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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 782604 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #765 on: April 15, 2009, 02:56:17 PM »
@broli,

I'm noticing you still use rigid joints set on Optimized. Recall, it was found out that this way they cause erroneous results and therefore have to be set to Measurable. Try to reset them and see what happens. Also try it with "Prevent model from faster than real-time" unchecked (it's in World>Preferences).

Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #766 on: April 15, 2009, 03:04:27 PM »
@broli,

I'm noticing you still use rigid joints set on Optimized. Recall, it was found out that this way they cause erroneous results and therefore have to set to Measurable. Try to reset them and see what happens. Also try it with "Prevent model from faster than rel-time" unchecked (it's in World>Preferences).
Changing it to measurable killed all the fun ;D. Looks like that was the evil doer in this case. Atleast learned another thing now.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #767 on: April 15, 2009, 03:06:02 PM »
@Cherryman,

I was playing with the model-replica of Abeling's device you made yesterday. The grooves are so tiny that if used for balls one needs to set ridiculous physical conditions. It appears that the rotor depicted in Fig.2 of the patent is only one half of a pair holding the weights. It very well may be that @AquariuZ is right and these grooves are just the guides for the axes of dumbbells and this has to be modeled in 3D, as you correctly inquired yesterday.

By the way, on the technical side -- do you know by any chance how are the extents preset so "Zoom to extents" can always give you a desired, preset, size?

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #768 on: April 15, 2009, 03:11:10 PM »
@Cherryman,

I was playing with the model-replica of Abeling's device you made yesterday. The grooves are so tiny that if used for balls one needs to set ridiculous physical conditions. It appears that the rotor depicted in Fig.2 of the patent is only one half of a pair holding the weights. It very well may be that @AquariuZ is right and these grooves are just the guides for the axes of dumbbells and this has to be modeled in 3D, as you correctly inquired yesterday.

By the way, on the technical side -- do you know by any chance how are the extents preset so "Zoom to extents" can always give you a desired, preset, size?

Yes.. the "bars" thing could be the clue with Abelings design, although IF the bars are aligned it should be replicable in WM2D as long as the bars are at the same level. 

Sorry i do not now how to set the zoom extends in a fixed way.


@Broli  Hmm thats a shame..    Can you put those wrong settings in my model attached?  I want an "working" device  ;D ;D

Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #769 on: April 15, 2009, 03:19:18 PM »

@Broli  Hmm thats a shame..    Can you put those wrong settings in my model attached?  I want an "working" device  ;D ;D


The only thing that I changed were the joints. I first changed their settings to measurable and then replaced them by pin joints like yours and the overunity stopped. But I noticed in your models that your accuracy is always kept on default. Increase the animation steps to 200 in all models and high if you want to be even more sure and keep the integration error at 0.00001 or even lower. Both can be found at Menu->World->Accuracy.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #770 on: April 15, 2009, 03:28:31 PM »
@Cherryman,

Quote
IF the bars are aligned it should be replicable in WM2D as long as the bars are at the same level

Seems the bars are at  the same level, judging from Fig. 7, but how do you do it in wm2d? Also, the egg-shaped guide for these bars has to be made precise and smooth. Can you make that egg-shaped guide (groove) exactly with the shape shown in the patent?

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #771 on: April 15, 2009, 03:36:06 PM »
@Cherryman,

It should be something like what @AquariuZ did (see attached) but with the wheel with the tiny grooves you drew yesterday and a precise oval of the egg-shaped groove. Of course, replacing the balls with dumbbells, if that's possible in wm2d.

Of course, weights, initial velocities, dimensions (200m diameter is too huge), precision and all that should also be set properly.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 04:07:11 PM by Omnibus »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #772 on: April 15, 2009, 03:53:20 PM »
Oke, If the program isn't fooling us..  Here is proof we can lift a weight back up to its same height...

 :o :o :o

Good work Aquarius!

You always use too much weight in your simulations !

A 19.5 Kg weight can not kick a 2000 Kg wheel as the simulation shows.. !
This would not work as the 2000 Kg weight would have much too much inertia.

I just tried to change the weight of the 2 wheels down to 1 or 10 Kg and
then it does not work.

You really need to watch out for your weights.

It seems WM2D has problems with big masses.

Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 04:47:07 PM by hartiberlin »

Online Grimer

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #773 on: April 15, 2009, 04:39:29 PM »
Too much cognitive dissonance I suppose.  ::)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #774 on: April 15, 2009, 04:46:16 PM »


Probably saying that centrifugal force is not a true force is a bit confusing because the body does experience it. The emphasis should be on the fact which you clearly point out that it is a reaction to a force for which you have to spend energy to create. That is, centrifugal force cannot be used to create energy. On the contrary, energy is spent to have centrifugal force appear. This has to be understood well because it causes a lot of confusion and false expectations, which is evident even in the latest posts.


Hi Omnibus,
many thanks for setting this clear.
I also mixed this up.
But to speed up a wheel from 100 RPM to 200 RPM you also have to put in energy to do this,
to overcome the inertial rotaional impulse conservation of the masses of the wheel, so you need to
spend a lot of energy to speedit up and to get a higher centifugal force.

So just converting potential energy with a ball going through some circles to create
centrifugal forces and release the ball, when the centrifugal force will have the biggest
value will not get you more energy than you spent by converting the potential height energy
mxgxh.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #775 on: April 15, 2009, 04:59:30 PM »
I'm back to practical issues. I think I said it before, this rendition by @AquariuZ (see attached) is probably the closest to the patent. I don't see why, if the dumbbell version would work, this wouldn't. What I think needs to be done first is to find a way to tweak the form of the egg-shaped groove and make it smoother. It is obvious that in its present form the egg-shaped groove is wanting.

Offline 0c

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #776 on: April 15, 2009, 05:09:30 PM »
We need a feeding system that is connected to the mainwheel, to ensure the right timing of the arriving of the weights...  I guess with having a few weights waiting in line and a kind of "thing" that's getting triggered by the wheel feeds a weight inside at the right time.  I tried several of those feeders.. But still not having a good design..  It can't be that hard..  you will see it in almost any factory with automated production lines..

Anyone got a clue??

Cherry,

This would be the next logical step in the proposal I made where the balls actually depart the wheel so there is no gravitational resistance on the ascending side. All weight on the wheel would only be on the descending side. It should be a pretty simple exercise for someone knowledgable about WM2D.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg171469#msg171469

My initial request was for a WM2D model that can demonstrate how much momentum is available to a ball if it is released at the bottom. Once we have a better idea of the ball's velocity (speed and direction), we can design a more practical return mechanism (your feeding system) to get the balls back to the top and sync with the wheel.

A major consideration will be how to recover a maximum amount of energy from a recaptured ball and transfer that energy back to the wheel. The ball will escape with a certain speed. Raising the ball against gravity will reduce that speed to something less than what it initially had when it was slung out at the bottom.

But closer to the wheel's hub, the rotational speed is slower, so we may be able to synchronize better if the balls are recaptured closer to the hub.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #777 on: April 15, 2009, 06:17:47 PM »
Correct form and smoothness of the egg-shaped groove in @AquariuZ' model seems to be the crucial step at this point. Seems that's the gist of Abeling's idea, if it's at all a working device. So how do we tweak the form of the egg-shaped groove and how do we make it smooth?

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #778 on: April 15, 2009, 06:59:27 PM »
Here's the scaled down version of @AquariuZ' model, disassembled to work on the egg-shaped groove (see attached).

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #779 on: April 15, 2009, 08:22:23 PM »
You always use too much weight in your simulations !

A 19.5 Kg weight can not kick a 2000 Kg wheel as the simulation shows.. !
This would not work as the 2000 Kg weight would have much too much inertia.

I just tried to change the weight of the 2 wheels down to 1 or 10 Kg and
then it does not work.

You really need to watch out for your weights.

It seems WM2D has problems with big masses.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan, In case you missed it....

It is essential to have a good look at this.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.

Please review this model. Mondrasek Omnibus & Broli, please your opinion too.

There is no error in the model attached, unless someone tells me otherwise.

I am currently buidling a hollow wheel with angled weights.

Again, image the axle of a dumbbell rolling over a surface which will spin that axle. Image the spin on the outer ends of the weights. Now imaging those weights being launched into their (angled) slots.

I rest my case & will post it soon. I am also writing the wm2d engineer to have a look at the attached.