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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 514385 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #780 on: April 15, 2009, 08:37:20 PM »
This is really strange. From all my experience with wm2d I have seen nothing like this. Usually the "bug" would go away with proper modeling but this remains consistent. Consistent to a point it makes unbelievable feats. It seems that the static-, kinetic friction and elasticity are the main parameters involved.

Even if the wheel weighs 10,000,000 kg, the 1kg weight manages for some reason to give it an extreme amount of energy on collision which is off the charts. In this specific case it's 7,222,243,630% overunity. But like I said those parameters are crucial. If you reduce them to 0 nothing out of the ordinary happens when you all max them out and make them 1 nothing out of the ordinary happens.

It's only when they reach a specific value where the cop is at its maximum.

Edit: Attached is another model clearly showing overunity instead of numbers. To stay true to the Bessler quote. The red weight is 4 times the yellow weight's mass. As you can see a small mass shoots up a heavy mass quite violently.

I'm on the fence with this one. Wm2d has it quirks but this is pretty amazing to me for such a simple model.

Well,yes,it seems to be the ELASTIC parameter inside the properties box of the masses.

I have also reedited this design to see, how it works, but if you set the elastic parameter to Zero
for both the colliding objects, the big acceleration effect goes away.

So another bug of WM2D we must pay attention to workaround.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #781 on: April 15, 2009, 08:43:08 PM »
Check this out (see attached). Slightly improved @AquariuZ' model, scaled down, track somewhat smoothed out etc. Still not working but probably we should focus on the right form of the egg-shaped groove and tweak it a little here and there.

@AquariuZ, still couldn't look at your last model because I was working on this. Will do.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #782 on: April 15, 2009, 08:43:31 PM »
Stefan, In case you missed it....

It is essential to have a good look at this.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.

Please review this model. Mondrasek Omnibus & Broli, please your opinion too.

There is no error in the model attached, unless someone tells me otherwise.

I am currently buidling a hollow wheel with angled weights.

Again, image the axle of a dumbbell rolling over a surface which will spin that axle. Image the spin on the outer ends of the weights. Now imaging those weights being launched into their (angled) slots.

I rest my case & will post it soon. I am also writing the wm2d engineer to have a look at the attached.




Sorry to burst your bubble,
but if you set both elastic parameters to Zero it does no longer work.

Have a look at this:

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #782 on: April 15, 2009, 08:43:31 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #783 on: April 15, 2009, 08:58:08 PM »
Sorry to burst your bubble,
but if you set both elastic parameters to Zero it does no longer work.

Have a look at this:


You simply cannot set elasticity to zero, every material has a certain amount of elasticity...

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #784 on: April 15, 2009, 09:09:31 PM »
You simply cannot set elasticity to zero, every material has a certain amount of elasticity...

Okay, just set it to 0.1 and you see,
that there is no energy amplification then.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #784 on: April 15, 2009, 09:09:31 PM »
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Offline Justalabrat

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #785 on: April 15, 2009, 09:20:31 PM »
Stefan, In case you missed it....

It is essential to have a good look at this.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.


Just a note, if you set the barrier not to collide with the ramp, it will keep spinning forever. That might be a bug.

 But then I am Justalabrat

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #786 on: April 15, 2009, 09:21:26 PM »
Stefan, set it to some large number (to model absolutely elastic collision; the absolutely non-elastic collision in you example is as expected -- the bodies remain stuck together). It goes berserk. Something isn't right.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #786 on: April 15, 2009, 09:21:26 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #787 on: April 15, 2009, 09:27:47 PM »
Come on people.

You are basically saying that every model made in wm2d for e.g. collision analysis is wrong because the default elasticity settings for all materials are wrong.

That is quite a statement.

The angle of the spoke or sleeve is calibrated for standard materials at 0.579 rad. Differnt materials require different angles for optimal jolts.
 
Material ::::::: Jolt

standard::::::::::: -4.256 rad/s
steel::::::::::::::::: -0.049 rad/s BUT at P0 = 0.844 rad (steeper Spoke) already -0.249 rad/s!
ice:::::::::::::::::::: -0.055 rad/s
wood::::::::::::::::: -0.106 rad/s
plastic::::::::::::::: -0.057 rad/s
clay:::::::::::::::::: -0.191 rad/s
rubber::::::::::::::: -0.011 rad/s
rock ::::::::::::::::: -2.011 rad/s

Saying that a basic principle like elasticity may be the cause is simply ludricous, it would render the software completely useless for ANY modeling.

Well, it is easy enough to test in real world with some spinning pinballs and a ramp.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #788 on: April 15, 2009, 09:29:34 PM »
Stefan, set it to some large number (to model absolutely elastic collision; the absolutely non-elastic collision in you example is as expected -- the bodies remain stuck together). It goes berserk. Something isn't right.

What do you expect if you maximize elasticity.

Would be a hell of a cat toy though.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #788 on: April 15, 2009, 09:29:34 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #789 on: April 15, 2009, 09:30:02 PM »
The conclusion is the program doesn't work well with springs, as @mondrasek warned, with elastic collisions etc. In these cases, again as @mondrasek warned, we have to use palliative measures such as air resistance, dampers etc. Fortunately, we don't have these kinds of problems in our concrete example reproducing Abeling's patent. In our case, extra care should be taken only regarding the rigid joints which Stefan warned cause problems. These problems can be fixed by changing the properties of the rigid joint from Optimized to Measurable. That's all at this point, as far as I can see.

Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #790 on: April 15, 2009, 09:38:07 PM »
Lol this is indeed strange. The anomaly is back with that model. I even changed the pin joints with two rods and get the same numbers. Increased the accuracy and also get the same numbers. I'm clueless whether it's another wm2D quirk or the real deal. I'm going to do some force analysis to have an idea of the forces that are involved.

Attached is again a slightly tweaked model with energy calculation and more round up masses. At impact the cop is 2.2 or about 230% overunity.

Stefan even at 0.1 elasticity it gives overunity. If it doesn't just increase the mass of the spoke  ;D.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 10:30:54 PM by broli »

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #790 on: April 15, 2009, 09:38:07 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #791 on: April 15, 2009, 09:42:45 PM »
Lol this is indeed strange. The anomaly is back with that model. I even changed the pin joints with two rods and get the same numbers. Increased the accuracy and also get the same numbers. I'm clueless whether it's another wm2D quirk or the real deal. I'm going to do some force analysis to have an idea of the forces that are involved.

Attached is again a slightly tweaked model with energy calculation and more round up masses. At impact the cop is 2.2 or about 230% overunity.

Stefan even at 0.1 elasticity it gives overunity. If it doesn't just increase the mass of the spoke  ;D.

THANK GOD SOMEONE IS AWAKE.

It fits the Abeling setup.

He may not even know why it works.

The only suspicion I have is that if in the real world there is some unknown reaction to spinning bodies colliding why or how would this find its way into wm2d?

Unless it fits a mathematical model, which it does not seem to (from what I see broli)

Thanks for your help

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #792 on: April 15, 2009, 09:44:39 PM »
Hey can we make some glass with this?


Offline Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #793 on: April 15, 2009, 10:02:56 PM »

THANK GOD SOMEONE IS AWAKE.

It fits the Abeling setup.

He may not even know why it works.

The only suspicion I have is that if in the real world there is some unknown reaction to spinning bodies colliding why or how would this find its way into wm2d?

Unless it fits a mathematical model, which it does not seem to (from what I see broli)

Thanks for your help

A way of thinking out of the box (I'm not a physist or something..  :):-\


Maybe the spinning is an acumulation.. you have a weight going down an angle, rotating (spinning) will help it going faster..  Thats is a force.. because when gravity is exactly straight downwards, even a round body would only goes down.. not sideways on a ramp. An object can go sliding.. thats a lot of friction an heat. But when it starts rotating it has almost no contact or loss.. it's gaining..  It's escaping downwards gravity..  by.. Rotating.. Spinnig. 

Hope it makes sence...

So spinning.. Aquariuz..    I Like it!  ;D

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #794 on: April 15, 2009, 10:03:49 PM »
@All,

We have to solve the following problem: Is there an egg-shaped (this is how we chose to call it) contour which will ensure that at any position of the spheres in Abeling’s model the generalized mass times the generalized right-hand lever arm length (to the right of the center of mass, that is) will be persistently greater than that generalized product on the left hand side of the system center of mass. This is a slightly topological problem but also looks more like a variational problem. Wonder if that can be solved numerically by the method of least or boundary elements? Of course, an analytical solution would be much more preferable. If no such solution exists, we’re in serious trouble regarding this project. To put it bluntly, lack of a solution will simply kill the project.

 

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