preserve the "grooves" when I reshape the rectangles into polygon hockeysticks in your model?

Attached

That's a waste of time to deal with this model. It doesn't reflect what we're trying to accomplish. Let's get back to Abeling's contraption. Also, @broli's way of forcing the trajectory is too restrictive. It seems there has to be some leeway for the balls at certain parts of the trajectory.

Oh, as for the seemingly working model -- after fixing the overlaps and retaining 0.05AS and 0.011IE the model behaves as already seen. The additional collision force supposedly added by the algorithm is out.


 

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